The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[BRB]

No, you don’t back me up on salvation assurance.

Men are “saved by grace through faith,” not their perseverance in “loyalty” or obedience. Salvation is “gifted” to the believer because of the obedience of Another - even death on a cross.

Ultimately, you believe salvation is based on the performance of man rather than the finished work of the Son of Man. Wrong gospel my friend. You’re believing in self. The message of salvation is to “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.”

MD … you’re a true zealot … with the conviction of Peter.
But, you have several disconnects that are causing angst issues for you.

You / I can’t read the scriptures infallibly. How many times have we been sure of a correct reading … only to be PROVEN by others [or life experience] that we were in err ? More than I care to admit … for sure.

We both accept as God’s canon, this book and message.
2 Peter 15-18 //// “And count the forebearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are SOME THINGS IN THEM HARD TO UNDERSTAND, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. … But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior J.C.”

You & I aren’t ignorant or unstable. We aren’t the major heretics Peter is referring to. But, Peter does ‘make the case’ that Paul’s messages can be misinterpreted if we read w/o lenses of GRACE. We must always take one final step — of comparing/confirming our understanding vis-a-vis the Church’s wisdom/knowledge, based on 2000 years of guidance via H.S.

That’s why we need these ‘try outs’ @ CAF … to see if have the right ‘tools’, and have our A-game ready for the World Series of life.

Look at the first 12, and Paul. They needed that First Council of Jerusalem to settle some contentious issues on circ. & gentiles. Paul and Peter made the correct calls … and they convinced James thereof. If James had been left to his own beliefs … he might of made the wrong call. Thats why we always make the critical calls with blessing of the Church.

Christ doesn’t expect us to have all the answers on day 1 after our conversions. We are always studying, and learning new concepts/wisdom @ the feet of others more experienced and studied than we.

We are God’s clay. He is constantly molding and reshaping our minds in his Hands [Christ & H.S.] Sometimes we get ourselves so ‘out of balance’ … the Potter needs to squeeze us hard and start anew. Its painful when this happens … but, the best, most valued lessons in life are learned from our struggles, trials, and humbling experiences.

Does God ever give up on us and toss our hunk of earthy clay away entirely ? NO …, not as long as we will allow him to work on us from without and within. When God saves us he doesn’t turn us into Robots. We retain our Free Will, and need only to ‘freely will’ it to him. We become his Workmanship.

But, if we refuse to let God shape our free wills in his image … we have no part of him. We become Apostates … of our own choice.

Recall when Christ washed the feet of Peter … and Peter rebuked him. Christ told Peter it was ESSENTIAL — if Peter was to remain with him. Peter made the right FREE WILL call … and desired also hands & head washed by Christ. Everyday we must make the right call … and let our Lord clean us of our errs in life. If we continue to resist [kick against the goads] … we ask for divorce, THE ULTIMATE APOSTASY. God loves marriage… but, abhors divorce.

Recall that scripture teaches “the divorced will not inherit the kingdom”.

 

[BRB]

:

In Rom 8:38-39, Paul lists all of the things that will never separate His people from Him. He finishes his list with this collective statement: "nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.”

?

Interesting you chose this passage of scripture.

Pax, Guano, and all those who don’t accept salvation assurance should hear what JEREMIAH has to say on the topic.

link: www.oneplace.com/ministries/turning_point/

Listen to the Tues. 26th & Wed. 27 th programs … 10 minutes each in length…

Jeremiah’s apologetic messages on this topic are PRIMO.

 

[savedsinner]

True believers, the redeemed, cannot go to hell. Many “Protestants” and “Catholics” will experience hell. However, all true believers are part of the first resurrection and the “second death” (the “Lake of Fire”) has no power over them (Rev. 20:6)That’s right! The penalty for our sins was laid on the Substitute. What keeps men out of heaven is not sins, but unbelief. Consequently, it’s also what puts them in hell. Salvation is not a sin issue (Christ died for them - ALL of them). It’s a faith issue.Since salvation is a faith issue, and one believes the gospel message, then nothing can separate him from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 8:38-39)Rom 8:31-34 "What then shall we say to these things? If God {is} for us, who {is} against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."This is salvation “by grace through faith, …the gift of God, …not as a result of works.” This is salvation according to the Apostle Paul and the N.T. writers.

