The Collective Messiah

[Ben_Masada]

Atheism is “another faith” it is faith in the non-existence of God. It is hard to imagine a more anti-Jewish faith than atheism but it tells us about Rabbinical Judaism’s inherent anti-Christian bias that an atheist Jew is welcome but a Messianic Jew is not.

Faith is of religion. Atheism is against religion. Therefore, Atheism is not another faith. That’s proof by syllogism. Logic, therefore.

Furthermore, faith is not the essence of Judaism. The Jews are not merely heirs to Abraham but they are participants in a Covenant with God. A person with genuine Jewish faith would keep the Torah.

I never said that faith is the essence of Judaism. The essence of Judaism is Reason. Faith blinds people; Reason enhances knowledge.Hosea says that one perishes for lack of knowledge and not of faith. (Hosea 4:6) If the faithful of Jim Jones had tried to know better, almost a thousand of them had not lost their lives.

Jewish anti-Christianism is not an excuse for Christian anti-semitism but it certainly is worth noticing.

Don’t blame the Jews for resisting Christianity. Jews have a hard time adapting to a polytheistic culture.

The Sadducees rejected the Oral Torah just as Rabbinical Jews reject the NT. But the Sadducees did not eject the Pharisees from Judaism as Rabbinical Jews ejected the Christians and continue to shun Messianic Jews.

Judaism, Biblical or Rabbinical, never ejected Christians because Christians were NEVER a part of Judaism in the first place.

No, Biblical Jews sacrifice at the Temple of Jerusalem. Pretend Jews pray at the wailing wall.

There is no Temple in Jerusalem, and the Wailing Wall is Jewish.

Not merely “a great number” but the core of Judaism. And the Jewish disinterest in rebuilding the Temple and resuming animal sacrifices demonstrates the non-Biblical nature of Rabbinical Judaism.

Wait till we mature a little more politically, and you will see us removing that abomination from our Temple Mount and rebuilding our own Temple.

I have visited Rome. I can assure you it still exists.

That’s not that Rome. Nice try for the wish thinking comparison.

Israel defers to America because it depends on it. But interestingly American Jews are increasingly turning their backs on Israel.

**That’s another wish thinking of yours. We still get about 2 billion dollars from the American Jewish pocket every year. **

Now mind you, I am rooting for Israel, though for humanitarian and geopolitical and not theological reasons, but the time is coming when Jews will have to abandon Israel again.

That’s the third wish thinking of yours, which is farfetched, God willing.

Setting aside your exagerations, the point remains. Christians, too, suffered persecution by the Romans but they prevailed. Christianity is today where Judaism could have been had it made the right choices in 1C-2C AD.

Luck was on the Christian side to prevail because Constantine couldn’t
be more superstitious. It’s a pity that Julian had to die so young.

Then, by your own measure, Judaism is an abject failure and Christianity a success.

That’s indeed pitiful that the majority don’t think like me. If at least half of the Jews became conscious of how solid a truth we have, Christianity and Islam would lose grounds at a fast pace.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Gabriel of 12;

So Isaiah does reference the True and final Messiah Jesus who is God incarnate. For Jesus revealed all the Prophets and Law that pertatained to him of which Jesus now fulfilled. Including the sacrifice of Bread and Wine according to the order of Melchizedeck.

**Next time you write something like this you have written above, add the word “assume.” People might think that what you mean is written in Isaiah, when the opposite is true. It is a consensus that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we don’t have to assume that he could have been Jesus. Read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben; What I have found puzzling about your posts; is that you include a 19th century Evangelical Christian interpretation mixed with a 2000 year old Catholicism. This is not happening.

It goes without saying that some of your posts would not make sense when arguing a Christian belief. Because outside of Catholicism you enter into a many diverse interpretation of Jesus and his teachings.

For clarification on this non catholic forum, it may be good to emphasize which Christianity your addressing, a 2000 year old Christianity which is Catholicism or Evangelicals, and or our seperated brethern, Protestantism. To some of these 19th century Christians, may have Jewish connotations such as SDA’s and JW’s who would find your interpretation of Jesus agreeable.

To remain on track, for clarification Catholicism has no problem revealing a first century Jewish Christian biblical interpretation of the scriptures. Taking a position from a 19th century Christian interpretation seperates oneself from the True Christianity from antiquity who were Hebrew Jewish Christians. It is from these that Liturgical, Revelations, and biblical interpretation from the Law of Moses and Prophets are summed up in Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord. This is not coming from a Christian of today, this revelation comes to us from the first Hebrew Jewish Chritians.

It would be accurate to argue with your Jewish colleagues who became Christians from the first century, which is the Catholic church, who would have an understanding of both Hebrew thought and teaching of scriptures fulfilled through Jesus Christ. Than to take a mixture of 19th century christian interpretations that many times does not address the questions you ask of Catholics. And become mundane requests and your late Christian biblical interpretations that conflict with Christianity from antiquity.

Anyhow just for your information, please do not clump your 19th century christianity biblical interpretation with Catholicsm the too dont mix.

