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moondweller
Guest
The point I was making was that Gentiles were never under “a tutor” (the Mosaic Law - even the Decalogue).
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Mannyfit75
Guest
You are right but James gave Gentiles that they should avoid eating meat offers to pagan gods in Act according tot he Council of Jerusalem.
Paul in his littles exorts Christians to practice their faith and not commit any sin by breaking commandments.
They are under the New Law, or Covenant established by Jesus Christ. God demands that we love him and be obedient to His Commandments. Commandments are not to be ignored. To do so would be preaching a false Gospel.
P
Pax
Guest
I have mentioned the gentiles and you should have noticed that in my previous posts. There is absolutely no reason for you to remind me that they were not under a tutor as if I didn’t know this.
You also need to stop misplacing the word “alone” and ignoring the word “works” when it comes to how scripture uses the terms.
M
mikeledes
Guest
And how does he know what these sins are in order to avoid them?
What does walking by faith on a daily basis means in practical terms?
Why are there different degrees of experiential sanctification?
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Moondweller, you believe that believers can receive or lose rewards. What must a believer do to obtain a reward and what must he do not to lose it?
God Bless,
Michael
God Bless,
Michael
M
moondweller
Guest
Do you think the 1st Cen. Roman believer was scratching his head, dumbfounded and confused, when Paul wrote to them:Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died (with Christ) to sin still live in it?"And remember, the gospel went first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. Although the Gentiles have been self-imposing the Law for centuries. Of course there are the Scriptures, conscience and the work of the Holy Spirit.
Believing, daily, what God has revealed concerning Christ, forgiveness of sins, grace, salvation and the blessed hope (not the unblessed “hope so”).
Human will.
M
moondweller
Guest
He doesn’t lose rewards, per se, as if he once had them. The quality of his works will be evaluated at the future, judgment seat of Christ; those which are proved (revealed) valuable (“gold, silver, precious stones”) remain, and he receives a reward. Those which are revealed as not (wood, hay, straw) are (figuratively) burned up. No reward. You can read it for yourself in 1 Cor. 3. It doesn’t go into elaborate detail.
RC’s erroneously interpret this as Purgatory. But it’s not sins that are being revealed and purged in these passages. But it is “each man’s work” that the fire (judgment) will test for quality.
M
mikeledes
Guest
So through the Scriptures, conscience and work of the Holy Spirit, the believers learn about what is right behavior and what is sinful behavior and use this knowledge as guide for daily living? Where in the Scriptures do we learn about what is sinful behavior?
So “experiential” sanctification is accomplished through faith alone, or does our behavior have a role to play, even if that behavior does not have an impact on our eternal destiny?
How does the human will affect “experiential” sanctification, since all true Christians are believers?
God bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
M
mikeledes
Guest
I think the words of Saint Augustine - who was a big influence on both Martin Luther and John Calvin - best explains the relationship between faith and works, grace and merit, and works and eternal life:
**Unintelligent persons, however, with regard to the apostle’s statement: “We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law,” [Romans 3:28] have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works. Impossible is it that such a character should be deemed “a vessel of election” by the apostle, who, after declaring that “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision,” [Galatians 5:6] adds at once, “but faith which worketh by love.” It is such faith which severs God’s faithful from unclean demons,-for even these “believe and tremble,” [James 2:19] as the Apostle James says; but they do not do well. Therefore they possess not the faith by which the just man lives,-the faith which works by love in such wise, that God recompenses it according to its works with eternal life. But inasmuch as we have even our good works from God, from whom likewise comes our faith and our love, therefore the self same great teacher of the Gentiles [apostle Paul] has designated “eternal life” itself as His gracious “gift.” [Romans 6:23]
And hence there arises no small question, which must be solved by the Lord’s gift. If eternal life is rendered to good works, as the Scripture most openly declares: “Then He shall reward every man according to his works:” [Matthew 16:27] how can eternal life be a matter of grace, seeing that grace is not rendered to works, but is given gratuitously, as the apostle himself tells us: “To him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt;” [Romans 4:4] and again: “There is a remnant saved according to the election of grace;” with these words immediately subjoined: “And if of grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace”? [Romans 11:5, 6] How, then, is eternal life by grace, when it is received from works? Does the apostle perchance not say that eternal life is a grace? Nay, he has so called it, with a clearness which none can possibly gainsay. It requires no acute intellect, but only an attentive reader, to discover this. For after saying, “The wages of sin is death,” he at once added, “The grace of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” [Romans 6:23]
