The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[ryanoneil]

So then in order to hope to be saved (which must be a future event)

Yes and No. We have been, am being, and will be saved. Past, present, and future.

**He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began (2 Tim. 1:9) **Past

. . . work out your salvation with fear and trembling. (Phil. 2:12) Present

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. (Matt. 10:22) Future

you must continually bear other people’s burdens. Is there a number attached to this Law you must fulfill? A quota?

Yes, you must continually bear other people’s burdens. No there isn’t a number or quota. If you are not loving your neighbor as yourself you are not fulfilling the law of Christ.

What is your interpretation of Gal 6:2?

Is it restricted to those in your neighborhood? City? State? Country? Continent? World?

Read Luke 10:25-37 for the answer.

What is your interpretation of this scripture?

So, according to you, Jesus refined the Law from being a burden of just the 10 Commandments to now having to take on the burden’s of others.

According to me? If the golden rule isn’t the law of Christ, then what is it? Is it a suggestion we are not obligated to follow?

I’ve got a bunch for you if you’re at all interested. Remember, your salvation depends on it. I’ve got the burden of a mortgage I’d like to get off my back. Thanks!!!

HA HA! Good one.

Loving or rejecting our neighbors is loving or rejecting Jesus.

When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink (Mat 25:39-42)

What do you think Peter meant when he said:Acts 15:10-11 “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

He is speaking of the Mosaic Law. The law of Christ is not the Mosaic Law. It is the fulfillment of it. Good works are not “works of the law”. They are the fulfillment of them. (through the grace of the Lord Jesus)

What do you think Jesus meant when he said:

"Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light." (Mat 11:28-30)

What do you think Jesus yoke is?

 

[CentralFLJames]

We are Paul’s team. Those that do not understand the apostle aren’t on any team at all.

Well, ahem, technically speaking they are not sitting on the bench if they are opposed to us.

Matthew 12:30
"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

One thing is certain, they are not spectators. So unless they are shagging foul balls and acting as mascots and bat boys I think we would have a devil of a time calling them The Saints.

James

 

[Pax]

md,

This is for your edification on the the relationship of faith/belief and obedience/disobedience in scripture. When scripture speaks of disobedience in the NT it will often use the Greek word apisteo or a derivation by way of correct grammar.

The word for belief/faith is pisteuo.
Phonetic: pist-yoo’-o

Pisteuo means to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ): --believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

The word apisteo is obviously related to pisteuo.

You can check The New Testament Greek Lexicon for the following information:

Strong’s Number: 544 a)peiqeÑw
Original Word Word Origin
a)peiqeÑw from (545)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Apeitheo ap-i-theh’-o
Parts of Speech TDNT
Verb 6:10,818
Definition
not to allow one’s self to be persuaded
to refuse or withhold belief
to refuse belief and **obedience **
**not to comply with **

Translated Words
KJV (16) - believe not, 8; disobedient, 4; obey not, 3; unbelieving, 1;
NAS (14) - disbelieved, 1**; disobedient, 10; do not obey, 1; obey, 2**;

This should help you just a bit in appreciating what the NT authors such as Paul are talking about when they speak of faith. Moreover, this understanding has always been part of the OT Jewish use of the word “belief” as well.

You simply cannot separate the two ideas of faith and obedience. Your faith is empty and dead without obedience to the law of Christ.

Now I will make a request which has been made before.

Please top attempting to twist our statements into something they are not. We in no way, shape, or form believe that we earn our salvation. There is absolutely no connection to living in the Spirit and earning our salvation in Catholic teaching.

You have been told this many times over the course of your participation on this forum. We would sincerely appreciate it if you would refrain from mistating and twisting Catholic teaching.

 

[Thing]

Did you ask me that before? I do not believe in “a sin to death” (1 Jn. 5:16-17) as defined by Catholicism. Not even John defines it. How is it, then, that men have built a full blown doctrine on damnation based on that most obscure passage in Scripture?