Peace be with you

**Allow me to correct a small misunderstanding of your observation. I am not interpreting Jesus according to your 19th Century separated brethren Protestants, neirther according to your 2000 year old Catholic Church, but according to my 4000 year old Judaism. Can you beat that? Jesus was a religious Jewish man and not a Catholic or Protestant. Therefore, any other interpretation of Jesus which is not Jewish, is prone to fail on the onset by not being true. **

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Bubba Switzler;5433873:

Atheism is “another faith” it is faith in the non-existence of God. It is hard to imagine a more anti-Jewish faith than atheism but it tells us about Rabbinical Judaism’s inherent anti-Christian bias that an atheist Jew is welcome but a Messianic Jew is not.

Faith is of religion. Atheism is against religion. Therefore, Atheism is not another faith. That’s proof by syllogism. Logic, therefore.

You can invent all the distinctions you want. The fact remains that Rabbinical Jews are willing to embrace atheists and shun Christians.

Bubba Switzler;5433873:

Furthermore, faith is not the essence of Judaism. The Jews are not merely heirs to Abraham but they are participants in a Covenant with God. A person with genuine Jewish faith would keep the Torah.

I never said that faith is the essence of Judaism. The essence of Judaism is Reason. Faith blinds people; Reason enhances knowledge.Hosea says that one perishes for lack of knowledge and not of faith. (Hosea 4:6) If the faithful of Jim Jones had tried to know better, almost a thousand of them had not lost their lives.

And, yet, you claim that you Jewish Christians for not having the right faith.

Bubba Switzler;5433873:

Jewish anti-Christianism is not an excuse for Christian anti-semitism but it certainly is worth noticing.

Don’t blame the Jews for resisting Christianity. Jews have a hard time adapting to a polytheistic culture.

As do Christians.

Bubba Switzler;5433873:

The Sadducees rejected the Oral Torah just as Rabbinical Jews reject the NT. But the Sadducees did not eject the Pharisees from Judaism as Rabbinical Jews ejected the Christians and continue to shun Messianic Jews.

Judaism, Biblical or Rabbinical, never ejected Christians because Christians were NEVER a part of Judaism in the first place.

As you well know, the founders of Christianity were Jews and it was not until the Rabbinical Jews gained power that the Christians were ejected. You might as well argue that the Sadducees were never Jewish because they didn’t believe in the Oral Torah.

Bubba Switzler;5433873:

Not merely “a great number” but the core of Judaism. And the Jewish disinterest in rebuilding the Temple and resuming animal sacrifices demonstrates the non-Biblical nature of Rabbinical Judaism.

Wait till we mature a little more politically, and you will see us removing that abomination from our Temple Mount and rebuilding our own Temple.

I won’t rain on your dreams but until such time you don’t have Biblical Judaism. You don’t even have Judaism in exile because, as I pointed out, the vast preponderance of Jews don’t want to resume animal sacrifices in the Temple.

Bubba Switzler;5433873:

I have visited Rome. I can assure you it still exists.

That’s not that Rome. Nice try for the wish thinking comparison.

Modern Rome. Modern Jerusalem. Not much difference between them.

Bubba Switzler;5433873:

Israel defers to America because it depends on it. But interestingly American Jews are increasingly turning their backs on Israel.

That’s another wish thinking of yours. We still get about 2 billion dollars from the American Jewish pocket every year.

You obviously haven’t been paying attention to the opinion polls of American Jews.

Bubba Switzler;5433873:

Now mind you, I am rooting for Israel, though for humanitarian and geopolitical and not theological reasons, but the time is coming when Jews will have to abandon Israel again.

That’s the third wish thinking of yours, which is farfetched, God willing.

I know a lot of ex-Israelis. Their story is always the same: there is no future in Israel. Today they are a trickle but when Iran (and perhaps Syria and Egypt) start lobbing nukes, or when Hamas gets their nukes, it will turn to a flood.

That’s a far more realistic scenario than the rebuilding of the Temple. I’d take that bet anyday.

Bubba Switzler;5433873:

Setting aside your exagerations, the point remains. Christians, too, suffered persecution by the Romans but they prevailed. Christianity is today where Judaism could have been had it made the right choices in 1C-2C AD.

Luck was on the Christian side to prevail because Constantine couldn’t
be more superstitious. It’s a pity that Julian had to die so young.

Not luck, my friend, inevitability. Constantine simply made a political calculation. Christianity had already triumphed in 4C AD.

Bubba Switzler;5433873:

Then, by your own measure, Judaism is an abject failure and Christianity a success.

That’s indeed pitiful that the majority don’t think like me. If at least half of the Jews became conscious of how solid a truth we have, Christianity and Islam would lose grounds at a fast pace.

Now who is engaging in wishful thinking?

If the Jews had not ejected the Christians and made war with Rome then Israel would be the center of world civilization today.

 

[Ben_Masada]

You can invent all the distinctions you want. The fact remains that Rabbinical Jews are willing to embrace atheists and shun Christians.

**There is no such a thing as an Atheist Jew. He knows he belongs to a People who have brought the right concept of the true God to the world. Then, Atheism is neutral as religion is concern. Christianity is polytheistic. **

And, yet, you claim that you Jewish Christians for not having the right faith.

I mean faith as religion is concerned and not faith as the opposite of Reason.

As you well know, the founders of Christianity were Jews and it was not until the Rabbinical Jews gained power that the Christians were ejected. You might as well argue that the Sadducees were never Jewish because they didn’t believe in the Oral Torah.

