The Collective Messiah

[Gabriel_of_12]

There is no other New Covenant made with Israel beyond the one Jeremiah refers to in Jeremiah 31:31.

So when Israel failed the covenant; it never got renewed? Jeremiah hid the ark of the covenant; Tell me has your new covenant come yet? or are you still waiting for the revelation of the ark of the covenant? Read Revelation 11:19 and there you will find a fulfillment of Jeremiah when a first century Jew located the ark of the covenant in the new Jerusalem with the new Israel in the New and everlasting covenant.

**The Prophet-like-Moses in Deuteronomy 18:15 was Joshua. That’s not a prophecy. Moses was informing and preparing the People by enhancing Joshua’s credibility to be accepted as Moses was. **

So tell me did Joshua ever change the water as Jesus did changing water into wine, as Moses changed water into blood, Moses at birth was sought to be executed, Jesus was sought to be executed by the Jewish King puppet Herod. Did Joshua ever bring living waters from the Rock as Jesus did and still does today through his Catholic Church, there are far too many parallels between Jesus and Moses than Joshua and Moses. Moses delivered the exodus of God’s people from slavery, Jesus delivered humanity from certain death into life eternity into the true promise land in eternity in the eternal Sabbath rest in heaven with “Abba Father”.

It is God’s loving and merciful way to include every tongue nation and people in his New Covenant. If your New Covenant does not include all of God’s people and creation then your new covenant is still in the creation phase of the six day.

The Covenant over all of God’s Creation was the Noahite Covenant. This of a Christian New Covenant was fabricated by Paul to enhance his Christology.

Iam amazed that you give so much credit to a first century Jew who persecuted Christians by the authority of the Jewish leaders making a false claim 2000 years later that Paul instituted the Christian faith? Come on Ben, your assertion about Paul leaves you in the dark about True Christianity. Paul is in heaven now, it makes no sense to keep the flame against him since he converted most of the middle East to Christianity, Paul was not the founder of Christianity, you have to get pass this false claim you make; no one in all of Christendom believes you when you make such a false claim.

I would like to mention here also that we are not speaking on the same level of scripture interpretation. Thus far I have spoken by Hebrew and Christian interpretations of he bible. You apparently have taken your own interpretation of the bible texts.

You are describing the New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one in Jeremiah 31:31-34. It has nothing to do with baptism or Gentiles. The Noahite Covenant is the one for the Gentiles.

Yes I am describing the New Covenant as does the prophet; Where we disagree is the biblical interpretation of the scripture; Iam using the Interpretation Jesus a first century Jew revealed on how Moses and the Prophets spoke of his coming and establishing a New and everlasting covenant in his own blood.

Again Interpretation is key to understanding Literal which is the Old Covenant and Spiritual which includes both the reality of the Old Covenant revealed in the New Covenant. This is one reason God became incarnate which combined the natural (old covenant law )of his body fulfilled by his divinity present (New Covenant) eliminating that enmity between Jew and Gentile and removing that enmity between God and humanity “ONCE AND FOR ALL”.

There you come again with this mythological incarnation of God.That’s an alien doctrine to Judaism.

The Spiritual aspect of the New Covenant is definitely alien to the Old Covenant is you choose to remain there. The New Covenant combines both the natural (flesh) Old Covenant with Spiritual eternal making the incarnation of God present before all his creation. That is why Jesus (Emmanuel) came incarnate to bring fallen man who could not keep the covenant into a New Covenant. If the old covenant sufficed humanity, there would not be no need for a New Covenant of which the Prophets spoke of;

Uniting these in his full humanity/ full Divinity in Jesus Christ. This is what all the Law and prophets pointed too since the fall of man. When God would unite Man with him in the 7th day of creation. So the New Covenant begins on the 8th day a new creation in the first day after Jesus rested his humanity (old covenant) on the Sabbath, raising to eternal life on the Lords Day the 8th day according to the law of the old covenant is when God will reveal himself to Israel on the 8th day.

This is what I call a gospel of assumptions without any basis at all in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle.

Maybe the comment surpassed your understanding of a Covenant relationship with the almighty. Since the fall of man, Adam who broke the cosmic covenant with God. How do you suppose God will break down that dividing wall from the fall of humanity before any Jew ever existed, back to rest in the almighty? Maybe putting it in a question may clarify my comment that is greatly supported by both Old and New testament scritpures.

 

[Ben_Masada]

No, because your hypothetical does not make sense. How could Samuel read about something in a book, believes what the book says and does not believe the book? He believes what Paul says about Jesus but does not believe Paul? In that case, his belief is like what one believes after seeing a movie.

 

[Ben_Masada]

People are unique, different personalities effect approaches and techniques. Paul was dynamic, he even clashed with Peter on certain issues.

And you can say that again for I agree with you.

Paul’s earlier Hebrew name was Saul. He was “of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee.