So when will we know we are “true believers”?
On Judgment day?

 

[savedsinner]

In Rom 8:38-39, Paul lists all of the things that will never separate His people from Him. He finishes his list with this collective statement: "nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.”

God loves everyone, even the people in hell.
I

 

[ryanoneil]

What do you think it means to be “created in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:10)?

To be born again through baptism.

 

[savedsinner]

What does the obedience of faith mean?

(and please don’t refer me to the NIV translation which is the only translation which uses the words “to the obedience that comes from faith”)

Romans 1:5
through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

Remember what God said in the book of Genesis:

Genesis 26:3-5
I will be with you, and will bless you; for to you and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will fulfil the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give to your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves: because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

For myself, I think the obedience of faith is summed up later in Romans:
Romans 15:18
For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed,

 

[sandusky]

Philthy:

No one is free of supposition, I suppose.
That, of course, only admits our individual limitations and argues for the necessity of relying on something other than ourselves to declare what is meant by the words recorded in Scripture. Who’s that authority for you?

We’re all influenced by those around us, and from the earthly perspective it’s our hearts, and from the spiritual perspective it’s the Spirit.

Philthy:

That, of course, is begging the question. So now you would have us believe that there are 2 baptisms, one which is irrelevant and one upon which our very salvation depends and that the inspired authors didnt bother to clarify which one they were speaking about. I simply dont find that even remotely compelling.

There was the baptism of John, and the Baptism of the HS, but at the moment I’m speaking concerning the “baptism” Peter talks about in 1 Pet 3.

“Baptize,” in the Greek simply means “immersion.”**Mark 1:8

8 “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16

16 John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.**So John’s baptism “immerses” people into water.

Then we have Christ, who was baptized with the water ”to fulfill all righteous, using the word “baptize” with a meaning other than being immersed into water:**Mark 10:38-39

38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”

39 They said to Him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.

Luke 12:50

50 “But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!**Does Jesus mean that He’s going to experience water baptism? No, but the baptism of the Cross and suffering for sin.

We also have the baptism of those in the wilderness into Moses:**1 Corinthians 10:1-2

1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;

2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;**Does that mean Moses baptized all of the children of Israel while they were in flight from the Pharaoh? Obviously not, their baptism into Moses indicates their oneness, their relationship, their solidarity with Moses as their deliverer sent from God (a type of Christ).

Notice as well that the people ”passed through the sea.”

That’s the same thing Peter says concerning Noah and his—they were ”brought safely through the water.”

What does Peter say next?

He says, ”Correspondingly,” (Gk. antitupos, or antitype, which is a symbol or pattern of a something).

So Peter says, ”an antitype of that, baptism now saves you (not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God from a good conscience) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Did Jesus’ baptism in Mk 10 and Lk 12 remove dirt from Him? No, because it was not water baptism.

Did the baptism of Moses remove dirt from the Israelites? No, because it was not water baptism.

Does the baptism Peter speaks of remove dirt from the body? No, because it’s not water baptism.

Pay attention to the context. Noah and his family were saved by being in the ark, as those who are Christ’s are saved by being in Him—the ark brought them through the water.

In Peter’s context, the water is not what saves, water is the instrument God uses to destroy every living thing, except for those He placed in the ark.

So too, Christ (the ark) safely delivers through their perils (the water in Peter’s context) those God places in Him.

The point is, baptism has more than one meaning, and Peter’s meaning of baptism in this passage is not water baptism.

Philthy:

This does not prove your point - it barely even hints at the possibility of the interpretation that you have. Notice that he’s concerned about this “water baptism” happening. Why? You have no answer, I cant imagine anything according to your theology that would explain this very basic fact.