**I have told you already that the problem with the Sadducees was political vis-a-vis the Pharisees. They could not reject fences built to prevent a break of the written Law. The same happens to me. I cannot accept the teachings of the NT but I cannot reject the fences Jesus built around the commandments not to kill and and not to commit adultery. **

I won’t rain on your dreams but until such time you don’t have Biblical Judaism. You don’t even have Judaism in exile because, as I pointed out, the vast preponderance of Jews don’t want to resume animal sacrifices in the Temple.

The Judaism I profess is Biblical and I am not in exile.

Modern Rome. Modern Jerusalem. Not much difference between them.

Are you sure? Let the Rome of today try on Israel what the Rome of then did. You would see the difference.

You obviously haven’t been paying attention to the opinion polls of American Jews.

Words! We don’t go by words, but actions.

I know a lot of ex-Israelis. Their story is always the same: there is no future in Israel. Today they are a trickle but when Iran (and perhaps Syria and Egypt) start lobbing nukes, or when Hamas gets their nukes, it will turn to a flood.

**Those Israelis have lost track of their priorities. What do they mean by
“no future in Israel?,” money? That’s BS. I used to make money in Los Angeles, four times as much as I make here in Israel. Guess what? I was miserable in America. I have found my “Shangrila” in Israel. **

That’s a far more realistic scenario than the rebuilding of the Temple. I’d take that bet anyday.

**You may plan as you wish, but God is the One Who decides the outcome. **

Not luck, my friend, inevitability. Constantine simply made a political calculation. Christianity had already triumphed in 4C AD.

**You know very well that Christianity did collect on the superstition of Constantine. **

If the Jews had not ejected the Christians and made war with Rome then Israel would be the center of world civilization today.

With a lot of paganism.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

There is no such a thing as an Atheist Jew. He knows he belongs to a People who have brought the right concept of the true God to the world.

Rubbish. You think atheist Jews exempt Judaism from their antipathy to the concept of God?

Christianity is polytheistic.

Standard Jewish slander.

I mean faith as religion is concerned and not faith as the opposite of Reason.

Nobody is talking about faith as the opposite of reason. You claimed that Messianic Jews were not real Jews because they had a different faith, i.e. a different religion, but that atheist Jews are still Jews because they reject all religions (apparently, you think, except Judaism). To an antheist, you are a superstitios idiot and the Torah a product of fevered minds.

Bubba:

As you well know, the founders of Christianity were Jews and it was not until the Rabbinical Jews gained power that the Christians were ejected. You might as well argue that the Sadducees were never Jewish because they didn’t believe in the Oral Torah.

I have told you already that the problem with the Sadducees was political vis-a-vis the Pharisees. They could not reject fences built to prevent a break of the written Law. The same happens to me. I cannot accept the teachings of the NT but I cannot reject the fences Jesus built around the commandments not to kill and and not to commit adultery.

Then you have yet to understand the radical nature of Rabbinical ejection of Christian Jews and the continuing rejection of Messianic Jews.

Bubba:

Modern Rome. Modern Jerusalem. Not much difference between them.

Are you sure? Let the Rome of today try on Israel what the Rome of then did. You would see the difference.

Of course Rome is now Christian so that’s not going to happen. But I think Israel has its hands full with the Palestinians right now.

Bubba:

You obviously haven’t been paying attention to the opinion polls of American Jews.

Words! We don’t go by words, but actions.

The action consequence of this shift of Jewish opinion is that politians disinterested in Israel’s security get elected and pressure Israel to do stupid things.

Bubba:

I know a lot of ex-Israelis. Their story is always the same: there is no future in Israel. Today they are a trickle but when Iran (and perhaps Syria and Egypt) start lobbing nukes, or when Hamas gets their nukes, it will turn to a flood.

Those Israelis have lost track of their priorities. What do they mean by
“no future in Israel?,” money? That’s BS. I used to make money in Los Angeles, four times as much as I make here in Israel. Guess what? I was miserable in America. I have found my “Shangrila” in Israel.

I’m glad you found your place but you may get lonely if more people make the choice that ex-Israelis are making to go the other way. It’s not just money. And since Israel is just another secular state there is no attraction on religious grounds.

Bubba:

If the Jews had not ejected the Christians and made war with Rome then Israel would be the center of world civilization today.

With a lot of paganism.

So you claim but only if paganism were the product of Jewish minds.

Either “paganism” was introduced by the Jewish apostles or “paganism” crept into Christianity following the schism with Judaism. Because up until the schism with Judaism Christianity was a Jewish sect and all the principles were Jewish.

If Christianity is not what you think it should have been, blame your ancestors.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

But Ben doesn’t even want to acknowledge that there were Jewish Christians or that the NT is a product of Jewish minds or that Rabbinical Judaism was the cause of the Jewish-Christian schism (not to mention the destruction of Israel).

Well that puts Ben in a category all by himself against his own Rabbi’s, as do non catholics to the Magesterium of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church.

There are many famous Rabbi’s who concluded that the Catholic Church reading of the scripture by literal sense, spiritual sense from the ecomony, typology and mystygagy of scripture reveals the on going covenants. Jews would use the words zakar, whereby Catholics use the Word parousia in recognizing the True presence.

