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Pax
Guest
:tiphat:
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Pax
Guest
The scriptures under scrutiny are, indeed, related to one’s position. Your comment to the contrary is simply an assertion without foundation. Let’s see what scripture has to say in regards to “abide in me” or “abide in Christ” as “positional”[to use your terminology].
John 6:56
He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.[obviously positional]
John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
This quote from John 15:4 says “Abide in me, and I in you.” These two go together and this is clearly “positional” by your use of the word. Likewise, only those that are positionally in Christ have the possibility of bearing fruit. Those that do not bear fruit are positionally removed and burned. This sets the stage for the rest of the passage that you are disputing.
Then there are these passages using “abide”, and they are all positional.
1 John 2:-6
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
1John 2:10
He who loves his brother abides in the light, and in it there is no cause for stumbling.
1 John 2:24-25
Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.
1 John 2:28-29
And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that every one who does right is born of him.
1 John 3:14-15
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
I found other passages using abide but didn’t list them because the above should be sufficient. All of the passages I came across using this terminology are in the context of what you call “positional.”
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Pax
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Excellent explanation and analysis of Hebrews 6.
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moondweller
Guest
Yes. But Jesus in this context is not instructing the believer to abide in Him. This is not volitional. Your problem with interpreting Scripture, Pax, is you often fail to consider the context.
This is volitional.
One does not bear fruit in this life simply because he is “in Christ.” He must volitionally and consciously depend upon Christ in his service as the condition of fruitfulness. As Paul said, “I can do all things through Him who strengthens me” (Phil. 4:13).
The believer’s new and eternal position in the resurrected Christ was accomplished by God Himself upon belief in Him. It has nothing to do with fruit bearing.
You are doctrinally confused.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Nothing…however, it helps a lot when you look at the previous discussion thread on this topic from three whole years ago.
There were quite a few n-Cs/a-Cs who tried to use this to make their cases, but it just doesn’t wash. Read the other thread.
Still, just for example.
(cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11).
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Philthy
Guest
No - I dont believe I claimed that I could, though. You had requested it be “recorded” in SCRIPTURE, right?. James is Scripture and James records that Abraham was “justified when he offered Isaac up on the altar”. Do you deny that James records it, or do you deny that James is scripture? You are being very stubborn, again, and to the detriment of all the good that you have to offer.
Can you show me where it’s recorded* in Gen 22* that “credit” of righteousness granted Abraham was incapable of being added to at a later point in time? Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where it says that?
Matt: 7-2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. "
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Pax
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It is the context that was used to prove the point. Yours is merely an opinion without foundational support. Moreover, it has plenty to do with bearing fruit as these verses and others make clear.
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moondweller
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Always_For_Him
Guest
The only way that could be is if the branch fall off, didn’t wither and the fire wasn’t really fire, so it didn’t get burned up in the fire. As I write this, I know it sound rediculous, but, I just can’t fathom that this Scripture is so misinterpreted out of context. Remain IN Christ, IN Christ, means not away from Christ, not in a state of sin by actions. Because we ALL do know that the Bible does tell us that our actions make a difference between going to heaven and going to hell. If we have free will to choose to do good, then we have free will to choose to bad. We have to chosse very carefully. Believing in Jesus as Lord and our Savior is paramount, but we also have to Do something - LOVE (love means action) - and, we also have to choose our actions wisely. It isn’t just given to us, we have to work for it while staying in grace.
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Always_For_Him
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I think about it this way, “Abide in Me” has a different meaning than “Believe in Me” Abide means to stay in grace with Me, out of sin, not away from Me. Believe in Me, means belief in Jesus as Lord, the Only Son of God, the One that died for our sins, TRUST in Him, etc…The word “meno” means to stay or continue, as Jesus clearly means when he says the branch must stay in the vine in order to bear fruit:
So when Christ says “abide in me”, what does He mean? He means to stay in Him, to stay in Christ. If we do not stay in him, we cannot be saved, hence the fate of the branches that do not abide in Him. Just as a branch must stay in the vine, we must stay in Christ.
