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BRB
Guest
Our sex no longer applies … per Paul.
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BRB
Guest
IF, if only IF … Judas had done as Peter ------
Would not that of included confessing Christ as his Lord, early on in the 3 yr period as Peter did ? His love was for worldly riches and survival … not the wisdom & riches Christ offered.
One cannot be a prodigal son … when never truly holding faith & devotion to Christ, from the outset.
Pax … its OK to change your ‘swing’ on this one. Its a softball … right over the plate. No curve or slider intended.
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BRB
Guest
I’m gonna toss a changeup pitch … to get off Judas, and back on topic of Commandments.
Jeremiah 31:31-35
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, NOT LIKE the covenant I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord. But, this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will PUT MY LAW WITHIN THEM, and I will WRITE IT UPON THEIR HEARTS; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ’ Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I WILL FORGIVE THEIR INIQUITY, and I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SIN NO MORE.”
Do we believe this prophesy has been fullfilled ? If so … we have God’s ‘New Testament Covenental Promise’ of forgiveness of sin … apart from the Mosaic Law.
Yesterday’s Catholic Church scripture reading … for us to ‘consume’ and ‘rest assured’ therein.
Jeremiah 31:31-35
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, NOT LIKE the covenant I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord. But, this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will PUT MY LAW WITHIN THEM, and I will WRITE IT UPON THEIR HEARTS; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ’ Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I WILL FORGIVE THEIR INIQUITY, and I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SIN NO MORE.”
Do we believe this prophesy has been fullfilled ? If so … we have God’s ‘New Testament Covenental Promise’ of forgiveness of sin … apart from the Mosaic Law.
Yesterday’s Catholic Church scripture reading … for us to ‘consume’ and ‘rest assured’ therein.
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BRB
Guest
I maintain that the 10 Commandments remain a list of those things MOST displeasing to the Lord. Do you agree or disagree?
How do we know that which is not pleasing to the Lord?
Well … it was in OT times. In NT times we have a NEW COVENANT with our Lord. God desires to FORGIVE our legal failings … and REMEMBER OUR SINS NO MORE.
How is it possible ? How can God change the rules of ballgame on us ? Actually he does it in the only Fair Way possible. He sends in His ACE Reliever … to help us with hitting/batting practice. If we listen to the TEAM MANAGER …and follow directions … all is assured.
CHRIST fullfills ALL our ‘legal troubles’ for us before the Father [who still demands obedience and holiness from us]. If we could of done it of our own accord [works] … the Cross would not be needed to ‘bridge the sin gap’ between Holy Father and unholy progeny.
We know because of prophesy of Jeremiah … “the words/laws of God are now written on everyones hearts”. H.S. convicts all of their sins.
IF only, IF only … we let Christ carry our ‘legal burden of sin’. Only in Christ … is the Father able to view us as Holy.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
This is an utter and complete violation of EVERYTHING we know about God.
The sum total of all we know about God’s Nature and Attributes can be captured in this taxonomy:
**The Nature and Attributes of God
I. As Known Through Natural Reason
A. Infinity of God
B. Unity or Unicity of God
C. Simplicity of God
D. Divine Personality
II. As Known Through Faith
A. Eternity
B. Immensity and Ubiquity, or Omnipresence
C. Immutability
D. The Divine Attributes
- Divine Knowledge
- The Divine Will
- Intellect and Will (Providence, Predestination, and Reprobation) **
In God “there is no change, nor shadow of alteration” (James 1:17); “They * shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment. And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: **but thou art the selfsame and thy years shall not fail” **(Hebrews 1:10-12, Psalm 101:26-28. Cf. Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8). These are some of the Scriptural texts which clearly teach Divine immutability or unchangeableness, and this attribute is likewise emphasized in church teaching [as by the Council of Nicaea against the Arians, who attributed mutability to the Logos (Denzinger, 54-old No. 18), and by the Vatican Council in its famous definition. ]
More here: The Nature and Attributes of God
Law was fulfilled - not changed. In essence there is actually a higher standard now. Even thoughts of adultery, previously not in force under the letter of the law are now in force. We know in our hearts what is right and wrong. The difference is we can be forgiven if we recognize our mistakes,ask for pardon, seek to pay reasonable restitution (pennance) and repentant.
Reexamine your premise and try again.
James*
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BRB
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Law fulfilled yes … in Christ.
Higher standard now … yes, the Beatitudes. So if man couldn’t keep laws then, how will he ever manage now ? … only in Christ.
You say “difference is we can be forgiven by 'SEEKING TO PAY REASONABLE RESTITUTION” … what a untenable, legalistic, humanistic proposal !!