IF Ben were to investigate historical accounts after the destruction of the temple 70 a.d. The Jews replaced the temple worship with such Judeo Christian biblical interpretations from Jesus Luke 24:25-27 who was a practicing Jew, Paul who was a learned Jew, Matthew, John who was well resepected from his Jewish counterparts as well as many other eyewitness accounts to the fulfillment of Jesus. In fact Elijah appeared in the first century identifying Jesus as the lamb of God, which fulfilled the prophets of the Messiah’s identity. But then again the Jews chopped off his head as they did all the other prophets. Leaving Jesus no exception.

Taking a literal sense of scripture is ok if your going to remain in history, But God’s word lives and is eternal the Messiah of Isaiah is truly coming from Israel, Jesus according to the promise God made King David a forerunner to the Messiah Jesus.

All Iam saying here is that to take the literal sense of scripture from history deny’s the Word of God being expressed by the covenant liturgical expression that comes from the Word of God. In the new covenant as well as the old covenant the Word of God ceases to exist if not expressed from its living memory to “Do this in memory of me”.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

What follows with the Messiah is Zion. Historical records prove that the only remaining structure from the 70 a.d temple destruction was the Judeo Christian Church standing on Mount Zion were Jesus the Messiah made his New Covenant in his body and blood sacrifce using the rubrics of covenant biblical signature.

Jesus in his resurrection now establishes an eternal Zion, a New Jerusalem and New Israel. This is seen and celebrated from the penatuch, prophets and the new testament in the New Covenant Mass.

One cannot see these Laws and prophets fulfilled which is God’s living word without a liturgical celebration which includes the Living Word of God which announces them, and are made present from the parousia (zakar) of the living Covenant of God. Where the once and for all sacrifice is being eternally present made before the almighty on our behalf. Jesus Christ savior, emmanuel, is the God who saves.

To remain in prophetic times is not living God’s word which is True and eternally living.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Rubbish. You think atheist Jews exempt Judaism from their antipathy to the concept of God?

According to Psalm 14:1, they are fools.

Standard Jewish slander.

Just one more in the Godhead than absolutely One is Polytheism.

Nobody is talking about faith as the opposite of reason. You claimed that Messianic Jews were not real Jews because they had a different faith, i.e. a different religion, but that atheist Jews are still Jews because they reject all religions (apparently, you think, except Judaism). To an antheist, you are a superstitios idiot and the Torah a product of fevered minds.

And to anyone with a mind of his own, you are no different from a tick who goes by the heads of Catholic priests. I could have chosen to report you for attacking me as of being a “superstitious idiot,” but I preferred to answer your offense in kind, because you are unable to think for yourself.

Then you have yet to understand the radical nature of Rabbinical ejection of Christian Jews and the continuing rejection of Messianic Jews.

There is no such a thing as a hyphenated Jew. One is either a Jew or he is not Jewish at all.

Of course Rome is now Christian so that’s not going to happen. But I think Israel has its hands full with the Palestinians right now.

Israel has its hands full because we just can’t get rid of the consequences of public opinion.

The action consequence of this shift of Jewish opinion is that politians disinterested in Israel’s security get elected and pressure Israel to do stupid things.

Because of the foreign public opinion. After 60 years we haven’t be able yet to get rid of the Diaspora.

I’m glad you found your place but you may get lonely if more people make the choice that ex-Israelis are making to go the other way. It’s not just money. And since Israel is just another secular state there is no attraction on religious grounds.

That’s not what I see here. Busloads of religious tourists are visiting the Country almost daily.

So you claim but only if paganism were the product of Jewish minds.

Jews, pagans! We are the first Monotheistic People in the History of the world.

Either “paganism” was introduced by the Jewish apostles or “paganism” crept into Christianity following the schism with Judaism. Because up until the schism with Judaism Christianity was a Jewish sect and all the principles were Jewish.

Christianity was never a sect of Judaism. You are confusing Christians wirh the Nazarenes. These yes, constituted one of the sects of Judaism. Christianity was born already Polytheistic.

If Christianity is not what you think it should have been, blame your ancestors.

Paul was not my ancestor.

 

[Ben_Masada]

What follows with the Messiah is Zion. Historical records prove that the only remaining structure from the 70 a.d temple destruction was the Judeo Christian Church standing on Mount Zion were Jesus the Messiah made his New Covenant in his body and blood sacrifce using the rubrics of covenant biblical signature.

Jesus in his resurrection now establishes an eternal Zion, a New Jerusalem and New Israel. This is seen and celebrated from the penatuch, prophets and the new testament in the New Covenant Mass.

One cannot see these Laws and prophets fulfilled which is God’s living word without a liturgical celebration which includes the Living Word of God which announces them, and are made present from the parousia (zakar) of the living Covenant of God. Where the once and for all sacrifice is being eternally present made before the almighty on our behalf. Jesus Christ savior, emmanuel, is the God who saves.

To remain in prophetic times is not living God’s word which is True and eternally living.

**The only New Covenant mentioned in the Scriptures was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one. It says nothing about Gentiles or Christians. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34. The Christian New Covenant was established by Paul. **

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Bubba Switzler;5441360:

Rubbish. You think atheist Jews exempt Judaism from their antipathy to the concept of God?