This question, then, seems to me to be by no means capable of solution, unless we understand that even those good works of ours, which are recompensed with eternal life, belong to the grace of God, because of what is said by the Lord Jesus: “Without me ye can do nothing.” [John 15:5] And the apostle himself, after saying, “By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast;” [Ephesians 2:8, 9] saw, of course, the possibility that men would think from this statement that good works are not necessary to those who believe, but that faith alone suffices for them; and again, the possibility of men’s boasting of their good works, as if they were of themselves capable of performing them. To meet, therefore, these opinions on both sides, he immediately added, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” [Ephesians 2:10] What is the purport of his saying, “Not of works, lest any man should boast,” while commending the grace of God? And then why does he afterwards, when giving a reason for using such words, say, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works”? Why, therefore, does it run, “Not of works, lest any man should boast”? Now, hear and understand. “Not of works” is spoken of the works which you suppose have their origin in yourself alone; but you have to think of works for which God has moulded (that is, has formed and created) you. For of these he says, “We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” Now he does not here speak of that creation which made us human beings, but of that in reference to which one said who was already in fullmanhood, “Create in me a clean heart, O God;” [Psalms 51:10] concerning which also the apostle says, “Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God.” [2 Corinthians 5:17, 18] We are framed, therefore, that is, formed and created, “in the good works which” we have not ourselves prepared, but “God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” It follows, then, dearly beloved, beyond all doubt, that as your good life is nothing else than God’s grace, so also the eternal life which is the recompense of a good life is the grace of God; moreover it is given gratuitously, even as that is given gratuitously to which it is given. But that to which it is given is solely and simply grace; this therefore is also that which is given to it, because it is its reward;-grace is for grace, as if remuneration for righteousness; in order that it may be true, because it is true, that God “shall reward every man according to his works.” [Matthew 16:27, Psalms 62:12, Revelation 22:12]
Perhaps you ask whether we ever read in the Sacred Scriptures of “grace for grace.” Well you possess the Gospel according to John, which is perfectly clear in its very great light. Here John the Baptist says of Christ: “Of His fullness have we all received, even grace for grace.” [John 1:16] So that out of His fullness we have received, according to our humble measure, our particles of ability as it were for leading good lives-”according as God hath dealt to every man his measure of faith;” [Romans 12:3] because “every man hath his proper gift of God; one after this manner, and another after that.” [1 Corinthians 7:7] And this is grace. But, over and above this, we shall also receive “grace for grace,” when we shall have awarded to us eternal life, of which the apostle said: “The grace of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord,” [Romans 6:23] having just said that “the wages of sin is death.” Deservedly did he call it “wages,” because everlasting death is awarded as its proper due to diabolical service. Now, when it was in his power to say, and rightly to say: “But the wages of righteousness is eternal life,” he yet preferred to say: “The grace of God is eternal life;” in order that we may hence understand that God does not, for any merits of our own, but from His own divine compassion, prolong our existence to everlasting life. Even as the Psalmist says to his soul, “Who crowneth thee with mercy and compassion.” [Psalms 103:4] Well, now, is not a crown given as the reward of good deeds? It is, however, only because He works good works in good men, of whom it is said, “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure,” [Philippians 2:13] that the Psalm has it, as just now quoted: “He crowneth thee with mercy and compassion,” since it is through His mercy that we perform the good deeds to which the crown is awarded. It is not, however, to be for a moment supposed, because he said, “It is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of his own good pleasure,” that free will is taken away. If this, indeed, had been his meaning, he would not have said just before, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” [Philippians 2:12] For when the command is given “to work,” their free will is addressed; and when it is added, “with fear and trembling,” they are warned against boasting of their good deeds as if they were their own, by attributing to themselves the performance of anything good. It is pretty much as if the apostle had this question put to him: “Why did you use the phrase, ‘with fear and trembling’?” And as if he answered the inquiry of his examiners by telling them, “For it is God which worketh in you.” Because if you fear and tremble, you do not boast of your good works-as if they were your own, since it is God who works within you.**
vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/augustine-on-faith-works-grace-and-eternal-life/
God bless,
Michael
**Unintelligent persons, however, with regard to the apostle’s statement: “We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law,” [Romans 3:28] have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works. Impossible is it that such a character should be deemed “a vessel of election” by the apostle, who, after declaring that “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision,” [Galatians 5:6] adds at once, “but faith which worketh by love.” It is such faith which severs God’s faithful from unclean demons,-for even these “believe and tremble,” [James 2:19] as the Apostle James says; but they do not do well. Therefore they possess not the faith by which the just man lives,-the faith which works by love in such wise, that God recompenses it according to its works with eternal life. But inasmuch as we have even our good works from God, from whom likewise comes our faith and our love, therefore the self same great teacher of the Gentiles [apostle Paul] has designated “eternal life” itself as His gracious “gift.” [Romans 6:23]
And hence there arises no small question, which must be solved by the Lord’s gift. If eternal life is rendered to good works, as the Scripture most openly declares: “Then He shall reward every man according to his works:” [Matthew 16:27] how can eternal life be a matter of grace, seeing that grace is not rendered to works, but is given gratuitously, as the apostle himself tells us: “To him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt;” [Romans 4:4] and again: “There is a remnant saved according to the election of grace;” with these words immediately subjoined: “And if of grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace”? [Romans 11:5, 6] How, then, is eternal life by grace, when it is received from works? Does the apostle perchance not say that eternal life is a grace? Nay, he has so called it, with a clearness which none can possibly gainsay. It requires no acute intellect, but only an attentive reader, to discover this. For after saying, “The wages of sin is death,” he at once added, “The grace of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” [Romans 6:23]
This question, then, seems to me to be by no means capable of solution, unless we understand that even those good works of ours, which are recompensed with eternal life, belong to the grace of God, because of what is said by the Lord Jesus: “Without me ye can do nothing.” [John 15:5] And the apostle himself, after saying, “By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast;” [Ephesians 2:8, 9] saw, of course, the possibility that men would think from this statement that good works are not necessary to those who believe, but that faith alone suffices for them; and again, the possibility of men’s boasting of their good works, as if they were of themselves capable of performing them. To meet, therefore, these opinions on both sides, he immediately added, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” [Ephesians 2:10] What is the purport of his saying, “Not of works, lest any man should boast,” while commending the grace of God? And then why does he afterwards, when giving a reason for using such words, say, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works”? Why, therefore, does it run, “Not of works, lest any man should boast”? Now, hear and understand. “Not of works” is spoken of the works which you suppose have their origin in yourself alone; but you have to think of works for which God has moulded (that is, has formed and created) you. For of these he says, “We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.” Now he does not here speak of that creation which made us human beings, but of that in reference to which one said who was already in fullmanhood, “Create in me a clean heart, O God;” [Psalms 51:10] concerning which also the apostle says, “Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God.” [2 Corinthians 5:17, 18] We are framed, therefore, that is, formed and created, “in the good works which” we have not ourselves prepared, but “God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” It follows, then, dearly beloved, beyond all doubt, that as your good life is nothing else than God’s grace, so also the eternal life which is the recompense of a good life is the grace of God; moreover it is given gratuitously, even as that is given gratuitously to which it is given. But that to which it is given is solely and simply grace; this therefore is also that which is given to it, because it is its reward;-grace is for grace, as if remuneration for righteousness; in order that it may be true, because it is true, that God “shall reward every man according to his works.” [Matthew 16:27, Psalms 62:12, Revelation 22:12]