No Apostle ever defined what Catholicism calls a “mortal sin.” But instead, the Apostolic message was/is:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Col 1:14 "in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."And what prevents anyone from receiving forgiveness of ALL his sins and the inheritance of eternal life is unbelief. The scriptures are very clear on this. But men always stumble over the simplicity of this Apostolic message. Even theologians.Mark 3:28-29 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”…says Jesus.

John records the context of "blasphemes against the Holy Spirit:"Mark 3:30 "because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."Which amounts to unbelief.

Do you mean that if you have belief once - you can never lose it, as in, commit the mortal sin of unbelief?

 

[BRB]

We are Paul’s team. .

MoonD …

They now desire ‘Free Agency’ [Grace] … so they can abandon Moses legalites … & join Paul’s faithful.

Can they join up … w/o first doing some serious Purgatory time ?

 

[Pax]

Well certainly the master of this debate … so far. Thanks for the kudos to Paul’s team.

But, MD’s illumination comes from a higher Master, as Lord

As opposed to the wisdom given by God to the Church that Jesus established? I don’t think so.

 

[Pax]

MoonD …

They now desire ‘Free Agency’ [Grace] … so they can abandon Moses legalites … & join Paul’s faithful.

Can they join up … w/o first doing some serious Purgatory time ?

Would you please get serious and re-read all of my posts on this thread and on the first one. We are not hung up on Moses legalities. You either live in the Spirit or you live in the flesh. You are a slave to the one or you are enslaved by the other. One can begin in the Spirit and end in the flesh.[Gal 3:3]

Paul states it all rather nicely in Romans 8:12-17 where he says:

“So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–for if you live according to the flesh you will die,** but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.** For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ,** provided** we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.”

Notice that we are “debtors.” We are debtors to the incredible gift of life provided to us by the work of Jesus on the cross. This term is rich with meaning and we cannot ignore it. If we live in the flesh and not by the Spirit we will die. We will be condemned. All of this instruction is expressed in the context of our family relationship with God as adopted sons and daughters. It is not expressed in the legalistic sense of the OT law.

Please take note that we have been hammering this point home over and over on this and the previous thread, but so far it has been ignored.

You have been put on notice. We believe what the scripture says here, and not what you pretend to portray as our beliefs and doctrines.

While you are thinking about all of this, please take note of the word “provided,” highlighted in bold, in verse 17 from the passage above. That one word in that one passage refutes OSAS. There are many more passages in scripture that also refute OSAS and that show the provisional nature of salvation. I have personally researched over 60 passages of scripture that deny the doctrine. None of these passages are taken by Catholics as legalistic, and our views of them do not conform to your strawman criticisms.

They simply are what they are and they deny OSAS.

 

[savedsinner]

MD …

They are in a panic. Desperate for an ACE Pitcher/Hitters to come down from the Major Leagues, and give them a big inning surge.

Current Scoreboard:

Paul’s NT team… 5 hits / 4 runs / 0 errs
Moses’ OT team…3 hits / 1 run / TNTC errs

Which team was Jesus on?

Taking into consideration his teachings on obeying the commandments and all.

Or could it be that the both Paul and Moses are on Jesus’ team, and you are just selecting your favorite player from that team and following his stats.

 

[ryanoneil]

To lose such a gifted salvation based on grace through faith God would have to un-create that one whom He “created in Christ Jesus” upon belief in Him. God never “un-creates” anything. Unless you can give me an example of He doing so in Scripture.

Did God un-create the Old Covenant?

 

[Pax]

He apparently uncreated Adam too.

 

[moondweller]

You avoided answering, “How is grace still grace if it requires faith?”
You are the master, MD. How is it that faith is not required, exactly? If Im not mistaken - and Im not - faith IS required and God saves the sinner upon the REQUIRED faith in Christ.

You just answered your own question. GOD saves the sinner. Faith doesn’t: “For by grace (God’s) you have been saved through faith…” And THAT remains the question, does God save, or do you save yourself?

IF you thought that you had somehow actually addressed my question then you are mistaken…again. Care to try again?
I’ll make it easier for you: Is faith grace? Y or N

**NO! **

If faith is not grace( and it is a necessary component of salvation) then how is grace still grace if it requires faith to be effective?