According to Psalm 14:1, they are fools.

And according to you they are Jewish.

Bubba Switzler;5441360:

Nobody is talking about faith as the opposite of reason. You claimed that Messianic Jews were not real Jews because they had a different faith, i.e. a different religion, but that atheist Jews are still Jews because they reject all religions (apparently, you think, except Judaism). To an antheist, you are a superstitios idiot and the Torah a product of fevered minds.

And to anyone with a mind of his own, you are no different from a tick who goes by the heads of Catholic priests. I could have chosen to report you for attacking me as of being a “superstitious idiot,” but I preferred to answer your offense in kind, because you are unable to think for yourself.

You find atheism offensive after all, then? But for some reason, still welcome among Jews.

Bubba Switzler;5441360:

Then you have yet to understand the radical nature of Rabbinical ejection of Christian Jews and the continuing rejection of Messianic Jews.

There is no such a thing as a hyphenated Jew. One is either a Jew or he is not Jewish at all.

But of course there is no diminishment of one by the other. An Israeli Jew is a Jew who lives in Israel. A female Jew is a Jew who is female. A Messianic Jew is a Jew who believes that Jesus was the Messiah.

But you believe that an atheist Jew, who rejects the most fundamental element of Judaism, is more Jewish than a Messianic Jew.

Christian Jews were singled out for a special treatment by the Rabbinical Jews and this anti-Christianism continues today in your slanders against Messianic Jews.

Bubba Switzler;5441360:

Of course Rome is now Christian so that’s not going to happen. But I think Israel has its hands full with the Palestinians right now.

Israel has its hands full because we just can’t get rid of the consequences of public opinion.

Huh?! Israel is hamstrung by many limitations, as are all nations. Internal opinion is one factor, there are (still) many Jews who are “tired of war” and want “peace at any cost”. Then there are the American Jews growing embarrassed of an Israel that is always fighting to survive in a dangerous neighborhood. Then there are the Israeli patrons, the Americans, who are ever tempted to make a separate peace with the Muslims.

Bubba Switzler;5441360:

The action consequence of this shift of Jewish opinion is that politians disinterested in Israel’s security get elected and pressure Israel to do stupid things.

Because of the foreign public opinion. After 60 years we haven’t be able yet to get rid of the Diaspora.

Who is trying to “get rid” of the diaspora? These are Jews who simply prefer to live among gentiles for one reason or another.

Bubba Switzler;5441360:

I’m glad you found your place but you may get lonely if more people make the choice that ex-Israelis are making to go the other way. It’s not just money. And since Israel is just another secular state there is no attraction on religious grounds.

That’s not what I see here. Busloads of religious tourists are visiting the Country almost daily.

There are busloads of tourists visiting the ruins of the Roman Empire in Rome too.

Bubba Switzler;5441360:

So you claim but only if paganism were the product of Jewish minds.

Jews, pagans! We are the first Monotheistic People in the History of the world.

Perhaps the first, perhaps not, but that is not really what matters. The Jewish mission was not simply to live quietly in Israel and worship God in the Temple.

Bubba Switzler;5441360:

Either “paganism” was introduced by the Jewish apostles or “paganism” crept into Christianity following the schism with Judaism. Because up until the schism with Judaism Christianity was a Jewish sect and all the principles were Jewish.

Christianity was never a sect of Judaism. You are confusing Christians wirh the Nazarenes. These yes, constituted one of the sects of Judaism. Christianity was born already Polytheistic.

The Nazerenes were Jewish Christians. But setting names aside, they were ejected from Judaism by the Rabbinical Jews just as you reject Messianic Jews today. And this occurred long before the theology of the trinity and before Christian anti-Semitism, before any other modern Jewish complaint against Christianity.

Bubba Switzler;5441360:

If Christianity is not what you think it should have been, blame your ancestors.

Paul was not my ancestor.

No, but those who ejected Christianity from Judaism are. They are the reason Christianity became detached from its Jewish roots.

It’s interesting to contemplate how Christian theology might have developed had it remained rooted in Judaism. I think Messianic Jews are trying to recreate that possibility but now they, too, are being cut off from Judaism.

 

[John7]

Ben

John 2:22…
we’re able to discern your voice

Pray for Ben Masada that he would become a completed Jew in Christ Jesus like the other Messianic Jews many in Israel (beware,his heart has been hardened)

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

**The only New Covenant mentioned in the Scriptures was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one. It says nothing about Gentiles or Christians. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34. The Christian New Covenant was established by Paul. **

There are multiple covenants in the old testament beginning with Adam, Abraham, Moses, David etc. The New covenants you may be pertaining to from the old testament are the renewed covenants made with old testament Israel.

The New Covenant that is hidden in the Old Covenant when the Old Covenant gets revealed in the New Covenant is the one established by the Jesus Christ of the one Moses spoke of from Det.18:15 "A prophet like me will the LORD, your God, raise up for you from among your own kinsmen; to him you shall listen.

It is God’s loving and merciful way to include every tongue nation and people in his New Covenant. If your New Covenant does not include all of God’s people and creation then your new covenant is still in the creation phase of the six day.