How are you gonna PAY off your sin debts ? With your own blood, sweat, and tears ?
It’s all at the Cross … As Christ said, “IT is Finished”.
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BRB
Guest
Absolutely … we must. That is our new Law of Love standard … that we must uphold, as disciples of Christ.
Can I [you] do it w/o help of H.S. ? Not a chance. We will fail most miserably if we try to w/o genuine Rebirth via H.S. That’s why Christ INSISTED we must be Reborn of H.S. … if we ever desire to see the Kingdom.
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Philthy
Guest
ISTM that you are confusing HOW we uphold the “new law of love” with WHAT that new law entails. It is encouraging that you recognize that there is a “new Law” but you just might get traded from MD’s team with such talk. I maintain that Christ did not do away with any of the OT Commandments - if anything they are more comprehensive. Adultery is no longer merely engaging in a relationship - it is “looking at a woman lustfully”. The big difference is how we are able to imitate Christ through our conduct - by the power of the HS.
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ryanoneil
Guest
Absolutely!
Yes the Mosaic Law is concluded, because there is no longer Jew nor Gentile. The New Covenant is apart from the Mosaic Law, but the moral aspect of the Law was retained and refined by Christ. Which is why he says:
Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Mat 19:16-17)
The Old Covenant governed the affairs of the kingdom of Israel. The Mosiac Law was designed to establish and maintain Israel as a nation-state in the land of Canaan. It was an outward standard of righeousness that defined God’s people as a nation. (seperated them from the sins of the Gentiles)
Jer 31:31-34 would be the day when God would write his Law on their hearts.
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. (Ezek 36:25-27)
Christ does this with the New Covenant when he perfects the moral laws of the Old Covenant. (not abolish them)
The New Covenant is wider than the one nation of Israel and includes an international kingdom. All nations can share in God’s blessing and become his covenant people. Go back to Mat 5 and Gal 6:2 and you will see the New Covenant Law of Christ. In order to obey the new law we need the power of the Holy Spirit.
**For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. (Rom 8:2-4) **
No matter how you slice it the moral precepts of the Ten Commandments must be followed. In fact, we are held to a higher standard. I hate to repeat myself but look and Mat 5.
I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:20)
So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Mat 5:48)
Jesus says we must have moral righteousness higher than the Old Covenant by being mercifull. Thank God the New Covenant is a system of grace and we have been given the power of the Holy Spirit to obey the law of Christ and grow in holiness.
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BRB
Guest
I’m trying to stay neutral … so I can keep a fair score.
Look back in my posts … I’ve always acknowledged the Beatitudes / Law of Love as our new standard of ethics.
MD and Sandman do too … we are only arguing the OT Mosaic Code of Laws is now Superceded/Perfected by Love Law in Christ. Christ told us ALL laws could be simplified into the Big Two. ‘Love Lord with all heart, soul, mind & love neighbor as self’.
Christ simplifies our lives … never complicates with burdensome laws that can’t be kept w/o inspiration of H.S. Christ is our freedom, inspiration, and life.
“No one comes to the Father, except thru the Son”. This is Paul’s clarion cry … from the WORD !! Paul the ultimate Pharisee, legalist lawyer … was set free from the lawcode that had turned him into a MURDERER of Christians.
Look at the irony of it all. The most ‘self-righteous’ of all Jews … was transformed by H.S. into our most glorious apologist saint [except for our mother Mary … right ?].
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FCEGM
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Sure, I’m pretty sure BRB was referring to St. Paul.
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Sean_Boyle
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I hope so…Sure, I’m pretty sure BRB was referring to St. Paul.
Sorry for the confusion…
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BRB
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You took it out of context. I was describing life of Paul. Paul was the finest Jewish legalist of his day. Yet his obsession with keeping the law turned him into a monster … guilty of murder.
As Scott Hahn teaches … a subtext taken out of context is a pretext.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
You seem to be quite emotional today - did I strike a nerve or area that is a weakness in your partial truth faith?
You don’t recollect The Apostle Paul’s teaching?
Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.
You objected to the only thing you could - and you did it by purposely misinterpreting what you know I meant. My statement about paying restitution of course you know is in part implicit to forgivness is JESUS paying restitution for the ETERNAL debts owed to GOD. But you also know that when there is ANOTHER kind of restitution that related to our temporal debts to each other and the consequences of our FORGIVEN sins. You don’t like it but that does not change the truth. You know I mean that Catholics understand the deeper theology that we must do penance just like the original early church did in praying earnestly, having real tears and practising self denial (fasting, charitable acts, giving alms to the poor, etc.). Penance as you should know by now is INTEGRAL with repentance and in the general amending of our ways to defer from sin and to repent. This is cooperating with God’s grace. When we sin we discover our weakness and the areas we must improve in - and repent from.