**Paul was never a Pharisee in his life. The only time Paul showed up before the Sanhedrin was as a criminal. And he lost his case because he started his defense with a lie: That he was a Pharisee. If he had been a Pharisee, he would have no need to identify himself as such. Pharisees were a small group in Israel, and everyone was well-known as such, especially by the Sanhedrin. He was lucky not to be killed because he claimed his Roman citizenship by applying to Caesar. **

Saul violently persecuted Christians prior to his conversion to Christianity.

**Paul never in his life persecuted a single Christian. One does not found a church to persecute the adepts. Christians started with Paul. (Acts 11:26) He used to persecute the Nazarenes, members of the “New Way” in synagogues of the Jews in Damascus.(Acts 9:1-3) **

“Whatever trait a person displays in one type of action that is habitual, that person will tend to display in every other type of habitual action” (Dr. Hal Falcon). It would be expected that Paul’s enthusiasm and dynamic nature would still be intact after his conversion.

Paul in a word, was cunny. A dynamic religious genius.

It is certainly understandable how some Jewish people can become offended with certain annotations. I have a friend who is a Rabbi. His primary objection is how some Catholics believe that Jews can not enter Heaven because the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. My reply to him was, there are several Bible quotes that assert that, but it might be wise to go straight to the source, what Jesus Himself said.

And who wrote what Jesus said, Hellenistic Gentiles, about 50+ years after Jesus had been gone? Very debatable. Then, I wonder what kind of Rabbi is this friend of yours who worries about getting to Heaven when we don’t believe in afterlife.

Matthew 19:16 tells us of a rich man who came to Jesus and asked: “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus replied, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments”. It was when the rich man asked: “What do I still lack?”, when Jesus told him to sell everything and give the proceeds to the poor and follow him. According to Jesus’ reply, keeping the commandments was adequate. Selling everything and following Him was the above and beyond.

First of all, this sounds like one of Jesus’ parables. Second, it sounds like a criticism to the Jewish gift to accumulate material assets. And last but not least, I am glad Jesus’ first answer was obedience to the Law. The same happened with the parable of the Richman and Lazarus, whose bottom line was to listen to Moses or the Law, in order to escape hell. (Luke 16:28-31)

God Bless

 

[Ben_Masada]

So when Israel failed the covenant; it never got renewed? Jeremiah hid the ark of the covenant; Tell me has your new covenant come yet? or are you still waiting for the revelation of the ark of the covenant? Read Revelation 11:19 and there you will find a fulfillment of Jeremiah when a first century Jew located the ark of the covenant in the new Jerusalem with the new Israel in the New and everlasting covenant.

What First Century Jew, you are talking about, who found the Ark of the Covenant? It doesn’t occur to me to have ever heard about such a thing.

So tell me did Joshua ever change the water as Jesus did changing water into wine, as Moses changed water into blood,

Who told you this, the Hellenistic writers of the gospels 50+ years after Jesus had been gone? You believe too fast in legends.

Moses at birth was sought to be executed, Jesus was sought to be executed by the Jewish King puppet Herod.

Luke in his book of Acts to Theophilus, declared that he had written everything about Jesus from the beginning to the end of his life and ignores the slaughther of the children with the purpose to get Jesus. How do you explain this? Matthew must have fabricated this one to document Jesus with a prophecy to show that Jesus was a second Moses. The name is plagiarism.

Did Joshua ever bring living waters from the Rock as Jesus did and still does today through his Catholic Church, there are far too many parallels between Jesus and Moses than Joshua and Moses.

Now, this is what I call church poppycock.

Moses delivered the exodus of God’s people from slavery, Jesus delivered humanity from certain death into life eternity into the true promise land in eternity in the eternal Sabbath rest in heaven with “Abba Father”

Jesus never delivered anyone into eternal life, because only God is eternal. Moses, as a Messianic leader brought the Messiah from Egypt to Canaan. Cyrus, as a Messianic leader proclaimed the end of the Babylonian exile and financed the rebuilding of the Temple. Herzl, as a Messianic leader inspired the Messiah with love for Zion, and we are back in the Land of Israel. With the coming of Jesus the Jews were rather expelled to the four corners of the earth. Even as a Messianic leader he could not classify..

Iam amazed that you give so much credit to a first century Jew who persecuted Christians by the authority of the Jewish leaders making a false claim 2000 years later that Paul instituted the Christian faith?

If Christians did not start with Paul, there is contradiction in your NT. The text is very clear in Acts 11:26, that the disciples were first called Christians with Paul because he was preaching about Jesus as Christ.

Yes I am describing the New Covenant as does the prophet; Where we disagree is the biblical interpretation of the scripture; Iam using the Interpretation Jesus a first century Jew revealed on how Moses and the Prophets spoke of his coming and establishing a New and everlasting covenant in his own blood.

And the only evidence you have that Moses and the Prophets spoke about Jesus are empty assumptions without any basis of truth. Show me one evidence that could be fulfilled only by Jesus, and we are in business.