Here is the prophet Ezekiel explaining what takes place in the New Covenant through the sacrament of baptism;

Ezekiel 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts.
27** I will put my spirit within you **and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.
29 I will save you from all your impurities; I will order the grain to be abundant, and I will not send famine against you.

The New Covenant is the giving and Living in the Holy Spirit, whereby the Old Covenant possessed the “Law” which convicts. This is the 153 fish the disciples of Jesus caught after he resurrected from the** right **side of the boat. This number broken down by Gematria includes both the 10 commandments and the 7 Spirits which total 17 by adding the numbers 1-17 you get 153. The 7 Spirits define the one (Seba) complete Holy Spirit of God.

Again Interpretation is key to understanding Literal which is the Old Covenant and Spiritual which includes both the reality of the Old Covenant revealed in the New Covenant. This is one reason God became incarnate which combined the natural (old covenant law )of his body fulfilled by his divinity present (New Covenant) eliminating that enmity between Jew and Gentile and removing that enmity between God and humanity “ONCE AND FOR ALL”.

Uniting these in his full humanity/ full Divinity in Jesus Christ. This is what all the Law and prophets pointed too since the fall of man. When God would unite Man with him in the 7th day of creation. So the New Covenant begins on the 8th day a new creation in the first day after Jesus rested his humanity (old covenant) on the Sabbath, raising to eternal life on the Lords Day the 8th day according to the law of the old covenant is when God will reveal himself to Israel on the 8th day.

 

[Ben_Masada]

And according to you they are Jewish.

Yes, because they have not confessed loyalty to another religion.

You find atheism offensive after all, then? But for some reason, still welcome among Jews.

The same as above. Anyways, I don’t flock with them.

But of course there is no diminishment of one by the other. An Israeli Jew is a Jew who lives in Israel. A female Jew is a Jew who is female. A Messianic Jew is a Jew who believes that Jesus was the Messiah.

A so-called “Messianic Jew” is a former Jew who became a Christian.

But you believe that an atheist Jew, who rejects the most fundamental element of Judaism, is more Jewish than a Messianic Jew.

To be Jewish, one does not have to practice Judaism. He has only not to confess another faith.

Christian Jews were singled out for a special treatment by the Rabbinical Jews and this anti-Christianism continues today in your slanders against Messianic Jews.

There is no such a thing as Christian-Jews or Jewish-Christians. One is a Jew or he is not.

Huh?! Israel is hamstrung by many limitations, as are all nations. Internal opinion is one factor, there are (still) many Jews who are “tired of war” and want “peace at any cost”. Then there are the American Jews growing embarrassed of an Israel that is always fighting to survive in a dangerous neighborhood. Then there are the Israeli patrons, the Americans, who are ever tempted to make a separate peace with the Muslims.

There is no possibility for peace with Muslims, unless it depended only on us. And peace at any cost is unacceptable because we have to leave the Land of Israel, according to Muslim barbarians.

Who is trying to “get rid” of the diaspora? These are Jews who simply prefer to live among gentiles for one reason or another.

Isaiah already said that not all Jews are supposed to return. Only a small remnant.

Perhaps the first, perhaps not, but that is not really what matters. The Jewish mission was not simply to live quietly in Israel and worship God in the Temple.

**That’s why I am living the Jewish Mission by bringing God to the Gentiles. At least, I am doing better than Jesus, who always when he sent his disciples on a mission, he would warn them not to go to the Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5) **

The Nazerenes were Jewish Christians. But setting names aside, they were ejected from Judaism by the Rabbinical Jews just as you reject Messianic Jews today. And this occurred long before the theology of the trinity and before Christian anti-Semitism, before any other modern Jewish complaint against Christianity.

You are mistaken about the Nazarenes. They never had anything to do with Christians. They rather lived at odds with Christians as Paul would rob them of their converts in order to build his churches, like a cuckcoo bird.

No, but those who ejected Christianity from Judaism are. They are the reason Christianity became detached from its Jewish roots.

I have said it and repeat: We never ejected Christians from Judaism because they never belonged with us in the first place.

It’s interesting to contemplate how Christian theology might have developed had it remained rooted in Judaism. I think Messianic Jews are trying to recreate that possibility but now they, too, are being cut off from Judaism.

They could not. Monotheism cannot match with Polytheism.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben

John 2:22…
we’re able to discern your voice

Pray for Ben Masada that he would become a completed Jew in Christ Jesus like the other Messianic Jews many in Israel (beware,his heart has been hardened)

Don’t forget to pray for each other too, so that God may open your eyes to the light that I am bringing. Didn’t Isaiah say in 42:6 that we have been given as light unto the Gentiles? Didn’t Jesus also say in Matthew 5:14 that we Jews should set our light high on a stand so that you guys can see it? What else am I to do so that you may see the light?

 

[Ben_Masada]

There are multiple covenants in the old testament beginning with Adam, Abraham, Moses, David etc. The New covenants you may be pertaining to from the old testament are the renewed covenants made with old testament Israel.

There is no other New Covenant made with Israel beyond the one Jeremiah refers to in Jeremiah 31:31.

The New Covenant that is hidden in the Old Covenant when the Old Covenant gets revealed in the New Covenant is the one established by the Jesus Christ of the one Moses spoke of from Det.18:15 "A prophet like me will the LORD, your God, raise up for you from among your own kinsmen; to him you shall listen.