Entirely two different meanings. So, you could say, “I abide in you because I believe in you”, or " I abide in you through your grace by having faith because I believe in you."
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Always_For_Him
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I should have added above that I don’t see abiding in Christ as something that has a lot of wiggle room. You either “choose” to live by God’s will, or you choose to live by your own will. The “will” that you choose will put you in THE position you abide in whether it is abiding in Christ or abiding away from Christ. Abiding In Christ means living in His grace, through faith and actions (that are necessary to attain grace). Abiding away from Christ means living out of grace, still having faith, but by actions that have separated us from His grace. We cannot achieve heaven if we die while we are not in grace with Jesus. Believing in Him, having Faith is only part of it. Jesus’ work has all been done, ours hasn’t. Grace is achieved through faith doing all that we are supposed to do and not doing what we are not supposed to do.
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steve_b
Guest
Having not read all the posts, here or on the previous thread, I’m sure it was probably already mentioned that Jesus said the 10 commandments were to be followed. He mentions 6 of them here.
Mt 19:
**The Rich Young Man **
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. “What do I still lack?” 21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
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BRB
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From who’s perspective ? Your’s or God’s.
First off, we know we never can fully know the state of another’s soul. Thus, we are not to judge another … with regards to their salvation.
So, if I say to you … I’m assured of my salvation. Can you with complete confidence and with infallible wisdom judge my situation ?
The best you can do … is to speak for yourself. Your ‘personal experience of reality’ is all you can confidently know & testify to.
You can quote us scriptures … but, that’s hearsay evidence for you. Can Paul’s life experience and word testimony thereof be yours ?
Yes, indeed it can …but, not until you internalize his message, not until your soul is transformed by that message, not until that message is ‘consumed’ and becomes ‘recreated’ within your mind, body, & soul. Not until it becomes your personal testimony and daily reality.
If MD told you … ‘I’ve had a private revelation from my Lord, and been assurred I’m among his elect’ … would you not ‘respect’ his belief on the matter ? What’s the point in trying to talk another out of a ‘harmless’ belief ?
Do you think the Pope has any ‘doubts’ about his calling and life mission ? Now, he’s more humble than the laity, and might not wish to speak of his private revelations … out of concern it might create angst in another not sharing his salvation convictions.
Even though the Church does not ‘stress’ salvation assurance … I don’t think you will find them calling someone who believes it heretical, and demanding a recant.
The CCC does acknowledge that some can enjoy more assurance than another. Basically, as long as one is fully confessed, filled with God’s spiritual presence, and remains a faithful disciple … there is no reason to lack assurace. Some can maintain such purity and holiness for long periods, years, even lifetimes.
Maybe the Protestants know something in this regard you don’t
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Philthy
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He actually records that Abraham was (a) justified by offering Isaac and that he was justified (b) at the time of offering up Isaac. Here, read it again: Abraham was “**justified (a)by works (b) when he offered his son Isaac” **
He does not “only cite Gen 15” . In fact, he specifically describes Gen 22 as fulfilling the Scripture crediting his belief being credited as righteousness. In short, he equates “believing God” and “offering Isaac on the altar” both resulting in justification, he does not disassociate them as you attempt to.
I’ll repeat: either you believe that Scripture means something other than what is says - Abraham was justified BY WORKS WHEN he offered Isaac - or you have no ground to stand on.
Notice how Sandusky isnt backing you up on this ludicrous claim of yours? It is because the only hope is to claim that the justification in James means something different than the justification in Genesis. That argument, while untenable ultimately, at least offers the protagonist an opportunity to score some points. Your argument that “it isnt recorded in Scripture” is ridiculous - it is recorded word for word in James. Here it is again:
"Wasn’t Abraham justified by works when he offered Isaac upon the altar? Yes, he was. And the Scripture “his belief was reckoned as righteousness” was fulfilled: not only in Gen 15, but also in Gen 22. The problem for you is dealing with the reality that he as justified more than once. You’ve drawn that line in the sand and are attempting to cram James into it, and it won’t fit - just like it didnt fit for Luther. I think you are both stubbornly mistaken.