Grace is connected to and originates in God, not man.

In addition, I never used the term law, I simply said that “Such a life will not violate the 10 commandments without eternal consequence”.

Rom 4:15 “for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.”

Like I said, impractical blubbering.

1 Cor 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."What can I say that Paul hasn’t?

 

[Philthy]

Well certainly the master of this debate … so far. Thanks for the kudos to Paul’s team.

But, MD’s illumination comes from a higher Master, as Lord

I take great confidence in the fact that you are on MD’s side. And what is that side? It is the side that the Catholics are wrong whether or not you and MD can agree on what is actually right.
Among the many questions continually dodged:

• How do we know, exactly, what sin is?
• Is obedience a requirement of salvation faith for the mature Christian?
  Peter, Paul, James and Christ were quite clear on this in concrete, specific terms to believers and unbelievers. In addition, every single person who is revealed as having gone to heaven in the entirety of Scripture was obedient. Yet somehow we are to accept the interpretation- from limited, ambiguous verses- that obedience is optional. I dont see anything that either of you has offered to be even remotely compelling. Im not surprised that you disagree but the weight of your personal opinion remains insignificant and I find no discomfort in the fact that you are cheering for the “other side”.

 

[moondweller]

Yes and No. We have been, am being, and will be saved. Past, present, and future.

**He saved us **and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began (2 Tim. 1:9) Past

**. . . work out your salvation **with fear and trembling. (Phil. 2:12) Present

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. (Matt. 10:22) Future

Yes, you must continually bear other people’s burdens. No there isn’t a number or quota. If you are not loving your neighbor as yourself you are not fulfilling the law of Christ.

So then Paul is wrong, the believer (saved) are not “under grace,” but “under law.” It is not what Christ did, but what they must do.

What is your interpretation of Gal 6:2?

It fulfills this new commandment of Christ’s:John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.Fulfilling the “law of Christ” does not put the believer “under law.” Do you know what “not under law” means?

 

[moondweller]

Do you mean that if you have belief once - you can never lose it, as in, commit the mortal sin of unbelief?

One does not “commit” unbelief. One remains in unbelief.John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

…says Jesus.

 

[BRB]

You just answered your own question. GOD saves the sinner. Faith doesn’t: “For by grace (God’s) you have been saved through faith…” And THAT remains the question, does God save, or do you save yourself?**NO! **Grace is connected to and originates in God, not man.Rom 4:15 "for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation."1 Cor 2:14 “But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”?

Beautiful … what a pure swing ! Another ‘pinetarred’ ball … sent over the fence.

Add another run to Paul’s team tally

 

[moondweller]

Would you please get serious and re-read all of my posts on this thread and on the first one. We are not hung up on Moses legalities. You either live in the Spirit or you live in the flesh. You are a slave to the one or you are enslaved by the other. One can begin in the Spirit and end in the flesh.[Gal 3:3]

Paul states it all rather nicely in Romans 8:12-17 where he says:

“So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–for if you live according to the flesh you will die,** but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.** For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ,** provided** we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.”

Notice that we are “debtors.”

In respect to the believer, this is all put in context for you by Paul, Pax:Rom 8:8-12 "…and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–"The believer’s obligation is not to the flesh because he is “not in the flesh but in the Spirit.”

The same as, I am “obligated” to walk as a man because I am a man.

This has to do with proper identification, not a requirement for salvation.

What can I say that Paul has not already said?

 

[BRB]

I take great confidence in the fact that you are on MD’s side. And what is that side? It is the side that the Catholics are wrong whether or not you and MD can agree on what is actually right.
e".

Actually … I’m still holding an open mind. Trying to be ‘objective’ and keep a Fair score. You do have ONE run don’t you ? Maybe that was Pax’s

Once a cradle Protestant … now convinced that Catholics have history on their side … I’m seriously considering all the arguments made for both teams.

I haven’t ‘scored’ any of my posts as runs. But, I don’t think I’ve struck out either. Maybe I’m still on base … and can be advanced by MD or Sandusky.

I’m hopeing that a Big Hitter or Ace Pitcher will show up for Moses’ team … and get this game close once again.