Maybe the comment surpassed your understanding of a Covenant relationship with the almighty. Since the fall of man, Adam who broke the cosmic covenant with God. How do you suppose God will break down that dividing wall from the fall of humanity before any Jew ever existed, back to rest in the almighty? Maybe putting it in a question may clarify my comment that is greatly supported by both Old and New testament scritpures.

You are right. I have no idea of what you are talking about.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Yes, one of them is the NT. About 20 percent convincing but it cannot be the Word of God. The only Word of God Jesus himself acknowledged was the Tanach.

That would be unsurprising given that the NT hadn’t been written yet but for our purposes here, your answer will suffice.

Bubbua:

So what do think it was that led the Rabbinical Jews to persecute Jews like Samuel in 1C AD?

The Rabbinical Jews never persecuted Jews like Samuel. Samuel did not confess to belong to a different religious Faith.

In fact, both the NT and the Mishnah record the persecution of Jewish Christians starting with Jesus himself and proceeding through until the destruction of Israel. Both the pre-Rabbinical Sadducees and Pharisees and the later Rabbinical Jews.

So the question is why? What was it about Jesus, his apostles and disciples, that aroused the enmity of Jewish authorities if Paul, your preferred scapegoat, was operating outside Israel? And since Jewish Christians in Israel were a target of the Jewish authorities from the start then your accusations against Paul look ridiculous. You may not like Paul but he does not account for the Jewish persecution of Jewish Christians.

And, lest you think Jews are above such things, go study Macabees which was, as much as anything else, a Jewish civil war between helenized and non-helenized Jews. Or read about the intra-Jewish conflict that preciptated Roman entry into Israel.

Bubbua:

That would be two requirements, not alternative requiements. You claim in one place that Jews don’t need to practice Judaism and, in another place, that they must. Which is it?

Jews do not need to practice Judaism to retain their Jewish identity. Secular Jews are Jewish.

Then you are simply defining a Jew by tribal affiliation. That would be ok if it were not for your desire to expel Messianic Jews.

Bubbua:

All of that occured outside Israel among the gentiles. What led the Jewish authorities to persecute their fellow Jews in Israel?

Jews in Israel do not persecute their felow Jews.

You obviously do not watch the news or read history.

Hyphenated “Jews” are not Jewish.

So Israeli Jews are not Jewish?

Bubbua:

Here is something that may be new to you: (mostly secular) diaspora Jews are coming to agree with this position. There is a growing belief that the founding of modern Israel was a mistake. The basis of this belief is that the purpose of Israel was to provide a sanctuary for Jews (after the Holocaust). This is proving not to be the case and so they are rethinking the Zionist enterprise and dropping support for Israel from thieir list of priorities.

The Land of Israel as a sanctuary for Jews has indeed proved to be the case. Your slander is based on the fact that we do not acknowledge as Jews those who have betrayed Judaism by confessing religious loyalty to another Faith.

You asked me to tell you something you didin’t now. I am speaking here of secular Jews, which you previously claimed were still Jewish. For secular Jews (e.g. those who founded modern Israel), the purpose of Israel is merely sanctuary, there is no religious dimension. And as Israel is proving to be a detriment rather than sanctuary it is losing support among younger secular Jews. Not only are many emigrating to safer places but they are experiencing probelms outside Israel on account of Israel.

 

[Ben_Masada]

That would be unsurprising given that the NT hadn’t been written yet but for our purposes here, your answer will suffice.

Lucky guys were Paul and his disciples. If Jesus had been around, they would not be able to write the heresies they wrote about him.

In fact, both the NT and the Mishnah record the persecution of Jewish Christians starting with Jesus himself and proceeding through until the destruction of Israel. Both the pre-Rabbinical Sadducees and Pharisees and the later Rabbinical Jews.

There is no such a thing as Jewish Christians or Christian Jews. A Jew is a Jew or he is not.

So the question is why? What was it about Jesus, his apostles and disciples, that aroused the enmity of Jewish authorities if Paul, your preferred scapegoat, was operating outside Israel?

You could have asked the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the gospels if they were around. Why would they fabricate such a thing if they were not in Israel to withness anything.

And since Jewish Christians in Israel were a target of the Jewish authorities from the start then your accusations against Paul look ridiculous. You may not like Paul but he does not account for the Jewish persecution of Jewish Christians.

There was never persecution of Christians by Jews. Of Paul yes, because he was preaching the Hellenistic heresy of a demigod in Jerusalem.

And, lest you think Jews are above such things, go study Macabees which was, as much as anything else, a Jewish civil war between helenized and non-helenized Jews. Or read about the intra-Jewish conflict that preciptated Roman entry into Israel.

Good! Now, you can understand why the Jewish authorities were right not to allow Paul to return to Israel.

Then you are simply defining a Jew by tribal affiliation. That would be ok if it were not for your desire to expel Messianic Jews.

**So-called “Messianic Jews” are not Jewish. They are Christians. **

You obviously do not watch the news or read history.

