The Cold Conservative

[dang71]

Here is something that has seriously bothered me for a long time. if it is true we meet Christ in all the people in our lives, if God truly speaks to us through other people, then it seems only logical that the closer we grow to Christ, the more open we become towards others, our fellow humans. a common belief is that the “conservatives” are more in line with the Church’s teachings, and therefore closer to God than the “liberals” who are separating themselves from God through their disobedience. if this is true, then why is it that i see the conservative churches being more cold and unfriendly, while the liberal churches are often more open and warm? this really bothers me because i have always tried to grow more “conservative”, more in line with our Church’s teachings, which is what i thought was growing closer to God.

i guess i just don’t understand. any one care to clue me in?

 

[Doc2be]

I think a large part of why people get the “cold” feeling from “conservative” churches is because there are different motives for going to Mass and different places along the path to holiness. Many conservative people go to Mass for Christ, He is the one and only focus and anything that would distract them from that is not sought after or really allowed. Chatting before Mass in front of Christ is seen as a distraction from God and something we should not do. Sure you can talk in the narthex or gathering area, but when you come to Mass do you come to praise and worship God or catch up on the latest gossip?

Also, after Mass, why do people feel the need to explode into talking right after, or even as, the priest is walking out. YOU ARE STILL IN THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST! He is inside you, and you can’t give him 1 minute of silence as you walk out and begin talking in the gathering area? Or for heavens sake kneel for 30 seconds and give thanks for the amazing gift that you have just received, and then walk out in silence. Just because the final greeting has been said does not mean that Christ just disappears. (Just an FYI)

Also, you only get out what you put in. Have you joined a Bible study? Have you sang in the Choir? Have you made the effort? Just because they don’t walk up to you and say Hi, does that mean that you can not walk up to them and say hello, after mass? The focus of Mass is Christ, nothing else.

Maybe it isn’t their fault at all…maybe it is just as much yours. There is a great amount of love and respect that can be communicated through silence. Do not be afraid of it…God speaks through whispers. How can you hear him if you are constantly talking?

God bless.

 

[dang71]

I think a large part of why people get the “cold” feeling from “conservative” churches is because there are different motives for going to Mass and different places along the path to holiness. Many conservative people go to Mass for Christ, He is the one and only focus and anything that would distract them from that is not sought after or really allowed. Chatting before Mass in front of Christ is seen as a distraction from God and something we should not do. Sure you can talk in the narthex or gathering area, but when you come to Mass do you come to praise and worship God or catch up on the latest gossip?

Also, after Mass, why do people feel the need to explode into talking right after, or even as, the priest is walking out. YOU ARE STILL IN THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST! He is inside you, and you can’t give him 1 minute of silence as you walk out and begin talking in the gathering area? Or for heavens sake kneel for 30 seconds and give thanks for the amazing gift that you have just received, and then walk out in silence. Just because the final greeting has been said does not mean that Christ just disappears. (Just an FYI)

Also, you only get out what you put in. Have you joined a Bible study? Have you sang in the Choir? Have you made the effort? Just because they don’t walk up to you and say Hi, does that mean that you can not walk up to them and say hello, after mass? The focus of Mass is Christ, nothing else.

Maybe it isn’t their fault at all…maybe it is just as much yours. There is a great amount of love and respect that can be communicated through silence. Do not be afraid of it…God speaks through whispers. How can you hear him if you are constantly talking?

God bless.

it was not my intent to tick you off, my apologies. i am just trying to understand and explain what i see. i have never advocated chit-chatting in front of the tabernacle, my apologies for not being more descriptive. but why is it that we can’t talk outside before or after Mass? isn’t that what the parish community is, at least partly, about?
yes, i have tried to open up to people, and usually the only response i get to my smile and hello is a small return smile, nod hello and then a quick turn away. yes i have tried to get involved (but believe me, you don’t want me in the choir ).
maybe you’re right, maybe i am just an unapproachable leper…

 

[Doc2be]

it was not my intent to tick you off, my apologies. i am just trying to understand and explain what i see. i have never advocated chit-chatting in front of the tabernacle, my apologies for not being more descriptive. but why is it that we can’t talk outside before or after Mass? isn’t that what the parish community is, at least partly, about?
yes, i have tried to open up to people, and usually the only response i get to my smile and hello is a small return smile, nod hello and then a quick turn away. yes i have tried to get involved (but believe me, you don’t want me in the choir ).
maybe you’re right, maybe i am just an unapproachable leper…

I am sorry you thought I was angry. Maybe a little frustrated at some points, but far from angry. Poor writing ability, sorry.

