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sandusky
Guest
I reaffirm the above the post #671.
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mikeledes
Guest
It’s there for everyone to read. I’ll let those reading be the judge. IMO, if you were not saying that baptismal regeneration = works righteousness (i.e. salvation by a work), then I don’t see the point of post # 642. It’s a moot point.
God bless,
Michael
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BRB
Guest
For heaven’s sake, BRB, everyone is a dispensationalist in one way or another believing that God has worked in time through various economies.
You believe that God related to man differently before the Fall, than He did after the Fall, and before the Cross (law), and after the Cross (grace); don’t you?
Even the RC refers to this in the CCC:**SECTION ONE
THE SACRAMENTAL ECONOMY
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Sandusky…
You know the Church doesn’t accept meaning of dispensation like you do.
RCC uses it in the sense of ‘distribution’ … where the other newage group uses it in sense of ‘suspension of’ the Law, Sacrifices, or Time [allowing for various time periods to be set forth].
I’m not saying all ideas in your fundamental based theory don’t have merit …but, to the degree it tosses out Covenantal Theology it is badly flawed.
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sandusky
Guest
Who would know better what I meant, Mike, me, or you?
What you understood me to be saying, is not what I said.
Unless you think, in this particular point, that I’m a liar; do you?
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Philthy
Guest
Perhaps what you intended to communicate was not what you understood what you said to mean. Words on a page - so much confusion without a referee to make a call. In such situations a tie goes to the runner. Home plate ump gets the final call.
Well, technically a lie would require that not only did you purposely miscommunicate but that Mike has the right to know the truth. That doesnt apply here.
There’s also a very good chance that your association with me on the “Commandment Crushers” is not helping your reputation.
One thing I am sure of is that the question indicates that the two of you either need to speak privately (PM) or simply move on.
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moondweller
Guest
If you’re that fearful of dispensationalists, be careful backing away from one so that you don’t fall into another.
And BRB hits a “foul” ball.
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sandusky
Guest
Because one physically goes to a baptistery, or however you refer to it, and either immerses himself in it, or is sprinkled from it.
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ryanoneil
Guest
I’m sorry for not responding right away. We moved to a new house, I started a new job, and we had to wait for the internet connection.
**For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (Eph 2:10) **
I agree with you when speaking of “works of the law.” That was the OT system Paul speaks of so often. (Where they tried to obligate God to owe them something)
We are talking about two different systems here. There is a clear distinction between “works of law” (Mosaic law/legal payment) and “good works” (law of Christ/reward of grace).
and “A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall.” They stumble by disobeying the word, as is their destiny. (1 Pet 2:8)
Faith is faith and works are works. The key is understanding the difference between the two kinds of works. (and their relation to faith)
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)
It doesn’t sound like either/or to me, it sounds like both/and (in a system of grace).
So is turning faith into something devoid of the good works God has prepared for us.
**For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (Eph 2:10) **
I agree with you when speaking of “works of the law.” That was the OT system Paul speaks of so often. (Where they tried to obligate God to owe them something)
We are talking about two different systems here. There is a clear distinction between “works of law” (Mosaic law/legal payment) and “good works” (law of Christ/reward of grace).
So if disbelief is not obeying, then isn’t it true that belief is obeying?
and “A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall.” They stumble by disobeying the word, as is their destiny. (1 Pet 2:8)
And doesn’t that also include the obedient vs. disobedient?
Am I?
Faith is faith and works are works. The key is understanding the difference between the two kinds of works. (and their relation to faith)
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)
It doesn’t sound like either/or to me, it sounds like both/and (in a system of grace).
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Odell
Guest
I wonder if the works God has prepared for us has anything to do with the father wills?
Moon seems to think the only thing the father wills is faith
He has to believe this because I quoted scripture that said not “every one who calls me lord lord will enter heaven but the one who does the will of the father”
You likly want get a response from moon regarding this verse because works God has prepared would mean that the fathers will includes works
Also that is not a father son relationship in his mind doing what God wants of us is somehow not being a good child
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Pax
Guest
I took the entire context into consideration. Peter’s remarks are candid and very cutting descriptions of those that have fallen away. Once again, you go well beyond the limits of credulity by making another absurd comment that a plain reading of the text does not support.
No one is washed if not justified. No one “receives” the knowledge of the truth of our Lord and Savior unless they are given it by grace. Those that you speak of are those that rejected it from the get go. The ones you speak of never “received” it. The text, as opposed to your contentions would indicate that they believed, but they “turned back.” This is not the language that applies to someone that never believed/received the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is the perspicuity of scripture that Protestants like to make much of, until it disagrees with their errant interpretations. You are the one rejecting the context.
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Pax
Guest
Excellent web link!
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Pax
Guest
I’m not sure I understand what you need. Your posts indicate that you do not believe in baptismal regeneration, and that you believe in “faith alone.” This quote and others would indicate otherwise.
If you want me to post additional quotes supporting the necessity of baptism for salvation, I can do that but it’s clearly tangential to the thread. We have plenty of past threads that explore the issue.
Anyway, if you want to go further with it, that’s cool with me.
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moondweller
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Pax
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True…until those that were created in Christ Jesus for the good works that the Father prepared beforehand decide to no longer walk in them.
That is rebellion and the quick exit from the household into a life of dissipation in the flesh.
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sandusky
Guest
I realized I didn’t answer the second part of your question in blue.
That’s because baptism is the outward expression of an inward reality; IOW, only those who have repented, and who have been forgiven their sins, and are thereby justified should be baptized—believer’s baptism.
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moondweller
Guest
So then am I to understand that you believe God un-creates that which He creates? One decides to no longer walk in those “good works” so God un-creates him “in Christ Jesus” and places him back “in Adam,” again dead in trespasses and sins and again in need of salvation?
Can you give men another example where God un-creates that which He created?
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ryanoneil
Guest
period? That is because you believe in OSAS (a one shot deal).
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. (Phil 2:12)
Salvation is an ongoing process. (justification as well)
v.8-9 (and 11-16) refer to “works” of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father.
It seems we agree the “good works” in Eph 2:10 are not the same works found in v.8-9 or 11-16.
These are the “good works” we must remain in, in order not to lose our salvation. What works/system we are in matters in the end.
who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. (Rom 2:6-10)
You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. (Mat 10:22)
Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.
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ryanoneil
Guest
I won’t speak for Pax, but we’ve been over this already. I don’t think anyone has said God
un-creates anything. (except you)
God didn’t un-create Adam (who was a new creation at the time). He fell from grace.
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