There are criminals everywhere. Also among Catholics.

So Israeli Jews are not Jewish?

I don’t think you know what you are talking about. Why write posts just to have something to chit-chat?

You asked me to tell you something you didin’t now. I am speaking here of secular Jews, which you previously claimed were still Jewish. For secular Jews (e.g. those who founded modern Israel), the purpose of Israel is merely sanctuary, there is no religious dimension. And as Israel is proving to be a detriment rather than sanctuary it is losing support among younger secular Jews. Not only are many emigrating to safer places but they are experiencing probelms outside Israel on account of Israel.

You repeat the same thing over and over again. Why is that?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Bubba:

So the question is why? What was it about Jesus, his apostles and disciples, that aroused the enmity of Jewish authorities if Paul, your preferred scapegoat, was operating outside Israel?..And since Jewish Christians in Israel were a target of the Jewish authorities from the start then your accusations against Paul look ridiculous. You may not like Paul but he does not account for the Jewish persecution of Jewish Christians.

You could have asked the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the gospels if they were around. Why would they fabricate such a thing if they were not in Israel to withness anything…There was never persecution of Christians by Jews. Of Paul yes, because he was preaching the Hellenistic heresy of a demigod in Jerusalem.

So your rewriting of history includes persecution of Jewish Christians in Israel by the Jewish authorities? Are you unfamiliar with Judaism’s own records of this period?

Stephen was not a Pauline Christian.

Bubba:

Then you are simply defining a Jew by tribal affiliation. That would be ok if it were not for your desire to expel Messianic Jews.

So-called “Messianic Jews” are not Jewish. They are Christians.

Setting aside the slander inherent in that statement, they are Jewish by blood and by practice. I don’t know all the variations of Messianic Judaism, I’m sure some would qualify as Chistian in the modern sense, but I know some are more like the Ebbonites who simply held that Jesus was the Messiah.

But if ones does not need to practice Judaism to be Jewish then the most obvious question how Messianic Jews can be expelled from Judaism. (Other than, of course, by Rabbinical “authority” that singles them out for special persecution.)

And if a Jew can believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that he rose from the dead then at what point does Christianity cross the line? What is it that you ascribe to Paul that is beyond the pale? The only thing you’ve identified so far is the dogma of the Trinity which was not established dogma until the Nicene Creed in 325AD. (And, in fact, there were many interesting debates in the early church in regards to the rlationship of Jesus and God.)

So what was Paul’s crime against Judaism that merrited persecution?

Bubba:

You obviously do not watch the news or read history.

There are criminals everywhere. Also among Catholics.

And sometimes among the Jewish authorities.

Bubba:

So Israeli Jews are not Jewish?

I don’t think you know what you are talking about. Why write posts just to have something to chit-chat?

You claimed that “hyphenated” Jews are not real Jews. I’m wondering if that is a general rule or if you are merely singling out Jewish Christians and Messianic Jews in your pogram.

Bubba:

You asked me to tell you something you didin’t now. I am speaking here of secular Jews, which you previously claimed were still Jewish. For secular Jews (e.g. those who founded modern Israel), the purpose of Israel is merely sanctuary, there is no religious dimension. And as Israel is proving to be a detriment rather than sanctuary it is losing support among younger secular Jews. Not only are many emigrating to safer places but they are experiencing probelms outside Israel on account of Israel.

You repeat the same thing over and over again. Why is that?

You seem bent on denying reality and historical fact.

 

[Insight]

Paul was never a Pharisee in his life.

It is impossible to imagine that Paul could write numerous letters and traverse the land of Palestine from one end to another (several times giving speeches to large educated crowds) without someone calling this proposed bluff of being a Pharisee.

Saul left Tarsus and came to the Land of Israel, where he studied in the Pharisee academy of Gamaliel (Acts 22:3). Gamaliel, was a highly respected figure in the rabbinical writings such as the Mishnah, and was given the title “Rabban”, as the leading sage of his day. What you are claiming is tantamount to some charlatan giving seminars in front of large groups of professors under the pretence that he Graduated Suma Cumb Laude from Harvard. Someone is going to challenge or follow up the claim. There were Chief Priests, members of the Sanhedrin, Pharisees and Scribes present during Paul’s speeches, no one raised their hand and said: “Oh no you weren’t”.

“If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless" (Paul’s Letter to the Philippians 3:4-6).

Paul never in his life persecuted a single Christian

“You have heard, no doubt, of my earlier life in Judaism. I was violently persecuting the church of God and was trying to destroy it. I advanced in Judaism beyond many among my people of the same age, for I was far more zealous for the traditions of my ancestors" (Paul’s Letter to the Galatians 1:13-14).

"He had set out from Jerusalem for Syrian Damascus around the year 36, with letters from the high priest authorizing him to arrest followers of Jesus of Nazareth whom he could find living in the city of Damascus. He was to bring them back to Jerusalem in chains for questioning and possible execution.