He’s concerned about the baptism because He was instructed ”to make disciples…baptizing them…” and that’s what occurred. Cornelius and his were believing disciples who had received the Spirit, and then Peter baptized them.

Philthy:

They received a gift of the holy Spirit (“speaking with tongues”) as a sign that God wants them included. It does not mean that they recieved the gift of the forgiveness of their sins.

Redemption and the forgiveness of sins is through Christ’s blood, not through baptism (Acts 2:38; Eph 1:7, etc.).

 

[sandusky]

savedsinner:

God loves everyone, even the people in hell.

**Psalm 5:4-6

4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You.

5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.

6 You destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Psalm 11:5

5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.**.


.

 

[BRB]

There was the baptism of John, and the Baptism of the HS, but at the moment I’m speaking concerning the “baptism” Peter talks about in 1 Pet 3.

“Baptize,” in the Greek simply means “immersion.”Mark 1:8

8 “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16

16 John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.So John’s baptism “immerses” people into water.

Then we have Christ, who was baptized with the water ”to fulfill all righteous, using the word “baptize” with a meaning other than being immersed into water:Mark 10:38-39

38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”

39 They said to Him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.

Luke 12:50

50 “But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!Does Jesus mean that He’s going to experience water baptism? No, but the baptism of the Cross and suffering for sin.

c.).

Well done … very discriminating discussion. Base hit double.

 

[BRB]

Psalm 5:4-6

4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You.

5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.

6 You destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Psalm 11:5

5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates…


.

Indeed, so the scriptures teach …

Sandman advances to 3rd base.

 

[savedsinner]

Psalm 5:4-6

4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You.

5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.

6 You destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Psalm 11:5

5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates…


.

Wisdom 11:25-27
For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made; for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. How would anything have endured, if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living.

 

[BRB]

Wisdom 11:25-27
You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living.

Well, satan is a living being … yes, God once loved him. But, no more. Unrepentant sin separates a creation from the Lord.

 

[davidv]

Well, satan is a living being … yes, God once loved him. But, no more. Unrepentant sin separates a creation from the Lord.

How does our separation change God’s love for us? Did the prodigal son’s father love him less because he left to squander his inheritance?

 

[runandsew]

One shouldn’t just focus on the passages where it states that we are saved by faith, and then just ignore or try to explain away the passages where it says that our faith needs to be accompanied by Love and Charity It is not an either/or situation, it is both/and.
Savedsinner posted about obedience in faith, and no one touched on that. It seems that moondweller and sandusky only answer to the things they can easily argue, and ignore the posts that seem to go against their position.
I have read where they say that the warnings about falling into sin or not doing good works and losing salvation is not for the “true believers” since they can’t lose their salvation. In other words, these “true believers” are the ones who have the good works accompanying their faith I guess.

Does a saving faith have good works accompanying it or not?

** Matthew 7:21**
“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven”.

Matthew 19:16-17
“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’”.

John 14:21
“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him”.

** Romans 2:2-8**
“But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury”.

Galatians 5:4-6
“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love”.

** Ephesians 2:8-10**
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them”.

Philippians 2:12-13
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure”.

James 2:14-24
“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”

 

[Philthy]

Hi Sandusky - thanks for your thoughtful, detailed response.

We’re all influenced by those around us, and from the earthly perspective it’s our hearts, and from the spiritual perspective it’s the Spirit.

Your authority is your heart and the holy Spirit? Interesting.
What are the rest of us to do?

The point is, baptism has more than one meaning, and Peter’s meaning of baptism in this passage is not water baptism.

Thank you for wrapping it up here - without this statement I would not have followed your logic. Your association of water(and water baptism) with destruction and, therefore, not rebirth is imperfect. The reality is that we all must die in order to be reborn in Christ. Our baptism does indeed destroy something - our former self - so that we can be raised with Him. In fact that is the whole point.

“Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of** life**.”

He’s concerned about the baptism because He was instructed ”to make disciples…baptizing them…” and that’s what occurred. Cornelius and his were believing disciples who had received the Spirit, and then Peter baptized them.

