The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[BRB]

You realize that MD does not believe a person can forfeit a salvation already given, right?

God Bless,
Michael

I’m not sure what he believes regarding apostasy. However, that’s slightly off topic.

We must first verify we have correct Biblical understandings regarding the legalism/works/faith/salvation issues.

Once we know we have correct theology on salvation … then we can rightly worry about the loss thereof.

 

[mikeledes]

I’m not sure what he believes regarding apostasy. However, that’s slightly off topic.

We must first verify we have correct Biblical understandings regarding the legalism/works/faith/salvation issues.

Once we know we have correct theology on salvation … then we can rightly worry about the loss thereof.

I brought it up because the post you quoted and praised is related to that issue.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

buy some popcorn, and enjoy the show.

Christian apologetics isn’t for show — its our Olympic event, our race towards our high calling in C.J.

We must focus on the ball, swing the bat, connect with target, and run the bases in life.

It’s oftentimes the result of good preparation & teamplay …

 

[mikeledes]

Christian apologetics isn’t for show — its our Olympic event, our race towards our high calling in C.J.

We must focus on the ball, swing the bat, connect with target, and run the bases in life.

It’s oftentimes the result of good preparation & teamplay …

I stand corrected. So what I should day is buy a hot dog and enjoy the ballgame.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[BRB]

I brought it up because the post you quoted and praised is related to that issue.

God Bless,
Michael

Are you referring to Jn.5:24 ?

 

[BRB]

I stand corrected. So what I should day is buy a hot dog and enjoy the ballgame.

God Bless,
Michael

The day they serve Hebrew Nationals

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I stand corrected. So what I should day is buy a hot dog and enjoy the ballgame.

God Bless,
Michael

Some denominations are vegetarian, so I think we should bring some tofu hotdogs (blah!).

 

[moondweller]

I’m not sure what he believes regarding apostasy.

I gave you my understanding of apostasy here.

However, that’s slightly off topic.

We must first verify we have correct Biblical understandings regarding the legalism/works/faith/salvation issues.

Once we know we have correct theology on salvation … then we can rightly worry about the loss thereof.

Very good logic.

If that link doesn’t work, it’s post #10.

 

[moondweller]

You don’t believe in mortal sin?

Did you ask me that before? I do not believe in “a sin to death” (1 Jn. 5:16-17) as defined by Catholicism. Not even John defines it. How is it, then, that men have built a full blown doctrine on damnation based on that most obscure passage in Scripture?

No Apostle ever defined what Catholicism calls a “mortal sin.” But instead, the Apostolic message was/is:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Col 1:14 "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."And what prevents anyone from receiving forgiveness of ALL his sins and the inheritance of eternal life is unbelief. The scriptures are very clear on this. But men always stumble over the simplicity of this Apostolic message. Even theologians.Mark 3:28-29 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”…says Jesus.

John records the context of "blasphemes against the Holy Spirit:"Mark 3:30 "because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."Which amounts to unbelief.

 

[Pax]

John 6:70 "Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and {yet} one of you is a devil?”“Son of perdition” is a direct reference to Judas. He was never a “son of God” through faith in Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:26), but is called by Christ Himself “a devil” and the “son of perdition.”

Also, take note that when Jesus said His High Priestly prayer in the upper room, on behalf of His disciples, Judas was not present (Jn. 13:27-30). He was not included but was busy doing the Devil’s work.“Son of perdition” means he never believed, Pax.Men are saved through faith in Christ, Judas never believed in Him. Don’t revise history, especially Biblical history.Judas’ sin was unbelief. That is the only sin that causes damnation:John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; **he who does not believe **has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 ¶ “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”…says Christ.1 Tim 1:15 “It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost.”…says Paul.

Sorry, but you are manufacturing a meaning that is not in scripture. When Jesus “chose” the twelve the Greek uses the word for “elect.” Judas is never referred to as a devil or the son of perdition until shortly before he betrays Jesus. The reference in John chapter six occurs shortly before Jesus goes to Jerusalem to be crucified.