Before St. Paul’s conversion, his name was Saul. In the year 35, Saul appears as a self-righteous young Pharisee, almost fanatically anti-Christian. He believed the trouble-making new sect should be stamped out and its adherents punished.
How does Paul’s being a Pharisee affect his life choices?
He studied under the great and wise Gamaliel at the famous Rabbinic School of his time. Saul was an enthusiastic student who studied with great zeal because he took seriously the Pharisaic axiom that an ignorant man cannot be holy.
We learn of Saul’s great zeal when he says: “I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age, so extremely zealous was I for the tradition of my father.” (Gal. 1:14).
Gamaliel would have taught his students to keep away from those involved in the Jesus movement. “In the present case I tell you, keep away from these men, and let them alone. For if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail. But if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God” (Acts 5:38-39).
The Pharisees in general developed a wait and see attitude.
Saul was to see very clearly what this Jesus movement implied. The Pharisee thought this movement would just fade away if given no opposition. The Christians in Jerusalem thought they were normal Jews and they continued to frequent the Temple.
Saul could not understand how the Pharisees could accept such thinking. At this point we are able to see one of Paul’s gifts and that is his ability to go to the heart of the problem. He uses this gift over and over again after his conversion experience as well.
Saul saw how the Christians wanted to believe that it was a both-and-situation. They could be Jewish and Christian. Saul saw that this was an either-or-situation that permitted no tolerance.
There would be winners and losers. There would be no fence sitting.
Saul knew that Christians did really know what they were doing to the Jewish tradition by proclaiming Jesus was the Messiah because this meant that Jesus was necessary for salvation. Thus, Christians were saying that the Law did not guarantee salvation and this was a basic belief of the Pharisees. Jews did not need two saviors.
They were either saved by the Law or they were saved by the Messiah.
There is no doubt on which side Saul stood. He lived and breathed the Law night and day. Besides this, Jesus did not resemble the Messiah the Pharisees expected. There expectation was based on the Psalms of Solomon. He was to be a king from the Son of David who would rid the nation of enemies and restore Jerusalem.
This did not happen with Jesus so his followers were obviously wrong and thus needed to be corrected. This duty Saul took upon himself and it was proof of his zeal for the Law. (Phil. 1:3-6)
The gifts and character that we see in Saul will continue after his conversion; however, they will be directed in different directions. His eyes and heart will be set on Christ and the love that transformed his life. It will be the “love of Christ which impels him” (2 Co. 5:14)."

dioceseofmarquette.org/upcarticle.asp?upcID=1746

God Bless

 

[mbgumby28]

Zechariah 9:9 perfectly describes Jesus’s coming into Jerusalem.

 

[Ben_Masada]

So your rewriting of history includes persecution of Jewish Christians in Israel by the Jewish authorities? Are you unfamiliar with Judaism’s own records of this period?

Yes, enough to say that there was never such a thing as Jewish Christians in our records.

Stephen was not a Pauline Christian.

Of course not! At his time, if he ever existed at all, there were no Christians.

Setting aside the slander inherent in that statement, they are Jewish by blood and by practice. I don’t know all the variations of Messianic Judaism, I’m sure some would qualify as Chistian in the modern sense, but I know some are more like the Ebbonites who simply held that Jesus was the Messiah.

If these Ebbeonites existed before Paul, they never held that Jesus was the Messiah.

But if ones does not need to practice Judaism to be Jewish then the most obvious question how Messianic Jews can be expelled from Judaism. (Other than, of course, by Rabbinical “authority” that singles them out for special persecution.)

I wish you didn’t have to repeat your same questions over and over again. I hate to have to give the same answers over and over again. “Messianic Jews” were never expelled from Judaism because they were never a part of Judaism in the first place.

And if a Jew can believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that he rose from the dead then at what point does Christianity cross the line?

When the prospect confesses his or her religious loyalty to another faith.

What is it that you ascribe to Paul that is beyond the pale? The only thing you’ve identified so far is the dogma of the Trinity which was not established dogma until the Nicene Creed in 325AD. (And, in fact, there were many interesting debates in the early church in regards to the rlationship of Jesus and God.)

Paul was the first to preach in Jerusalem about Jesus as son of God, and this is pagan Mythology.

So what was Paul’s crime against Judaism that merrited persecution?

To teach the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children, and to quit the Jewish customs. Read Acts 21:21.

You claimed that “hyphenated” Jews are not real Jews. I’m wondering if that is a general rule or if you are merely singling out Jewish Christians and Messianic Jews in your pogram.

**Not only but also “Jews-for-Baal” of the time of Elijah. Read I Kings 18:23. **

You seem bent on denying reality and historical fact.

What is reality and historical fact to some does not mean that the same must be to everyone else.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Bubba Switzler;5461552:

So your rewriting of history includes persecution of Jewish Christians in Israel by the Jewish authorities? Are you unfamiliar with Judaism’s own records of this period?