Do people, in your experience, not go outside before and after mass to talk? At every parish I have been apart of they did leave and gather some where else for coffee and donuts or meetings or just to talk. One they did this in the Church while others were trying to pray and maybe that is where some of the frustration came in.

Yes, I agree with you the parish community is just that, a community. I am sorry that you have not had an opening experience. I guess I was just trying to see it from the other side in that the person nodded and smiled back, to be kind, but maybe they were deep in prayer or in some meditation, it happens. On the other hand, not all people are out going. One way I try to see is that even if that person does not show me the most open welcome maybe they are deep in prayer for me and our community and through that we are closer than even the warmest welcome can make us.

I am sorry too, I did not mean to come off like you were an unapproachable leper. I have just had a lot of people my age get disillusioned with the Church because we don’t sing and dance and move as if we are “filled the Holy Spirit.” While they are just sitting there and not putting anything into their faith…they just expect it to come to them without any effort. I guess that is just what my generation wants, everything with as little effort as possible. So, most of that was frustration and I know this is not exactly what you are talking about, so slightly off topic.

 

[Ocarm]

a common belief is that the “conservatives” are more in line with the Church’s teachings, and therefore closer to God than the “liberals” who are separating themselves from God through their disobedience. if this is true, then why is it that i see the conservative churches being more cold and unfriendly, while the liberal churches are often more open and warm?

Don’t know whether this helps, but - I’m not convinced that this is about ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’; and anyhow, coming from a different country, I’d say we use those words in a somewhat different way, in any event, so they don’t necessarily have the same connotations for me. But I think it is about emphasis, and what gains primacy in a particular church, that will determine the atmosphere there.

The Jesuit priest Gerard Hughes makes a very interesting observation in his book ‘God of Surprises’ about how most Catholics have a problem balancing the different aspects of our faith - he identifies mysticism, legalism and criticism as necessary parts of our religious observance, and looks at the problems that can develop if one is given too great a prominence over the others. If you become too critical, you ignore rules, and can lack the kind of charity that comes from prayer and full participation in the sacraments; if you become too legalistic, you emphasise rules to the exclusion of mystical experience and become resistant to change or development, even changes ordered by the hierarchy; if you give first place to mysticism or charismatic approaches, you can ignore the established liturgy of the church and damage relationships within the parish if some people don’t go along with the approach.

Hughes isn’t saying that there’s anything wrong with rules, change or an interest in the mystical - we very much need all of them, in appropriate ways, and in bigger or smaller doses at different times to address particular problems. But none of them will work if separated from the others, or if allowed to become too central. Jesus balanced orthodoxy, prayer and a devastating critique of the structures around him, and lived the perfect life. I guess we have to try and do the same, even though its much easier said than done.

 

[onetruechurch]

Have you ever seen the movie, “Into the Silence”? It is a documentary of life in a monestary in the Alps. I would call these monks very holy and conservative. They know they are loved by their fellow monks even though they don’t say a word to each other. Their love of God radiates throughout the silent monestary. It is an amazing movie if you think you can sit through 2 hours of silence.
I have been told that the substance of the host remains in our bodies for about seven minutes. That is why I love going to daily mass where I can stay after for about seven minutes to be with Our Lord. The last thing I want to do is chit chat with anyone but Christ. Sunday mass is much more distracting so I don’t stay after on Sundays. I am probably the opposite of you because I much prefer daily mass where I can sit by myself and have no distractions during mass.

 

[Cluny]

I have been told that the substance of the host remains in our bodies for about seven minutes

Then you were told wrong.

The substance of the host is replaced with the Substance of the Body and Blood of Christ at the Consecration.

Hence “transsubstantiation.”

 

[turtle18]

Don’t be deceived by emotion. What is love anyway? The highest form of love you have for your brother or sister is to want them to go to heaven, to spend all eternity with our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ–this can cause a lot of trial, grief and apparent disharmony. That is why Jesus said, "do not think I have come to bring peace to the world but rather set mother against daughter…etc.

But remember what is apparent on the surface (disharmony) can be deceptive. The real workings of the spiritual world are so often hidden from us as evident in the crucifixtion. It is what is on the interior that counts.

 

[Monica4316]

Hi,
well personally for me, I don’t really talk after Mass just because I want to pray and spend some time with Jesus after receiving Him. However later on, I do go and talk with my friends and others I meet. It’s hard sometimes right after Mass though. And before Mass, I’m trying to prepare for it, lol.