**The Prophet-like-Moses in Deuteronomy 18:15 was Joshua. That’s not a prophecy. Moses was informing and preparing the People by enhancing Joshua’s credibility to be accepted as Moses was. **

It is God’s loving and merciful way to include every tongue nation and people in his New Covenant. If your New Covenant does not include all of God’s people and creation then your new covenant is still in the creation phase of the six day.

The Covenant over all of God’s Creation was the Noahite Covenant. This of a Christian New Covenant was fabricated by Paul to enhance his Christology.

Here is the prophet Ezekiel explaining what takes place in the New Covenant through the sacrament of baptism;

Ezekiel 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts.
27** I will put my spirit within you **and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.
29 I will save you from all your impurities; I will order the grain to be abundant, and I will not send famine against you.

You are describing the New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one in Jeremiah 31:31-34. It has nothing to do with baptism or Gentiles. The Noahite Covenant is the one for the Gentiles.

Again Interpretation is key to understanding Literal which is the Old Covenant and Spiritual which includes both the reality of the Old Covenant revealed in the New Covenant. This is one reason God became incarnate which combined the natural (old covenant law )of his body fulfilled by his divinity present (New Covenant) eliminating that enmity between Jew and Gentile and removing that enmity between God and humanity “ONCE AND FOR ALL”.

There you come again with this mythological incarnation of God.That’s an alien doctrine to Judaism.

Uniting these in his full humanity/ full Divinity in Jesus Christ. This is what all the Law and prophets pointed too since the fall of man. When God would unite Man with him in the 7th day of creation. So the New Covenant begins on the 8th day a new creation in the first day after Jesus rested his humanity (old covenant) on the Sabbath, raising to eternal life on the Lords Day the 8th day according to the law of the old covenant is when God will reveal himself to Israel on the 8th day.

This is what I call a gospel of assumptions without any basis at all in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

So let me pose a hypothetical. I want to introduce you to Samuel. Samuel is from a Jewish family; both sides trace back to Abraham and have kept the rabbinical tradition as long as anyone remembers.

Samuel, though, has been reading the NT and other materials and has come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah promised by the Jewish prophets. He believes that Jesus was crucified and that he rose from the dead.

But he does not believe that the NT is scripture, the Word of God in the same way that the Torah is. He believes that Paul was just another 1C Jewish thinker with his own opinions and does not regard them as the Word of God. He doesn’t subscribe to the Nicene or any other Christian creed.

Now the question I want to put to you is not “do you agree with Samuel” but “is Samuel a Jew?”

Bubba Switzler;5445788:

And according to you they are Jewish…To be Jewish, one does not have to practice Judaism. He has only not to confess another faith.

Yes, because they have not confessed loyalty to another religion.

Suffice it to say that this is not a Biblical definition of Judaism but rather a relatively recent rabbinical invention.

There is no possibility for peace with Muslims, unless it depended only on us. And peace at any cost is unacceptable because we have to leave the Land of Israel, according to Muslim barbarians.

There are certainly very many Americans and Europeans who believe that Israel is the root of the Muslim problem, that disavowing support of Israel will eliminate, or reduce to the level of nuisance, the Muslim threat to them.

Bubba Switzler;5445788:

The Jewish mission was not simply to live quietly in Israel and worship God in the Temple.

That’s why I am living the Jewish Mission by bringing God to the Gentiles. At least, I am doing better than Jesus, who always when he sent his disciples on a mission, he would warn them not to go to the Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5)

That contradicts your previous claim that “To be Jewish, one does not have to practice Judaism.”

Bubba Switzler;5445788:

The Nazerenes were Jewish Christians. But setting names aside, they were ejected from Judaism by the Rabbinical Jews just as you reject Messianic Jews today. And this occurred long before the theology of the trinity and before Christian anti-Semitism, before any other modern Jewish complaint against Christianity.

You are mistaken about the Nazarenes. They never had anything to do with Christians. They rather lived at odds with Christians as Paul would rob them of their converts in order to build his churches, like a cuckcoo bird.

Yes, Paul the corrupter. An opinion you assert without a shred of evidence.

 

[Ben_Masada]

So let me pose a hypothetical. I want to introduce you to Samuel. Samuel is from a Jewish family; both sides trace back to Abraham and have kept the rabbinical tradition as long as anyone remembers.

Samuel, though, has been reading the NT and other materials and has come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah promised by the Jewish prophets. He believes that Jesus was crucified and that he rose from the dead.

But he does not believe that the NT is scripture, the Word of God in the same way that the Torah is. He believes that Paul was just another 1C Jewish thinker with his own opinions and does not regard them as the Word of God. He doesn’t subscribe to the Nicene or any other Christian creed.

Now the question I want to put to you is not “do you agree with Samuel” but “is Samuel a Jew?”