Yes, enough to say that there was never such a thing as Jewish Christians in our records.

Aha, they were not called “Christians” therefore they were not Christians. Now we see your “logic”.

But, in any case, the quesiton was not about names but about persecution.

Are you are are you not denying that Jews were persecuted by other Jews in 1C-2C AD by the Jewish authorities? Are you denying the deaths of men like Stephen who were not Pauline?

Bubba Switzler;5461552:

And if a Jew can believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that he rose from the dead then at what point does Christianity cross the line?

When the prospect confesses his or her religious loyalty to another faith.

You are missing the point (again). Is faith relevant to being Jewish? You vacilate on this (as with so many things) according to your argumentive needs at the moment. If a Jew does not need to perform then faith is irrelevant and anyone born Jewish is Jewish. If faith is relevant then atheist Jews are not Jewish.

But even setting all that aside, what is the Jewish faith and what falls outside that faith? What is “another faith” as opposed to a variation within the faith. You seem unable or unwilling to engage such thoughtful questions ever retreating to unsupported assertions that fit your momentary needs.

Bubba Switzler;5461552:

What is it that you ascribe to Paul that is beyond the pale? The only thing you’ve identified so far is the dogma of the Trinity which was not established dogma until the Nicene Creed in 325AD. (And, in fact, there were many interesting debates in the early church in regards to the rlationship of Jesus and God.)

Paul was the first to preach in Jerusalem about Jesus as son of God, and this is pagan Mythology.

What is it about the phrase “Son of God” (which is a Jewish phrase) that is “pagan”? (It was a reference to the Messiah.)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God#.22Son_of_God.22_according_to_Judaism

Bubba Switzler;5461552:

So what was Paul’s crime against Judaism that merrited persecution?

To teach the Jews to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children, and to quit the Jewish customs. Read Acts 21:21.

Now that I can agree with. But then you claimed previously that it is not necessary to practice Judaism to be Jewish so what’s the big deal with Paul on this?

Why are secular and even atheist Jews welcome but not Paul?

Bubba Switzler;5461552:

You claimed that “hyphenated” Jews are not real Jews. I’m wondering if that is a general rule or if you are merely singling out Jewish Christians and Messianic Jews in your pogram.

Not only but also “Jews-for-Baal” of the time of Elijah. Read I Kings 18:23.

But Jews for Atheism is ok since Rabbinical Judaism’s only essential creed is “we’re not Christian”.

Bubba Switzler;5461552:

You seem bent on denying reality and historical fact.

What is reality and historical fact to some does not mean that the same must be to everyone else.

Certainly that will happen if you make up your own facts to suit your needs.

 

[John7]

One person is an individual; collective is the People. No, according to my thread above, I don’t believe the Messiah is one person but Israel, **the Jewish People **

The Church’s ultimate trial

675 CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH
Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

If Ben is correct then the Jewish people are not only antichrist but are the Antichrist.

 

[SteveLohr]

The Church’s ultimate trial

675 CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH
Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

If Ben is correct then the Jewish people are not only antichrist but are the Antichrist.

Fortunately, Ben is not correct.

Regards,
Steve Lohr

 

[Ben_Masada]

Aha, they were not called “Christians” therefore they were not Christians. Now we see your “logic”.

Good! You got the message.

Are you are are you not denying that Jews were persecuted by other Jews in 1C-2C AD by the Jewish authorities? Are you denying the deaths of men like Stephen who were not Pauline?

Everything in the discourse of Stephen and in the method of execution indicates that it never happened. Stephen behaves as a Christian, when Christianity would not be around in another 15 years at the least.

You are missing the point (again). Is faith relevant to being Jewish? You vacilate on this (as with so many things) according to your argumentive needs at the moment. If a Jew does not need to perform then faith is irrelevant and anyone born Jewish is Jewish. If faith is relevant then atheist Jews are not Jewish.

Faith in terms of religion, as Judaism Christianity, etc, is relevant. But faith as the opposite of Reason is not relevant in Judaism. What is relevant in Judaism is good works and obedience to God’s Law.

But even setting all that aside, what is the Jewish faith and what falls outside that faith? What is “another faith” as opposed to a variation within the faith. You seem unable or unwilling to engage such thoughtful questions ever retreating to unsupported assertions that fit your momentary needs.

I am quite sure I have explained this to you before. But you are not the only one to return to the same questions over and over again. Judaism is my Faith and the Faith of Jesus. Another Faith is Christianity and others. Now, there is faith and there is Reason. I don’t like this kind of faith. I am more for Reason. This kind of faith makes people stupid.

What is it about the phrase “Son of God” (which is a Jewish phrase) that is “pagan”? (It was a reference to the Messiah.)

Behold, I agree with you that the expression “Son of God” is indeed a reference to the Messiah. Read Exodus 4:22,23. “Israel is My Son, said the Lord…” The phrase is indeed a Jewish phrase in that sense. But in the Christian sense is idolatry and too mythological.