You are of course UTTERLY WRONG that Jesus paid all our temporal debts on the cross. No, Jesus did not do it ALL on the cross. That mocks God’s Justice. Jesus told us to follow Him and carry our own crosses. Christians are God’s children we are not shoeless beggars we share in the pain and the glory. Jesus only made it possible for us to be forgiven of our sins through baptism and through sacramental confession (or through God’s Mercy reached through a contrite confession). Baptism permits us to “catch up” and pay ALL our eternal and temporal debts. But that is only one time. God will not be mocked. Our God is a Holy God and a Just God. We can be forgiven our eternal debts but God insists we carry our own cross and pay our temporal debts and to help others who can’t carry their own crosses. Jesus wants those in His Church to contribute as stakeholders in His Church by gaining merits that add to the deposit of the treasury of The Church. These merits may be used to offset our temporal debts and to help those in purgatory as well as those outside the Church that we pray for. You should thank God as a non-Catholic that our saints, martyrs and religious have earned through tremendous suffering and self denial the extraordinary merits that we can use to petition God to specifically help people like you come to the truth. You are a marked man by the way. Incoming…
James
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BRB
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You are of course UTTERLY WRONG that Jesus paid all our temporal debts on the cross. No, Jesus did not do it ALL on the cross. That mocks God’s Justice. We can be forgiven our eternal debts but God insists we carry our own cross and pay our temporal debts and to help others who can’t carry their own crosses.
Jesus wants those in His Church to contribute as stakeholders in His Church by gaining merits that add to the deposit of the treasury of The Church. These merits may be used to offset our temporal debts and to help those in purgatory as well as those outside the Church that we pray for.
You are a marked man by the way. Incoming…
I think Paul would desire to explain himself more fully …on his concept of TEAMWORK with Christ.
Yes, we indeed must bear the Cross for Christ … as we spread his Law of Love message. Teamwork is paramount. Its all about family and the Church at work … with Christ at its head. We are one with Christ. He still does all the work — thru us, his disciples.
All Christians bear the marks of Christ [on our soul] … thanks for reminding us of this fact.
Lets share High 5’s … its time to break bread in the Spirit of Paul, not make war.
FL James … can you get emotional too my brother ? Give me an AMEN, or a sincere Peace Be With You
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Are you a sister? I get that feeling.I think Paul would desire to explain himself more fully …on his concept of TEAMWORK with Christ.
Yes, we indeed must bear the Cross for Christ … as we spread his Law of Love message. Teamwork is paramount. Its all about family and the Church at work … with Christ at its head. We are one with Christ. He still does all the work — thru us, his disciples.
All Christians bear the marks of Christ [on our soul] … thanks for reminding us of this fact.
Lets share High 5’s … its time to break bread in the Spirit of Paul, not make war.
FL James … can you get emotional too my brother ? Give me an AMEN, or a sincere Peace Be With You
You are contradicting yourself though in agreeing that we all need to carry our cross then saying Christ does it all. Christ wants us to feel like we are partners this. We can never pull the load He has but we can certainly permit Him to work through our labors of love as His instruments. In that metaphor we should try to yoke ourselves to Christ’s cross and pull what we can. He will let us take what we can contribute - its all part of sharing the work, sharing the suffering and sharing in the glory. The person that participates in his own salvation by cooperating with God’s grace feels like he is a part of “the team”.
Hugs and Blessings,
James
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BRB
Guest
You and Philthy both … got that same feeling
Remember … I’m the one who believes the H.S. expresses a ‘mothering’ function to us. That’s why Mary was especially chosen to serve her special role in the Church, her interventions on our behalf … to her Son & her God.
Listen to your mother … She will set you straight, come confession time !
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Pax
Guest
I have already demonstrated that Judas, like the rest of the twelve, believed that Jesus was the son of God and that he worshiped Jesus while in the boat.
Judas was a prodigal son. He was a member of the household. The only thing he did differently was that he did not return with a godly grief that leads to repentance unto life.
If Peter had not returned in a godly grief of repentance he would be no better off than Judas. Surely, you would not be making the same mistaken assumptions in his case had he not returned would you?
You have not demonstrated your assertion about Judas “never truly holding faith & devotion to Christ, from the outset.” That is an assumption on your part with no foundation in scripture.
In my next post I will give further exploration into Judas. Hopefully, you will find it to be helpful.
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