The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[Odell]

Yes, it is the “dog” that returns to his own vomit, and it is the “sow” who after being washed wallows in the mire again. IOW, they act according to their true nature. These were never saved, never regenerated by the Spirit, never born again in Christ Jesus. Their true nature came forth. I’ve seen it happen many times.

Actually it has nothing to do with there nature it has todo with them not responding to the grace that was given to them

 

[Philthy]

Phil, it’s what God does with it that matters. And He’s revealed it.

If its what God does with it, then why do you feel the need to talk to others about it?

It sounds as if your either trying to do something with it or are trying to get us to do something with it.

 

[Odell]

If its what God does with it, then why do you feel the need to talk to others about it?

It sounds as if your either trying to do something with it or are trying to get us to do something with it.

Why did God not do it for everybody

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I don’t know how you people keep up with this thread. I turn my back for just a second and like 2 more pages have gone by…

 

[Pax]

Yes, it is the “dog” that returns to his own vomit, and it is the “sow” who after being washed wallows in the mire again. IOW, they act according to their true nature. These were never saved, never regenerated by the Spirit, never born again in Christ Jesus. Their true nature came forth. I’ve seen it happen many times.

Does this scripture mean nothing to you? Does this scripture fail to scream the obvious to you?

Does the** washing **of the sow not mean anything to you? This refers to someone that has been washed and justified. Their sins were forgiven. These were believers that have lost their salvation. This is as obvious as the nose on your face. They had escaped the defilements of the world. They knew the way of righteousness and turned from it. A person that was always a non-believer could never have escaped the defilements of the world. Only a person that had been given God’s gift of grace in justification can escape the defilements of the world. No person can do that on their own. No unbeliever can know the way of righteousness. Knowing the way of righteousness is a gift of God by way of grace. This is a reference to believers that have fallen from grace.

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

The problem is that Augustine identifies those who haven’t persevered as having been called, having followed that call, being justified and renewed by the laver of regneration. That can only refer to a true Christian, not a false professor.

Of course Augustine would say that. His theology was sacramental, and it includes the teaching that baptism is a condition for salvation.

Those who hold to Biblical theology, understand that the condition for salvation is faith (John 3:16, 36; 5:24; Acts 16:31; Rom. 1:17; 4:5).

Baptism, however, is a work, an external work, an external “work of righteousness” (Matt. 3:15), and the Bible makes it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness (Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7).

 

[Pax]

Of course Augustine would say that. His theology was sacramental, and it includes the teaching that baptism is a condition for salvation.

Those who hold to Biblical theology, understand that the condition for salvation is faith (John 3:16, 36; 5:24; Acts 16:31; Rom. 1:17; 4:5).

Baptism, however, is a work, an external work, an external “work of righteousness” (Matt. 3:15), and the Bible makes it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness (Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7).

Hmm…Peter specifically says:

“Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”[1 Peter 3:21]

This is not the only verse of scripture that indicates that baptism saves, but it’s a start. That’s biblical theology.

 

[savedsinner]

Matthew 22:35-40
And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[Philthy]

Of course Augustine would say that. His theology was sacramental, and it includes the teaching that baptism is a condition for salvation.

Those who hold to Biblical theology, understand that the condition for salvation is faith (John 3:16, 36; 5:24; Acts 16:31; Rom. 1:17; 4:5).

If Im not mistaken, faith is a condition for Baptism as well. Baptism is an act of faith.

Sandusky:

Baptism, however, is a work, an external work, an external “work of righteousness” (Matt. 3:15),

I dont quite follow you here. Where did the “external” portion of your assessment come from, and why have you limited Baptism to merely the external?

and the Bible makes it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness (Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7).

We arent saved by “works of righteousness” if we are not “abiding in Him” ie, unless we’re in a state of justification - that’s Augustines point and James’ point. (James 2:24) We enter into that state of justification independent of anything we do - it is all God’s doing - and yes, it requires faith. Faith alone, when it does not pursue love, however, is clearly condemned in Scripture.

 

[Odell]

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
.

Jesus fulfilled the law for us I’m confused of why love fulfills the law.

Or why does the bible talk of love at all it dosnt matter if one loves

These passages will go ignored

 

[moondweller]

Does this scripture mean nothing to you? Does this scripture fail to scream the obvious to you?

Does the** washing **of the sow not mean anything to you? This refers to someone that has been washed and justified. Their sins were forgiven. These were believers that have lost their salvation. This is as obvious as the nose on your face. They had escaped the defilements of the world. They knew the way of righteousness and turned from it. A person that was always a non-believer could never have escaped the defilements of the world. Only a person that had been given God’s gift of grace in justification can escape the defilements of the world. No person can do that on their own. No unbeliever can know the way of righteousness. Knowing the way of righteousness is a gift of God by way of grace. This is a reference to believers that have fallen from grace.