Now that I can agree with. But then you claimed previously that it is not necessary to practice Judaism to be Jewish so what’s the big deal with Paul on this?

Paul tried to introduce Greek Mythology into Judaism. That’s a no no.

Why are secular and even atheist Jews welcome but not Paul?

Secular Jews won’t try to pervert the People into believing in Hellenism or Greek Mythology.

But Jews for Atheism is ok since Rabbinical Judaism’s only essential creed is “we’re not Christian”.

**There are no absolute Atheists in Judaism. I don’t believe in a Jewish Atheist. Not from the People who brought to the world the true concept of the true God. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

The Church’s ultimate trial

675 CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH
Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

If Ben is correct then the Jewish people are not only antichrist but are the Antichrist.

You have no idea what you are talking about because your Scriptures is the Church. Everything I say is from the Tanach, the Scriptures that Jesus himself used to handle and to refer to as the Word of God. Read Habakkuk 3:13. It says in there that Israel, the Jewish People is the Anointed of the Lord. Anointed in Greek means Christ. It’s only obvious that any anti-Semite or anti-Jewish is a member of the Antichrist. Check the quotation in order not to think that I am fabricating anything.

 

[allhers]

You have no idea what you are talking about because your Scriptures is the Church. Everything I say is from the Tanach, the Scriptures that Jesus himself used to handle and to refer to as the Word of God. Read Habakkuk 3:13. It says in there that Israel, the Jewish People is the Anointed of the Lord. Anointed in Greek means Christ. It’s only obvious that any anti-Semite or anti-Jewish is a member of the Antichrist. Check the quotation in order not to think that I am fabricating anything.

Luke 4:16-30 is titled The Rejection at Nazarath.
He came to Nazareth, went to the synagogue on the sabbath day and read this to them:

Luke 4:18-21

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has annointed me
to bring glad tidings to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to
captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free,
and to proclaim a year acceptable to the Lord.”

Rolling up the scroll, he handed it back to the attendant and sat down, and the eyes of all in the synagogue looked intently at him. He said to them, “Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing.”

The Tanach is our Old Testament.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Bubba Switzler;5464588:

Are you are are you not denying that Jews were persecuted by other Jews in 1C-2C AD by the Jewish authorities? Are you denying the deaths of men like Stephen who were not Pauline?

Everything in the discourse of Stephen and in the method of execution indicates that it never happened. Stephen behaves as a Christian, when Christianity would not be around in another 15 years at the least.

So, once again, you prefer to invent your own history. The fact that Stephen “behaves as a Christian” is exactly the point. The differences between the Jerusalem Church and the Pauline Church were mostly on the question of Jewish Christians keeping the Law.

Bubba Switzler;5464588:

You are missing the point (again). Is faith relevant to being Jewish? You vacilate on this (as with so many things) according to your argumentive needs at the moment. If a Jew does not need to perform then faith is irrelevant and anyone born Jewish is Jewish. If faith is relevant then atheist Jews are not Jewish.

Faith in terms of religion, as Judaism Christianity, etc, is relevant. But faith as the opposite of Reason is not relevant in Judaism. What is relevant in Judaism is good works and obedience to God’s Law.

Again, nobody in this thread is talking about “faith as the opposite of Reason.” That is an atheist invention. We are talking about faith as an expression of belief. If obedience to God’s law is necessary then atheists, and even non-observant secular Jews are not real Jews.

Bubba Switzler;5464588:

But even setting all that aside, what is the Jewish faith and what falls outside that faith? What is “another faith” as opposed to a variation within the faith. You seem unable or unwilling to engage such thoughtful questions ever retreating to unsupported assertions that fit your momentary needs.

I am quite sure I have explained this to you before. But you are not the only one to return to the same questions over and over again. Judaism is my Faith and the Faith of Jesus. Another Faith is Christianity and others. Now, there is faith and there is Reason. I don’t like this kind of faith. I am more for Reason. This kind of faith makes people stupid.

You are simply defining and asserting Christianity to be another faith. You are not providing an argument for that assertion. Perhaps Jewish Reason is simply the assertion of claims but what most of us understand by that is the development of a logical argument from shared premises.

Bubba Switzler;5464588:

What is it about the phrase “Son of God” (which is a Jewish phrase) that is “pagan”? (It was a reference to the Messiah.)

Behold, I agree with you that the expression “Son of God” is indeed a reference to the Messiah. Read Exodus 4:22,23. “Israel is My Son, said the Lord…” The phrase is indeed a Jewish phrase in that sense. But in the Christian sense is idolatry and too mythological.

So you claim without any argument or evidence. You complained that Paul was introducing non-Jewish ideas like Son of God but now you concede that it is a Jewish phrase for the Messiah which is entirely consistent with Paul’s use of the term. So the question remains: why do you hate Paul?

Bubba Switzler;5464588:

Now that I can agree with. But then you claimed previously that it is not necessary to practice Judaism to be Jewish so what’s the big deal with Paul on this?