 

[dang71]

so i agree we shouldn’t treat Mass-time as social-hour, but this doesn’t mean we have to exclude being friendly to one another, this doesn’t mean you can’t actually smile in a friendly manner when you pass someone on your way to the pew, this doesn’t mean you can’t actually say hello or how are you on the way to or from the car.

i’m a bit torn on the responses i have received. while i do think it is good to be reverent and prayerful, it seems focusing solely on “me and Jesus” is not exactly what the Mass is about. Jesus said “where-ever two or three gather in My Name, there I am”, and the Mass is all about us gathering together. if it were only about “me and Jesus”, then why gather together at all?

i guess i’m just really dumb, because i don’t really understand the “it’s all about me” answers i have received in regards to the Mass.

 

[Monica4316]

so i agree we shouldn’t treat Mass-time as social-hour, but this doesn’t mean we have to exclude being friendly to one another, this doesn’t mean you can’t actually smile in a friendly manner when you pass someone on your way to the pew, this doesn’t mean you can’t actually say hello or how are you on the way to or from the car.

i’m a bit torn on the responses i have received. while i do think it is good to be reverent and prayerful, it seems focusing solely on “me and Jesus” is not exactly what the Mass is about. Jesus said “where-ever two or three gather in My Name, there I am”, and the Mass is all about us gathering together. if it were only about “me and Jesus”, then why gather together at all?

i guess i’m just really dumb, because i don’t really understand the “it’s all about me” answers i have received in regards to the Mass.

Hi, I totally understand what you mean about smiling at other people when you pass them on the way to your pew, etc! that’s fine to do. once I’m at my pew though, it’s all about prayer from there it’s not really “me and Jesus” but “me and Jesus and Mary and the Saints and angels” cause we’re participating in heavenly worship at Mass. Jesus is physically present before us. I think the Mass is more about that: the sacrifice and the Sacrament, and worship, than it is about community… (community comes after Mass, once we have received the Lord we can share His love with others) but I don’t know… that’s just how I look at it, and I know other people have different views.

 

[dang71]

Sunday mass is much more distracting so I don’t stay after on Sundays. I am probably the opposite of you because I much prefer daily mass where I can sit by myself and have no distractions during mass.

this has stuck in my mind since you wrote this. i don’t intend to be abusive or offensive, but i find it really sad that you think your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ are distractions. aren’t we to see Christ in others, aren’t we to BE Christ to others?

didn’t Christ say “Whatever you do unto the least of my brothers, you do unto ME” ?

 

[FCEGM]

this has stuck in my mind since you wrote this. i don’t intend to be abusive or offensive, but i find it really sad that you think your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ are distractions. aren’t we to see Christ in others, aren’t we to BE Christ to others?

didn’t Christ say “Whatever you do unto the least of my brothers, you do unto ME” ?

The focus of the Mass is (or should be) Our Eucharistic Lord, not each other. If our brothers and sisters in the church are a distraction (or if we, ourselves, are a distraction for others) then our focus isn’t centered on Him, rather than on their intrusions into what is supposed to be a unified worship of Him. If our focus remains on Him in the Liturgy, than we more easily translate that worship into charity in our daily interactions.

 

[dang71]

i guess i’m just not cold and unfriendly enough to be a good Catholic.

 

[drforjc]

“Conservative Catholics” (I don’t care for the term but since the OP uses it…) come in a wide variety of personalities. I really don’t see how stereotyping them is helpful.
Many that may come across as somewhat “cold” at Mass are very caring and loving persons who are actively involved in helping the poor and sick and other forms of charitable service. As others have pointed out, perhaps the common denominator is that they are focused on God at Mass. Remember, the context of Jesus’ statement about “whatever you do to the least…” is directly tied to the works of mercy, not about the celebration of the liturgy per se.
To me, Mass is more about Mary than Martha… not that we should never show hospitality inside the church building proper, but (read then-Cardinal Ratzinger’s The Spirit of the Liturgy) the focus of the liturgy is the encounter with God. True, the whole community worships God together, but at some level our self-unconsciousness when we focus on God brings us more into authentic community than forced niceties.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I will agree that cultural/political conservatism is NOT the same thing as Christianity, though too many people in the USA have confused the two.

But for that matter, the same thing happens in Moslem countries, doesn’t it? The clerics in Tehran have said in so many words that to be against the regime (which is run by them) is to fight against the entity they call Allah.

Like most people, I’m liberal in some things and conservative in others (especially doctrine).