No one likes to witness a rout.

Hint: Send a PM to FCEGM … or Scott Hahn, or Karl K.

 

[Philthy]

You just answered your own question. GOD saves the sinner. Faith doesn’t: “For by grace (God’s) you have been saved through faith…” And THAT remains the question, does God save, or do you save yourself?

Oh you are doin’ your dance again. We have already established that God saves. The only question is whether we can do anything to access grace or reject it. IF not, then why even have a gospel? God will save or he wont irrespective of anything we do. We all agree that grace is God’s. You confuse me with your “salvation is by grace through faith” mantra. The question remains, what is faith? Is it “God’s” or is it ours or is it both? If it is “God’s” like grace is, then why even bother pointing out that it is through faith? You have no answer. You havent moved an inch on the very practical question that the Jews asked Peter on the day of Pentecost:
“What must we do (to be saved)?” Peters answer was not “Do nothing. Salvation is by grace through faith alone” No, he pointed things for them to do to “save themselves” and recieve the gift of the HS.

**NO! **Grace is connected to and originates in God, not man.

Of course, but on what basis does God dispense his Grace? It seems like such a simple question. Is it or is it not on the basis of faith? And if it is on the basis of faith, which is not grace, and which involves the cooperation of the human will enlightened by the holy Spirit, then we do participate in our salvation. It doesnt mean we arent still entirely dependent upon God to be saved, but it does mean that we can choose to reject salvation.

1 Cor 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."What can I say that Paul hasn’t?

There’s nothing you need to say. It is by grace that we come to accept the things of the Spirit of God. We both agree on that. You seem to be confused on the issue of whether a spiritually enlightened person can, like the seed choked by the world, choose to reject the things of the Spirit of God when they become difficult to accept. If man can, then man can reject salvation through a decision he makes. If he can reject, he can also accept. Accepting requires the grace of God, but is not automatically accomplished apart from one’s will to accept or reject that grace.
It is usually at this point that we circle into salvation being “eternal” and therefore once it happens its forever. You never address the actual points above, but move on to the “eternal” nature of salvation, which is a separate issue. You base your rejection of the above argument(requirement of the cooperation of the will) not upon a direct refutation of anything presented, but upon another error - “once you are saved you are saved forever.” You make this error by imposing “forever” into our salvation during our earthly lives. Christ defines eternal life as the QUALITY of knowing God, which is different than the definition YOU impose on salvation. This difference invalidates your refutation of my argument above regarding the necessity that we cooperate with Gods grace in order to enter eternal life.
Any chance you’ll actually address the points presented?

 

[CentralFLJames]

In respect to the believer, this is all put in context for you by Paul, Pax:Rom 8:8-12 "…and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–"The believer’s obligation is not to the flesh because he is “not in the flesh but in the Spirit.”

The same as, I am “obligated” to walk as a man because I am a man.

This has to do with proper identification, not a requirement for salvation.

What can I say that Paul has not already said?

Let me see here. Are you suggesting that real men “hang it all out” when they walk about to identify themselves as real men? You have some pretty bizarre personal ideas about salvation that just don’t hold up to scripture nor apostolic tradition. You can’t cherry pick single verses from scripture and string them together like a pearl necklace to adorn yourself with your own fabricated truth. You must look at scripture holistically and more particularly you must accept the true apostolic teaching to have the proper faith. What can you say that Paul has not already said? You can first of all apologize to Paul for mosaicing his words to paint him into your corner that is in opposition to where he really stands.

I have never before seen scripture so badly twisted and mangled to suit one’s own private perspective and personal tastes. Grinding the flesh into ribbons of hamburger through labors of twisted logic and error does not mean that one is no longer living in the flesh. It just means one knows how to turn the crank to deconstruct and remove orthodox form from substance.

James

 

[Philthy]

BRB:

No one likes to witness a rout.

Hint: Send a PM to FCEGM … or Scott Hahn, or Karl K.

Hint: All of them would easily recognize the rout that you dont see. Send them your own PM and ask them their assessment of things…if you truly value their opinion and your not afraid of the truth.