Paul tried to introduce Greek Mythology into Judaism. That’s a no no.

No, Paul reinterpreted the Tenach in light of Jesus. The claim that he introduced greek mythology into judiasm is a Rabbinical myth.

Bubba Switzler;5464588:

Why are secular and even atheist Jews welcome but not Paul?

Secular Jews won’t try to pervert the People into believing in Hellenism or Greek Mythology.

So what is the evidence that Paul did this other than your reliance on Rabbnical mythology?

Bubba Switzler;5464588:

But Jews for Atheism is ok since Rabbinical Judaism’s only essential creed is “we’re not Christian”.

There are no absolute Atheists in Judaism. I don’t believe in a Jewish Atheist. Not from the People who brought to the world the true concept of the true God.

Not only are there Jewish atheists there are Jewish rabbis!

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,839200,00.html

 

[John7]

**You have no idea what you are talking about **

You have no idea what you’re talking about
you have no idea what you’re talking about

You sound like a kid, an angry one at that. Physically about 47. Emotionally and mentally? my guess is a brainwashed antichristian Talmudist.

because your Scriptures is the Church.

My scriptures are the Church?? Christians own the New Testament and the Old Testament. Who do you think wrote most of your 1917 JPS Tanakh? Christian Hebrew scholars, example

JPS Tanakh
1 A Psalm of David. HaShem is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul; He guideth me in straight paths for His name’s sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for Thou art with me; Thy rod and Thy staff, they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies; Thou hast anointed my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of HaShem for ever.

King James Bible
Psalms 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

JPS committee plagiarizing a centuries old King James Bible?..I see

**Everything I say is from the Tanach, the Scriptures that Jesus himself used to handle and to refer to as the Word of God. Read Habakkuk 3:13. It says in there that Israel, the Jewish People is the Anointed of the Lord. Anointed in Greek means Christ. **

We both know that the quote has nothing to do with fleshy-Israel, but with the true ‘Israel’ and true ‘Israel of God’ ie, Jesus and believers in him who are now called Christians. Christians are ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit (see 2 Cor 1:21, & 1 John 2:27) and make up Christ’s body. Unbelieving, Jesus Christ hating, fleshy-Jews have nothing of the ANOINTING of the Holy Spirit. In fact Christians are:

From Peter
“a royal priesthood” (1 Pet 2:9)
“a chosen generation” (1 Pet 2:9)

From John
“the sons of God” (John 1:12)
“priests unto God” (Rev 1:6)

From Paul
“the children of God” (Rom 8:16)
“the elect of God” (Col 3:12)
“the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16)

From the writer of Hebrews
“the people of God” (Heb 4:9)
“the city of the Living God” (Heb 12:22)

I’ve read some of your posts “that’s just Pauline replacement theology” (look carefully, the above verses are not all from Paul) or “the New Testament is 20% true and 80% interpolation”…blah,blah,blah . You can’t peddle these false assertions here at Christian Catholic Answers Forum and think anyone is going to seriously listen to you, or even remotely believe you (then again maybe you do actually believe you’re being seriously listened to ).

It’s only obvious that any anti-Semite or anti-Jewish is a member of the Antichrist.

Where’d you find that in the Bible. Listen if anyone comes to CAF and claims to be the Messiah (like a David Koresh type) he won’t be taken seriously. Likewise if you come to CAF claiming ‘the Jews are the Messiah, the Jews are the Messiah’ you’ll get a similar response. We all know that Jesus is the Living Christ. It is he that Christians look up to and adore not ‘fleshy, non-Jesus-Christ-believing Judaism’. As with all ethnic populations, Christians don’t disrespect Judaism nor are anti-Semitic (frankly you throwing around the ‘anti-Semite’ card is a bit annoying…a little paranoia on your part? I can refer you to one of my colleauges but don’t expect a house call) but I can assure you no Christian will bow down to this silly-collective-Jewish-pseudo-Messiah-entity of yours. All Christians are armed with these verses like:

2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[Insight]

You sound like a kid

After looking the postings over more closely, I came to the same conclusion, posted it on the “The Mystery of the Empty Tomb” thread. We are being played by a kid.

God Bless

 

[Ben_Masada]

Luke 4:16-30 is titled The Rejection at Nazarath.
He came to Nazareth, went to the synagogue on the sabbath day and read this to them:

Luke 4:18-21

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has annointed me
to bring glad tidings to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to
captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free,
and to proclaim a year acceptable to the Lord.”

Rolling up the scroll, he handed it back to the attendant and sat down, and the eyes of all in the synagogue looked intently at him. He said to them, “Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing.”

The Tanach is our Old Testament.

Luke 4:18-21 is Replacement Theology. The purpose of Luke as a Hellenist Gentile was to replace Israel, the Jewish People with Jesus as an individual. And now, you say that the Tanach is your “Old Testament.” What do we have as Jews? Isn’t there any limits to what you Christians can dare?