The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[sandusky]

Thing:

Have you, Sandusky?

Yes I have; have you?

 

[mikeledes]

“Many are called, few are chosen” … teaching of Christ. How do we know at what point the chosing occurs. How does Augustine define it ?

Predestination occurs before the foundation of the world. However, he did not believe that all of the justified were predestined to glory. If you want to learn more about it, read his On the Gift of Perseverance.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Thing]

Yes I have; have you?

Have you, Sandusky? can you murder me and go to heaven? Catholics can. Is very strange. …Whats the point of a Christ if theres nobody to save from hell. Whats the point of a hell if theres no such thing as mortal sin? How do you free yourself from the mortal sin of murdering me if your Christ died 2000 years ago and 5000 miles away? How do you avoid hell if you don’t believe in mortal sin, or even that you could do wrong to murder me? According to some of the ideas here it doesnt matter if a person murders me it has no effect on them, maybe they’ll prove me wrong, who knows?

 

[Philthy]

Yes I have; have you?

I am part of the Commandment Crushers team! I have to jump in otherwise Sandy and I may never play for the same team! Im pretty sure I’ve broken all of them, depending upon how broadly one interprets things like, “Thou shalt not kill”. Days gone by, of course, but what is time before God?

 

[sandusky]

I am part of the Commandment Crushers team! I have to jump in otherwise Sandy and I may never play for the same team! Im pretty sure I’ve broken all of them, depending upon how broadly one interprets things like, “Thou shalt not kill”. Days gone by, of course, but what is time before God?

Thanks Phil, perhaps you’ll PM Thing, and explain to him the very difficult question I’ve posed to him.

 

[Thing]

Ohh, you mean this one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandusky
Yes I have; have you?

Have you, Sandusky? can you murder me and go to heaven? Catholics can. Is very strange. …Whats the point of a Christ if theres nobody to save from hell. Whats the point of a hell if theres no such thing as mortal sin? How do you free yourself from the mortal sin of murdering me if your Christ died 2000 years ago and 5000 miles away? How do you avoid hell if you don’t believe in mortal sin, or even that you could do wrong to murder me? According to some of the ideas here it doesnt matter if a person murders me it has no effect on them, maybe they’ll prove me wrong, who knows?

 

[Pax]

I was having a discussion with a confessional Lutheran member of this forum - and confessional Lutherans have a very high view of predestination (unconditional election, monergistic view of faith, etc.) - and he said something very enlightening:

It also contradicts what Augustine said, who Calvinists often cite when discussing the history of their doctrine:

In chapter 21 of The Gift of Perseverance, Augustine wrote:

Of two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance unto the end, and to the other it should not be given, God’s judgments are even more unsearchable. . . . had not both been called and followed him that called them? And had not both become, from wicked men, justified men and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration?

He also states in chapter 1:

Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. How, then, should he be said to have received or to have had perseverance who has not persevered? For if any one have continence, and fall away from that virtue and become incontinent,— or, in like manner, if he have righteousness, if patience, if even faith, and fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer; for he was continent, or he was righteous, or he was patient, or he was believing, as long as he was so; but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pax]

…
…

The law was good, but man took the ‘spirit’ out of the law … and followed only the ‘letter’ of the law. Man did not delight in the Creator, but in the creation. Thus the Law became a form of Idol worship for them. They made false worship of the rules, and ignored the Ruler.

Absolutely! Well, maybe not absolutely, but this is pretty much right on. I agree…this is a great insight.

It is also for that reason that God gave them more of what they wanted, with more and more rules that no one could possibly keep.

 

[Pax]

Pax …

Lets grant you that Abraham was justified 3 different times … for sake of further discussion.

Does that necessarily prove that multiple justifications are needed ? How do we know that our inital salvation justification in Christ is not sufficient to see heaven ? It certainly was for the thief on cross, and would be for someone with an initial ‘deathbed’ confession.

As far as the good thief is concerned, I can only say that I am in complete agreement. I cannot entertain making any comments on the meaning of justification on more than one occasion until the known players on this thread either concede the point or refute it by exploring all of the scriptural data that I provided in my challenge. Until then, I believe it to be a fruitless exercise in which both sides will claim that the other is driven purely by doctrine.

Abraham either was justified on more than one occasion or he was justified only once. This is a pretty big issue and needs to be resolved before we can move forward with what that may mean and the implications thereof.

 

[Pax]

Have you ever broken any of the commandments?

Have you, Sandusky?

Yes I have; have you?

I believe that this kind of question is an effort to frame everything legalistically, and that does not do “justice” to our position.[pun intended]

It is reasonable to say that most of us have at some point in time broken one or more of the ten commandments at least in some way since becoming Christian believers in Christ. This is not news. The Catholic view is one of repenting of our shortcomings as members of the household of God. If we simply went about our lives in a selfish fashion we would be mocking the grace and salvation given to us by God.