James only “quotes” Gen 15:6? When, exactly, did “quoting” become your new criteria? Does it matter that James simply paraphrased Gen 22? It doesnt matter at all. James clearly discusses Gen 22 when he uses the term “offered Isaac upon the altar” - there is no escaping that fact - at least not while Im around to point it out. You are simply attempting to change the useless “recorded in Scripture” rule you introduced in the first place into “quoted” from the OT. I repeat: its ridiculous.
Of course he “cites” an occasion - Abraham offering Isaac - he simply doesnt “quote” Gen 22 in doing so. Perhaps you would like to tell us WHY “Wasn’t Abraham justified by works when he offered Isaac on the altar?” doesnt meet your criteria?
Is it because he is using rhetoric and not making a statement?
Is it because he doesn’t “quote” Gen 22?
Is this not Scripture?
Does it not say that Abraham was justified by works?
Does it not say that Abraham was justified when he offered Isaac?
Does when not mean “at the time”?
Does it not say that offering Isaac on the altar fulfilled Abraham’s being credited righteousness?
There is nothing Paul says which alters what James says. That is merely the illusion created by your erroneous theology. We all know how much you love to interpret all of Scripture through your understanding of Paul, but it’s irrelevant. There is no need to run to Paul here.
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Philthy
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I do realize it. Do you realize that I introduced it based on your illogical “recorded in Scripture” rule? I didnt think so.
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moondweller
Guest
Church Militant:
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mikeledes
Guest
When the Bible uses the phrase “in Christ” - or variants like in Him, in the Son, or in Me - in reference to a person, it is always used in a soteriological sense. To say a person is “in Christ” is to say that person has genuine faith and has been justified. No false professor can ever be in Christ because no false professor has genuine faith.
God Bless,
Michael
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BRB
Guest
MD nailed one to outfield fence.
and slides safely into 3rd base.
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BRB
Guest
Top quote — Yes, also Christ tells us ‘we can do nothing [of eternal value], apart from him’
Bottom quote — initially, I’d agree strongly … since we have no works of value at our initial conversion. But, once we take on Christ’s nature, and put down our roots into His … Christ expects/mandates that we allow him to inspire/empower us to good works[fruits] befitting our ‘high calling in Christ’.
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BRB
Guest
If we FULLY claim to obey the 10 Commandments … what does that make us ?
Righteous, holy, good, just, faithful, acceptable to God, qualified to enjoy eternity, liars … or something else ?
Clearly it doesn’t make us good in God’s eyes. It appears the rich young ruler [Mark 10:17-22] did an admirable job of keeping the laws … yet Christ told him that God alone is Good.
For us to think we can ever be good enough to please God with our lawkeeping is hopeless. Christ told him he lacked only ONE essential thing. We must give up all human bonds to this world … and bond to Christ in faithful discipleship.
Only when we are bonded to the Goodness of Christ … are we viewed as Good by God the Father, and acceptible as holy & fit for his Kingdom.
Keeping the Commandments will never get us to eternal life. Keeping Christ and being OBEDIENT to his ‘Goodness’ will enable us to overcome and see the Kingdom.
Righteous, holy, good, just, faithful, acceptable to God, qualified to enjoy eternity, liars … or something else ?
Clearly it doesn’t make us good in God’s eyes. It appears the rich young ruler [Mark 10:17-22] did an admirable job of keeping the laws … yet Christ told him that God alone is Good.
For us to think we can ever be good enough to please God with our lawkeeping is hopeless. Christ told him he lacked only ONE essential thing. We must give up all human bonds to this world … and bond to Christ in faithful discipleship.
Only when we are bonded to the Goodness of Christ … are we viewed as Good by God the Father, and acceptible as holy & fit for his Kingdom.
Keeping the Commandments will never get us to eternal life. Keeping Christ and being OBEDIENT to his ‘Goodness’ will enable us to overcome and see the Kingdom.
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