Perhaps you ask whether we ever read in the Sacred Scriptures of “grace for grace.” Well you possess the Gospel according to John, which is perfectly clear in its very great light. Here John the Baptist says of Christ: “Of His fullness have we all received, even grace for grace.” [John 1:16] So that out of His fullness we have received, according to our humble measure, our particles of ability as it were for leading good lives-”according as God hath dealt to every man his measure of faith;” [Romans 12:3] because “every man hath his proper gift of God; one after this manner, and another after that.” [1 Corinthians 7:7] And this is grace. But, over and above this, we shall also receive “grace for grace,” when we shall have awarded to us eternal life, of which the apostle said: “The grace of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord,” [Romans 6:23] having just said that “the wages of sin is death.” Deservedly did he call it “wages,” because everlasting death is awarded as its proper due to diabolical service. Now, when it was in his power to say, and rightly to say: “But the wages of righteousness is eternal life,” he yet preferred to say: “The grace of God is eternal life;” in order that we may hence understand that God does not, for any merits of our own, but from His own divine compassion, prolong our existence to everlasting life. Even as the Psalmist says to his soul, “Who crowneth thee with mercy and compassion.” [Psalms 103:4] Well, now, is not a crown given as the reward of good deeds? It is, however, only because He works good works in good men, of whom it is said, “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure,” [Philippians 2:13] that the Psalm has it, as just now quoted: “He crowneth thee with mercy and compassion,” since it is through His mercy that we perform the good deeds to which the crown is awarded. It is not, however, to be for a moment supposed, because he said, “It is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of his own good pleasure,” that free will is taken away. If this, indeed, had been his meaning, he would not have said just before, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” [Philippians 2:12] For when the command is given “to work,” their free will is addressed; and when it is added, “with fear and trembling,” they are warned against boasting of their good deeds as if they were their own, by attributing to themselves the performance of anything good. It is pretty much as if the apostle had this question put to him: “Why did you use the phrase, ‘with fear and trembling’?” And as if he answered the inquiry of his examiners by telling them, “For it is God which worketh in you.” Because if you fear and tremble, you do not boast of your good works-as if they were your own, since it is God who works within you.**
vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/augustine-on-faith-works-grace-and-eternal-life/
God bless,
Michael
B
BRB
Guest
B
BRB
Guest
Everyone is talking over, around, and thru the woods regarding Law … and not addressing the key distinction MD makes above.
Please listen closely to the point MD draws from Paul’s letters on this topic. Do Catholics agree or disagree with MD’s premise … as to what you Catholics really believe ?
MD has clearly defined what He believes Paul teaches on Law. Catholics … come to the table and debate his premise straight up.
No more dodgeball tactics.
B
BRB
Guest
Not true.If you believe that salvation can be lost through apostasy, then you do not believe in OSAS.
God Bless,
Michael
Christ never loses what he claims for the Father … per John’s testimony of words of Christ.
If we chose to be apostates … we willingly forfeit our gift of salvation – deny Christ and his gift. Since his gift no longer has any worth / value to us … we in essense ask for a divorce from God’s family. Since salvation no longer has any ‘value’ to us … we don’t consider it a Loss. An apostate is glad to be rid of Christ.
Can one lose something they don’t value as worth or gain ? If we lose something of value … don’t we naturally seek to refind it ?
An apostate returns the gift of God’s love … and rejects the Giver.
Yes, later at the judgement it will be seen as a loss.
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mikeledes
Guest
Dodge ball tactics? Please do not disrespect the contributions Catholics have made in this thread. Catholics here and in the first thread have clearly explained what “the Law” means. If you want to see real dodge ball tactics, try posting Galatians 6:7-10, buy some popcorn, and enjoy the show.
God Bless,
Michael
T
Thing
Guest
You don’t believe in mortal sin?
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mikeledes
Guest
And what you just said flatly contradicts the doctrine of OSAS. Now there are different flavors of OSAS - ranging from the Carnal Christian concept to Calvinism’s perseverance of the saints. All of them teach that salvation cannot be forfeited once you have received it. The most antinomian OSAS adherants will even claim that even if a person were to lose their faith and become an atheist, he or she will still be saved.
God Bless,
Michael
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BRB
Guest
Clearly they are wrong … no basis in fact for denying that apostasy can’t be our choice.
However, if anyone believes the Trinity gives up on us and rejects us because of our inability to keep the law provided we confess with contrition of heart], ---- that belief would not square with what the Gospels teach.
God is absolutely faithful to his covenants, even when we aren’t. We are secured to the Father by Christ … not ourselves [or ability to fully keep the law]. If we have truly made a covenant with the Lord, we are secure for all eternity— short of committing the ultimate, unforgiveable sin [apostasy rejection/denial of H.S.]
How many reborn into H.S. would ever later chose apostasy as free will option ? That is the big unknown, it would seem.
B
BRB
Guest
Right on principle, right on scripture interpretation … again MD scores a Grandslam H.R. … for Paul’s Team
Sandusky, where are you ? Waiting in the bullpen perhaps ?
M
mikeledes
Guest
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