2 Pet 2:17-22 "These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm,** for whom the black darkness has been reserved.** For speaking out arrogant {words} of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, "A sow, after washing, {returns} to wallowing in the mire.“This isn’t speaking of believers, born of the Spirit, Pax. These are those who received “the knowledge” of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but never went on to true belief in Him. Though influenced for a while they turned again to expose their true nature. They didn’t lose the salvation they never had. Read the whole chapter in context.2 Pet 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,…”

 

[BRB]

Pax stands erect at the plate and defiantly whacks his cleats with his bat…He sends a quick spit of tobacco over his shoulder as he digs into the batters box and awaits the next pitch …all the while glaring uninterupted at the opposing pitcher(s). The air is heavy and the crowd is reduced to silence…

Oh my … we’ve now got two play-by-play announcers in the upper booth. Phil can now do ‘color’ commentary for the Legalites.

 

[BRB]

God is at work here in ways that we dont understand and perhaps if we remember to trust Him in this regard we will have more patience with one another. Amen?

It’s either all that or it’s all BRBs fault for introducing the whole baseball/competition thing to begin with…

Phil …

I’m amazed at your recent posts. I certainly detecting a ‘softing’ of your heart. No longer the rabid legalite we used to know ? You have had a recent epiphany … have you not ?

Baseball is a beautiful game. It teaches us so much about individual & team play. Yet, its obsessed with the STATS.

Paul first taught us to see Christian ideals/motifs at play in sporting games. I’m convinced Christ wants us to all ENJOY the ultimate game in our lives, to EXCELL to our utmost, and to make the Hall of Fame & its eternal glory.

 

[mikeledes]

Of course Augustine would say that. His theology was sacramental, and it includes the teaching that baptism is a condition for salvation.

Those who hold to Biblical theology, understand that the condition for salvation is faith (John 3:16, 36; 5:24; Acts 16:31; Rom. 1:17; 4:5).

Baptism, however, is a work, an external work, an external “work of righteousness” (Matt. 3:15), and the Bible makes it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness (Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7).

I guess Luther did not hold to biblical theology either, since he believed in baptismal regeneration, as do modern-day Lutherans. So much for unity on fundamentals when in comes to faith alone. I also guess no one held to biblical theology for the first 1, 500 years of Christianity until John Calvin finally figured it out, since all of the early Church Fathers believed in baptismal regeneration. And this was clearly upheld by the Council of Orange, which Calvinists also love to cite to give their doctrine a historical pedigree:

**According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. **

Oh, and now that I’m on the Council of Orange, here is its exegesis of John 15 in canon 24:

CANON 24. Concerning the branches of the vine. The branches on the vine do not give life to the vine, but receive life from it; thus the vine is related to its branches in such a way that it supplies them with what they need to live, and does not take this from them. Thus it is to the advantage of the disciples, not Christ, both to have Christ abiding in them and to abide in Christ. For if the vine is cut down another can shoot up from the live root; but one who is cut off from the vine cannot live without the root (John 15:5ff).

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_orange.html

Baptism is not a work that posits a merit. It is the means ordained by God through we He has chosen to confer His gift. Or do you believe that because God uses a means to confer a gift - and one uses that means to receive it - that what is received is no longer a gift? That is definitely not true:

2 Timothy 1:6

** 6For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. **

So because Timothy allowed Paul to lay his hands on him, that what he received was no longer a gift? And the Bible states the following regarding baptism:

38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Augsutine did not base his teachings on predestination on his sacramentology. He based his teachings on sacramentology and predestination on what was taught by Christ and His apostles.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

.Under the Law men were commanded to love God with all their heart, soul and mind. Under grace it’s the other way around. It’s understanding God’s infinite love toward us in the Person and work of Jesus Christ that should in turn have a profound effect (in the Spirit) on one’s love toward God and fellow man, but especially those of the household of the faith:1 John 4:10-11 "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another."One’s love for God, I believe, is in direct proportion to the depth of one’s understanding of His love toward us in Christ Jesus. I believe one cannot truly love God until he has truly understood (grasped) God’s GRACE in Christ. Only then, as the believer grows in the depth of this grace, can his love of God increase.

?

MD is back on track, another pure swing drives a hit to center field … to the wall. Man safely on 2nd.

 

[Odell]

2 Pet 2:17-22 "These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm,** for whom the black darkness has been reserved.** For speaking out arrogant {words} of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, "A sow, after washing, {returns} to wallowing in the mire.“This isn’t speaking of believers, born of the Spirit, Pax. These are those who received “the knowledge” of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but never went on to true belief in Him. Though influenced for a while they turned again to expose their true nature. They didn’t lose the salvation they never had. Read the whole chapter in context.2 Pet 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,…”

So according to moondwellers comintary what is the vomit that these people returned to who where never really saved in the first place?

Also what is your definition of true nature?

If they returnd to there vomit and exsposed there true nature what where they exsposing and how?