Yes, because your hypothetical does not make sense. How could Samuel read about something in a book, believes what the book says and does not believe the book? He believes what Paul says about Jesus but does not believe Paul? In that case, his belief is like what one believes after seeing a movie. And yes, he is Jewish. He is just not serious about what he believes. He has not confessed change of religious faith. I am acquainted here with a lady who believes just like your Samuel, and more because she has no problem with Paul. Nevertheless, she won’t confess openly to be Christian. Elijah had, at his time, this same kind of problems with the “Jews-for-Baal.” They would live like pagans but insisted with being identified as Jews. Because of their straddling the issue between Elohim and Baal, Elijah lost his patience and slitted the throats of 350 of their prophets. No difference between “Jews-for-Jesus” and “Messianic Jews” from the “Jews-for-Baal” of the time of Elijah. But don’t worry, I am not Elijah.

There are certainly very many Americans and Europeans who believe that Israel is the root of the Muslim problem, that disavowing support of Israel will eliminate, or reduce to the level of nuisance, the Muslim threat to them.

Tell me something new.

That contradicts your previous claim that “To be Jewish, one does not have to practice Judaism.”

Yes, not only, but one must either be born of a Jewish mother or convert according to Halacha.

Yes, Paul the corrupter. An opinion you assert without a shred of evidence.

Read about what he did in the Nazarene Synagogue of Antioch. (Acts 11:26) Read about what he did in the Nazarene Synagogue of Galatia. (Gal. 1:6-10; 4:21-31) And everywhere he arrived, he would rob the Nazarenes of their synagogues by overturning them into Christian churches. He was never able to build a church from scratch. I mean, with Gentiles only. And this was from his first station in the synagogues of Damascus until his last station in Rome.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Bubba Switzler;5450005:

Now the question I want to put to you is not “do you agree with Samuel” but “is Samuel a Jew?”

No, because your hypothetical does not make sense. How could Samuel read about something in a book, believes what the book says and does not believe the book? He believes what Paul says about Jesus but does not believe Paul? In that case, his belief is like what one believes after seeing a movie.
He believes what the Gospels say but he does not believe that the Gospels are the Word of God. He does not believe that Paul’s epistles are the Word of God. Remember, the NT (and the Bible generally) is not a single book but a collection of books by different authors in different circumstances. And I’ll bet you have books on your shelf that you find convincing but don’t believe to be the infallible Word of God.

Yes, he Jewish. He is just not serious about what he believes.

So what do think it was that led the Rabbinical Jews to persecute Jews like Samuel in 1C AD?

Bubba Switzler;5450005:

There are certainly very many Americans and Europeans who believe that Israel is the root of the Muslim problem, that disavowing support of Israel will eliminate, or reduce to the level of nuisance, the Muslim threat to them.

Tell me something new.

Here is something that may be new to you: (mostly secular) diaspora Jews are coming to agree with this position. There is a growing belief that the founding of modern Israel was a mistake. The basis of this belief is that the purpose of Israel was to provide a sanctuary for Jews (after the Holocaust). This is proving not to be the case and so they are rethinking the Zionist enterprise and dropping support for Israel from thieir list of priorities.

Bubba Switzler;5450005:

That contradicts your previous claim that “To be Jewish, one does not have to practice Judaism.”

Yes, not only but one must either be born of a Jewish mother or convert according to Halacha.

That would be two requirements, not alternative requiements. You claim in one place that Jews don’t need to practice Judaism and, in another place, that they must. Which is it?

Bubba Switzler;5450005:

Yes, Paul the corrupter. An opinion you assert without a shred of evidence.

Read about what he did in the Nazarene Synagogue of Antioch. (Acts 11:26) Read about what he did in the Nazarene Synagogue of Galatia. (Gal. 1:6-10; 4:21-31) And everywhere he arrived, he would rob the Nazarenes of their synagogues by overturning them into Christian churches. He was never able to build a church from scratch. I mean, with Gentiles only. And this was from his first station in the synagogues of Damascus until his last station in Rome.

All of that occured outside Israel among the gentiles. What led the Jewish authorities to persecute their fellow Jews in Israel?

 

[Insight]

Read about what he did in the Nazarene Synagogue of Antioch. (Acts 11:26) Read about what he did in the Nazarene Synagogue of Galatia. (Gal. 1:6-10; 4:21-31) And everywhere he arrived, he would rob the Nazarenes of their synagogues by overturning them into Christian churches. He was never able to build a church from scratch. I mean, with Gentiles only. And this was from his first station in the synagogues of Damascus until his last station in Rome.

People are unique, different personalities effect approaches and techniques. Paul was dynamic, he even clashed with Peter on certain issues.

Paul’s earlier Hebrew name was Saul. He was “of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee. Saul violently persecuted Christians prior to his conversion to Christianity. “Whatever trait a person displays in one type of action that is habitual, that person will tend to display in every other type of habitual action” (Dr. Hal Falcon). It would be expected that Paul’s enthusiasm and dynamic nature would still be intact after his conversion.

It is certainly understandable how some Jewish people can become offended with certain annotations. I have a friend who is a Rabbi. His primary objection is how some Catholics believe that Jews can not enter Heaven because the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. My reply to him was, there are several Bible quotes that assert that, but it might be wise to go straight to the source, what Jesus Himself said.

Matthew 19:16 tells us of a rich man who came to Jesus and asked: “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus replied, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments”. It was when the rich man asked: “What do I still lack?”, when Jesus told him to sell everything and give the proceeds to the poor and follow him. According to Jesus’ reply, keeping the commandments was adequate. Selling everything and following Him was the above and beyond.

God Bless