If we wish to leave the household and live a life of dissipation in the flesh we can do so. This will, however, make us slaves of sin and the wages of sin is death. We will no longer be living in the life of the Spirit. We will have, instead, profaned the blood of the covenant by which we were justified. We will have, intead, turned from our Lord and Savior to follow the prince of the world and the flesh. Such a choice would cause us to fall from grace and to lose our salvation. The book of Hebrews even tells us that in such a case “…if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.”[Hebrews 10:26-27]

If the sacrifice for our sins by Jesus no longer applies to us, then we are “dead in our trespasses” and we will be separated from what would otherwise be our inheritance.

 

[Philthy]

As far as the good thief is concerned, I can only say that I am in complete agreement. I cannot entertain making any comments on the meaning of justification on more than one occasion until the known players on this thread either concede the point or refute it by exploring all of the scriptural data that I provided in my challenge. Until then, I believe it to be a fruitless exercise in which both sides will claim that the other is driven purely by doctrine.

Abraham either was justified on more than one occasion or he was justified only once. This is a pretty big issue and needs to be resolved before we can move forward with what that may mean and the implications thereof.

Pax stands erect at the plate and defiantly whacks his cleats with his bat…He sends a quick spit of tobacco over his shoulder as he digs into the batters box and awaits the next pitch …all the while glaring uninterupted at the opposing pitcher(s). The air is heavy and the crowd is reduced to silence…

 

[Pax]

Pax stands erect at the plate and defiantly whacks his cleats with his bat…He sends a quick spit of tobacco over his shoulder as he digs into the batters box and awaits the next pitch …all the while glaring uninterupted at the opposing pitcher(s). The air is heavy and the crowd is reduced to silence…

Phil,

I want to apologize if I seem to be “glaring” at the opposition. I would prefer it to be more like looking at them with “passion” and “resolve.” Needless to say, self perceptions can be deceiving. I’ll have to work on that one.

 

[Philthy]

Thanks Phil, perhaps you’ll PM Thing, and explain to him the very difficult question I’ve posed to him.

Is that just a trace of sarcasm I detect in your tone? :ehh:

 

[Philthy]

Phil,

I want to apologize if I seem to be “glaring” at the opposition. I would prefer it to be more like looking at them with “passion” and “resolve.” Needless to say, self perceptions can be deceiving. I’ll have to work on that one.

Nonsense - I was just toying with the whole baseball team motif and I got caught up in a moment of fun. We’ve all interacted enough to recognize that although things can get heated and tempers flare briefly we all, ultimately, wish no one ill will and would rather be on the same team. No?
God is at work here in ways that we dont understand and perhaps if we remember to trust Him in this regard we will have more patience with one another. Amen?

It’s either all that or it’s all BRBs fault for introducing the whole baseball/competition thing to begin with…

 

[Pax]

Are you sure… ?

 

[Pax]

…

 

[moondweller]

Fulfilling the law of Christ entails avoiding those sins prohibited by the Decalogue. Please explain to us how you fulfill the Law of Christ without avoiding the sins of stealing, murder, adultery, etc?

Gal. 6:2 "Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ."The “new” commandment Christ gave His disciples was to love one another even as He loved them (Jn. 13:34). Though the “law of Christ” is not actually defined in Scripture, I believe the nearest to it is found in the second chapter of Philppians. It’s the rule of life which sent the Son in the Person of Jesus Christ to this sin soaked earth, the motive behind His earthly ministry, His substitutionary, sacrificial death for the salvation of men, and His present, heavenly ministry as the believer’s High Priest.Phil 2:3-11 "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; do not {merely} look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."This has nothing to do with the principle of law and merely keeping specific commandments.

Please explain how you can love God without keeping His commandments?

Under the Law men were commanded to love God with all their heart, soul and mind. Under grace it’s the other way around. It’s understanding God’s infinite love toward us in the Person and work of Jesus Christ that should in turn have a profound effect (in the Spirit) on one’s love toward God and fellow man, but especially those of the household of the faith:1 John 4:10-11 "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another."One’s love for God, I believe, is in direct proportion to the depth of one’s understanding of His love toward us in Christ Jesus. I believe one cannot truly love God until he has truly understood (grasped) God’s GRACE in Christ. Only then, as the believer grows in the depth of this grace, can his love of God increase.

Is Law/commandment keeping really the standard by which God measures one’s love of Him? Is this how all father/son relationships are to be defined?

 

[moondweller]

“It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.”

Yes, it is the “dog” that returns to his own vomit, and it is the “sow” who after being washed wallows in the mire again. IOW, they act according to their true nature. These were never saved, never regenerated by the Spirit, never born again in Christ Jesus. Their true nature came forth. I’ve seen it happen many times.

 

[moondweller]

“Faith alone” is no better! As I continue to say, “What do you do with it?”

Phil, it’s what God does with it that matters. And He’s revealed it. :extrahappy:

 

[Odell]

Is Law/commandment keeping really the standard by which God measures one’s love of Him? Is this how all father/son relationships are to be defined?

The law of Christ.

Does breaking the law of Christ or the commitments really measure up to loving your father?

Is that how you define a father son relationship?

I don’t know about you but my dad said as long as I was under his roof I had to abide by his rules. My dad must not have been a very good and loving dad.

You must have had it made let me guess no curfeiw

I hate I missed out on such a great fater son relationship.

Hilarious stuff keep it up