 

[mikeledes]

Under the Law men were commanded to love God with all their heart, soul and mind. Under grace it’s the other way around. It’s understanding God’s infinite love toward us in the Person and work of Jesus Christ that should in turn have a profound effect (in the Spirit) on one’s love toward God and fellow man, but especially those of the household of the faith:1 John 4:10-11 "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another."One’s love for God, I believe, is in direct proportion to the depth of one’s understanding of His love toward us in Christ Jesus. I believe one cannot truly love God until he has truly understood (grasped) God’s GRACE in Christ. Only then, as the believer grows in the depth of this grace, can his love of God increase.

Is Law/commandment keeping really the standard by which God measures one’s love of Him? Is this how all father/son relationships are to be defined?

The standard by which God will judge is LOVE (the Law of Liberty) and not the Mosaic Law:

James 2:12-13

12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

Matthew 5:7

7"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

How does one speak and act as one who will be judged by the law of liberty? How does* love *translate into conduct? By not killing, not committing adultery, not stealing, etc. The principle and foundation for keeping God’s commandments under the Law of Christ is love, not legalistic and sterile observance of the letter of the law. Revelation 12:17 states:

**17So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. **

Now you seem to say that if we have faith, love automatically will happen. The Bible clearly attributes works pleasing to God to love:

Revelation 2:4-5

4’But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
5’Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first

So where there is love of God and neighbor, there must be good works:

John 3:17

17But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

So please explain to us why are there fruitless genuine Christians (John 15:2, 2 Peter 1:8-9), if love necessarily bears fruit? How can one who loves God and neighbor cease to abide in Christ? Also explain to us how you reconcile the the existence of fruitless Christians with James 2? James 2:5

**5Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? **

Faith alone makes love purely incidental.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

We don’t believe that justification is a once in a lifetime moment. I’ll leave that one for my fellow Catholics on this thread to discuss since my plate is full right now. However, we do believe that the moment we are justified, that that justification is not incomplete. And by incomplete I mean that we are half-forgiven or half-saved (in it’s first stage) and have to make up for what is lacking. That is not Catholic teaching.

Secondly, when we talk about works, we are talking about works done by the just because it is justification that makes those works sacrifices pleasing to God, that gives it a “sweet-smelling aroma (Phillipians 4:18).” Though I disagree with Matthew Henry on a number of points - for obvious reasons - he does make one point that I agree with in his commentary on James 2:

1. When Paul says that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law (Rom. iii. 28), he plainly speaks of another sort of work than James does, but not of another sort of faith. Paul speaks of works wrought in obedience to the law of Moses, and before men’s embracing the faith of the gospel; and he had to deal with those who valued themselves so highly upon those works that they rejected the gospel (as Rom. x., at the beginning most expressly declares); but James speaks of works done in obedience to the gospel…

For Paul, “works of the law” are those works done in obdience to the law of Moses *prior *to coming to faith and being justified. Since these works are done while one is in a state of bondage to sin, they in no way can free us from that bondage because they fall short, which is Paul’s main point in Romans and Galatians. They are not rooted in faith and love and we cannot properly believe or love by our own natural powers, both are gifts of God. God must intervene. James is talking about works done by the just in obedience to the Law of Christ, the Law of Liberty. Unlike the works done prior to faith and justification, these works flow from a faith that works through love. Neither faith nor love can exist in a person who hasn’t been justified. Faith is the beginning and foundation of all things pertaining to salvation. Without it you cannot please God (Hebrews 11:6). Without faith, you cannot have love. Hence the presence of love is the objective evidence of faith. It is through love that faith is made manifest. The obective evidence of love is works, for love must manifest itself in works. So when James says that faith is perfected by works, he means that faith is perfected by love, for he clearly attributes works to love:

James 1:25

25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

Works naturally flows when one is fulfilling the law of liberty, namely, love. Like faith, the object of true love is outward, not inward. Hence, love must always be humble (1 Corinthians 13:4-5) - recognizing it’s totaldependence on the One who is Love Himelf - and does not glory in itself. It gives glory to the One who is the proper object of love, God. And love of God automatically means love of neighbor, for one cannot exist without the other (1 John 4:20). The relationship between faith, love and the promised kingdom is made clear by James and reinforces what he said in later in chapter 2:

James 2:5

5Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

God Bless,
Michael

I reaffirm what I stated above.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

So according to moondwellers comintary what is the vomit that these people returned to who where never really saved in the first place?

If they returnd to there vomit and exsposed there true nature what where they exsposing and how?

MD … tagged out, while trying to steal 3rd.

Moon… come now, clearly the sow had ‘been washed —baptised’. Most probably a case of a Prodigal Son … leaving the Father after an adoption.

 

[BRB]

These were never saved, never regenerated by the Spirit, never born again in Christ Jesus. Their true nature came forth. I’ve seen it happen many times.

MD … give us some examples of these people you have known who fell away.

Perhaps they received initial ‘imputed’ grace … but, never put down roots to receive the daily ‘infused’ grace, by indwelling of H.S., that is so crucial to our perseverance.