These references to Judas come at this point in the gospel narratives because of his choice to associate himself with the evil one. Before this he worshipped Jesus as the son of God[Matt 14:33]. There is nothing in scripture to indicate that Judas did not believe, but there is plenty showing that he did.

One can clearly believe and then betray the Lord. This is exactly what Judas did and it for this reason that scripture refers to him as a “betrayer” and not as an unbeliever.

You simply cannot get around this obvious truth. The only time Judas lacks belief is when Jesus identifies him as one of those that did not believe him when he said that he would give us his flesh to eat and his blood to drink in John 6. Most non-Catholics do not believe that Jesus meant what he said and neither did Judas. If non-Catholics are “true believers”, using your terminology, then so was Judas because he also believed and worshiped Jesus as the son of God. He simply didn’t believe in the promise of the Eucharist just as many non-Catholic Christians do not believe today.

Your doctrine says faith alone. Judas had faith. You say Judas wasn’t saved. Therefore, salvation cannot be by faith alone. James even directly states that salvation is not by faith alone.

Your doctrine says that salvation is by faith alone. Judas had faith.

Your doctrine says that a believer cannot lose there salvation. Judas was a believer but lost his salvation. OSAS simply doesn’t comply with the scriptural data either by way of general scriptural statements and definitions or by the example of Judas and others.

 

[Pax]

RC’s erroneously interpret this as Purgatory. But it’s not sins that are being revealed and purged in these passages. But it is “each man’s work” that the fire (judgment) will test for quality.

This is simply not true. It has already been pointed out to you that “sin” means “to fall short.” You can look this up yourself and verify that point.

This bears directly on the testing of one’s work. The individual will suffer loss if his works are of wood, hay, or straw.

You are wrong to say that this is a test of “quality.” It most certainly is not.

The scripture says:

1 Cor 3:12-13

…gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw–each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test **what sort of work **each one has done.

Please notice that this is a statement of type not quality.

Young’s Bible renders the pertinent portion of verse 13 this way:

" …because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove;

You do not suffer loss if you have done good work, and then gain rewards only for the works that are of higher quality. You suffer loss for those things that fall short and have no value. Sin is falling short.

 

[Pax]

BRB,

This is not an OSAS thread, or at least I didn’t think it was. If you would like to start an OSAS thread I will happily join in and lay a mountain of scripture against the teaching.

 

[ryanoneil]

You originally asked?

What “LAW” of the New Covenant?

I responded with

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. . . . (Mat 5:17-20)

AND

Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. (Gal 6:2)

This is the law we are now under in the New Covenant.

You’re lifting this verse out of context and applying it out of context. All Paul is saying in that verse is that possession of Divine truth can avail nothing with God apart from subjection and obedience to it. Paul is exposing the subtle power of the deceitfulness of sin over the self-righteous, religious, heart that settles down to a false peace because of merely knowing God’s truth.

No matter how you cut it, Gal 6:2 speaks of the new “LAW” we are under in the New Covenant.

For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2)

To those outside the law I became like one outside the law–though I am not outside God’s law but within the law of Christ–to win over those outside the law. (1 Cor 9:21)

For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love. For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Gal 5:13-14)

All of this goes right back to

Mat 5:17-20 and what Jesus says right after

"You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna. (Mat 5:21-22)

This is the Law of Christ

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Mat 5:27-28)

This is also the Law of Christ. The Law of Love. Keep reading. We are bound to THIS “LAW” which includes, concludes, retains, and refines the Old Covenant Law.

 

[ryanoneil]

eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works. (Rom 2:7)

Not “works of the (Old Covenant) law” but the (New Covenant) “law of Christ.”

But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. (Rom 2:10)

Not “works of the law” but the “law of Christ.”

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom 2:13)

Not “works of the law” but the “law of Christ.”

No “Faith” no justification. No “Works” of the New Covenent Law of Christ (Law of Love) no Faith.

So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. (James:2:17-18)

 

[moondweller]

Your doctrine says that salvation is by faith alone. Judas had faith.