One reason I don’t listen to conservative pundits any more is the shrill, mean-spirited tone they’ve taken lately.

But liberals likewise screech and wail.

 

[FCEGM]

i guess i’m just not cold and unfriendly enough to be a good Catholic.

It is a great error to equate authentic piety with coldness and lack of human warmth towards others. If our priorities are in place - God and neighbor, not neighbor and then God - then His charity flows through our encounters with others. In our liturgical worship we are not there together to gaze in a mirror and celebrate ourselves; we are there to participate in the re-presentation of Our Lord’s Sacrifice - not exactly a time for “hail-fellow-well-met”.

In his book Trojan Horse in the City of God, the late theologian and philosopher, Dietrich von Hildebrand writes cogently on the problem:

"There is a . . . denial of human nature and a correlative supernaturalism in those who overemphasize Christ’s presence in our neighbor and claim that it matters little whether we direct ourselves to Jesus Christ Himself or encounter Him in our neighbor. True as it is that we should find Christ in our neighbor, there is nevertheless a vast distance between our communion with Christ Himself and our finding Him in our neighbor. To be united in a direct I-Thou communion with Jesus Christ, the Infinitely Holy One, should be the great longing of our lives, the beatitude we are hoping for. To place finding Christ in our neighbor - even in the most insignificant or evil man - on the same level with our direction communion with Him is to misunderstand both human nature and Christian experience. In the first place there is a radical difference between the way in which a saint reflects Christ and the way in which He is found in any average person. The saints radiate something of Christ’s holiness. We then can directly taste the very quality of holiness. But seeing Christ in lesser man results from sheer faith.

Moreover, . . .finding Christ in our neighbor necessarily presupposed a direct relation with Christ Himself. It is only because Christ has said, “What you have done to the least of my brethren, you have done to me,” that we are able to find Christ in our neighbor in spice of all the obstacles which our neighbor may place in our path. And it is too often forgotten that Christ’s words refer to our actions toward our neighbor, and not to and unique blissful experience of the love communion with Christ. It may perhaps be arguable that actions done to our neighbor literally are done to Christ. But it is impossible to maintain that our beatitude is accomplished as much in communion with our neighbor as with Christ. The encountering of Christ in our neighbor is a feat of charity, and charity, we repeat, constitutes itself in the direct I-Thou communion with Christ.

I suggest you look at the piety of the Saints (e.g., St. Teresa of Jesus, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. Philip Neri, and Mother Teresa of Calcutta to name just a very few) and the great charity that flowed from their communion with Christ. THAT is the human warmth which transforms each encounter with others, not the pseudo-“luv” that too often passes for the genuine article.

 

[treeleaf]

Also, after Mass, why do people feel the need to explode into talking right after, or even as, the priest is walking out. YOU ARE STILL IN THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST! He is inside you, and you can’t give him 1 minute of silence as you walk out and begin talking in the gathering area? Or for heavens sake kneel for 30 seconds and give thanks for the amazing gift that you have just received, and then walk out in silence. Just because the final greeting has been said does not mean that Christ just disappears. (Just an FYI)

This bugs me too. I grew up in an African country where everyone conducted themselves respectfully in Mass and were silent until outside. I now live in a European country where everyone talks before, during and very loudly afterwards (when the Priest is barely out the door). Can’t get used to it here.

 

[dang71]

the more answers people give in this thread, the less i feel like i belong in the Catholic church. you know, my wife and i have been invited to protestant churches and the people are so nice and caring and friendly, and we go to the Catholic church and nobody will even look at you. how can people claim this is the “one true church” when nobody has any care in the world for anyone else? every Sunday i just grow more and more disgusted, and i am seriously looking elsewhere for a decent church where people actually CARE about others.

 

[treeleaf]

the more answers people give in this thread, the less i feel like i belong in the Catholic church. you know, my wife and i have been invited to protestant churches and the people are so nice and caring and friendly, and we go to the Catholic church and nobody will even look at you. how can people claim this is the “one true church” when nobody has any care in the world for anyone else? every Sunday i just grow more and more disgusted, and i am seriously looking elsewhere for a decent church where people actually CARE about others.

Sorry - didn’t mean my answer to have this effect! In both Churches I mentioned most of the people are friendly and caring, I just personally prefer it when noone chats in the church itself so that people who want to sit quietly and pray can do so, but don’t see any problem with them doing it outside when Mass is over ofcourse. Before going to a protestant church why not try a different Catholic church. They can’t all be like the one you go to where nobody at all is in the least bit friendly.