If Judas had “faith” then the whole world is saved. :dts:

 

[moondweller]

Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. (Gal 6:2)

This is the law we are now under in the New Covenant.

So then in order to hope to be saved (which must be a future event) you must continually bear other people’s burdens. Is there a number attached to this Law you must fulfill? A quota? Is it restricted to those in your neighborhood? City? State? Country? Continent? World?

So, according to you, Jesus refined the Law from being a burden of just the 10 Commandments to now having to take on the burden’s of others. I’ve got a bunch for you if you’re at all interested. Remember, your salvation depends on it. I’ve got the burden of a mortgage I’d like to get off my back. Thanks!!!

What do you think Peter meant when he said:Acts 15:10-11 “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

 

[Pax]

If Judas had “faith” then the whole world is saved. :dts:

Don’t attempt to use a new error on your part to defend a previous one.

It has been proven by way of scripture that Judas had faith. It has been shown by scripture that he was a betrayer.

It is also an obvious fact that the whole world does not have faith, and it is quite clear from scripture that the whole world is not saved.

Address the scriptures that were presented. This is something that you have been avoiding on this and other issues such as those concerning Abraham and his justification on three different occasions.

 

[Pax]

So then in order to hope to be saved (which must be a future event) you must continually bear other people’s burdens. Is there a number attached to this Law you must fulfill? A quota? Is it restricted to those in your neighborhood? City? State? Country? Continent? World?

So, according to you, Jesus refined the Law from being a burden of just the 10 Commandments to now having to take on the burden’s of others. I’ve got a bunch for you if you’re at all interested. Remember, your salvation depends on it. I’ve got the burden of a mortgage I’d like to get off my back. Thanks!!!

What do you think Peter meant when he said:Acts 15:10-11 “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

Your thinking and understanding of our position continues to be faulty.

There are no quotas. Your efforts to define the law of Christ as a system of wage is simply erroneous. If the law of Christ and the system of grace, and the good works that the Father prepared in advance of your justification were a system of earning your salvation then Paul would be uttering self contradictory statements in his letters.

Lawless people are not saved and there are numerous places in the NT that say so. We are done with sin. We can no longer live in it.

Salvation is to be understood in terms of the NT family of God. Our salvation is based on being made adopted sons and daughters of God in Christ Jesus our brother. As members of the household we are finished with sin and we can no longer live in the flesh. We live in the Spirit and are lead by the Spirit.

If we decide to live in the flesh then we are like the Prodigal Son and we will be leaving the household to live a life of dissipation in the flesh. Living in the flesh and living in the Spirit are totally incompatible with one another.

You are a slave of whatever you serve. The Spirit gives life and the flesh brings death. Why is this so difficult for you to understand when it is made so clear in scripture?

 

[BRB]

BRB,

This is not an OSAS thread, or at least I didn’t think it was. If you would like to start an OSAS thread I will happily join in and lay a mountain of scripture against the teaching.

I agree with you. In due time, perhaps.

Propose it in a new thread [construct the hypothesis language]. Right now, Philthy and Robert SD are debating it on the ‘Salvation Assurance for Catholics’ thread … and Philthy doesn’t like my thread construct.

Either he / you can set the rules … and the OSAS disciples will show up for battle.

 

[BRB]

There is nothing in scripture to indicate that Judas did not believe, but there is plenty showing that he did.

Judas had faith. Judas was a believer but lost his salvation. .

Nope, not factual.

Christ tells us more on the subject … which you have not yet taken to heart.

Jn 6:64-65 “But, there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew FROM THE FIRST who those were that DID NOT BELIEVE, and who it was that should betray him. And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Jn 6:70 "Jesus answered them, “Did I not chose you, the 12, and one of you is a devil?”

Jn13:18 " I am NOT SPEAKING OF YOU ALL; I know WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me’.

So it is written … therein lies the Truth of the matter. You cannot use Judas to support ‘your’ OSAS disbeliefs.