Yeah, well it seems like your basically reduced to arguing that Christ left this command for no apparent reason. You’re basically saying that Peter did it because Christ told him to. It’s only natural to wonder why. But when asked why, if it accomplishes nothing, would Chirst command it - you have no answer. Perhaps if there was even one other example of Christ “binding” something upon the Apostles that ultimately is irrelevant salvifically I might reconsider the validity of your stance. Im not aware of any such thing. As it stands, it doesnt quite fit together. The history of the early Church confirms my suspicion as well.
I do thank you for some excellent points for consideration and how you tied the OT and NT together in the context of baptism.

 

[runandsew]

We’re all influenced by those around us, and from the earthly perspective it’s our hearts, and from the spiritual perspective it’s the Spirit.

There was the baptism of John, and the Baptism of the HS, but at the moment I’m speaking concerning the “baptism” Peter talks about in 1 Pet 3.

“Baptize,” in the Greek simply means “immersion.”Mark 1:8

8 “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16

16 John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.So John’s baptism “immerses” people into water.

Then we have Christ, who was baptized with the water ”to fulfill all righteous, using the word “baptize” with a meaning other than being immersed into water:Mark 10:38-39

38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”

39 They said to Him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.

Luke 12:50

50 “But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!Does Jesus mean that He’s going to experience water baptism? No, but the baptism of the Cross and suffering for sin.

We also have the baptism of those in the wilderness into Moses:1 Corinthians 10:1-2

1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;

2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;Does that mean Moses baptized all of the children of Israel while they were in flight from the Pharaoh? Obviously not, their baptism into Moses indicates their oneness, their relationship, their solidarity with Moses as their deliverer sent from God (a type of Christ).

Notice as well that the people ”passed through the sea.”

That’s the same thing Peter says concerning Noah and his—they were ”brought safely through the water.”

What does Peter say next?

He says, ”Correspondingly,” (Gk. antitupos, or antitype, which is a symbol or pattern of a something).

So Peter says, ”an antitype of that, baptism now saves you (not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God from a good conscience) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Did Jesus’ baptism in Mk 10 and Lk 12 remove dirt from Him? No, because it was not water baptism.

Did the baptism of Moses remove dirt from the Israelites? No, because it was not water baptism.

Does the baptism Peter speaks of remove dirt from the body? No, because it’s not water baptism.

Pay attention to the context. Noah and his family were saved by being in the ark, as those who are Christ’s are saved by being in Him—the ark brought them through the water.

In Peter’s context, the water is not what saves, water is the instrument God uses to destroy every living thing, except for those He placed in the ark.

So too, Christ (the ark) safely delivers through their perils (the water in Peter’s context) those God places in Him.

The point is, baptism has more than one meaning, and Peter’s meaning of baptism in this passage is not water baptism.

He’s concerned about the baptism because He was instructed ”to make disciples…baptizing them…” and that’s what occurred. Cornelius and his were believing disciples who had received the Spirit, and then Peter baptized them.

Redemption and the forgiveness of sins is through Christ’s blood, not through baptism (Acts 2:38; Eph 1:7, etc.).

All of the early church fathers quotes that I have read seem to point to born again in baptism.

Could you please point me to the writings of the early church fathers who taught what you are saying here. I would love to see their quotes and see for my self how they contradicted themselves.

 

[sandusky]

runandsew:

One shouldn’t just focus on the passages where it states that we are saved by faith, and then just ignore or try to explain away the passages where it says that our faith needs to be accompanied by Love and Charity It is not an either/or situation, it is both/and.

I’m not ignoring them, they’re true; nevertheless, one cannot do those things unless, and until he has been saved.

Then, and only then, can he do those things; therefore, they do not save him—he was saved before them doing them, and not by doing them (Eph 2:8-10).

runandsew:

Savedsinner posted about obedience in faith, and no one touched on that. It seems that moondweller and sandusky only answer to the things they can easily argue, and ignore the posts that seem to go against their position.

You’re unreasonably impatient with me, but not impatient with yourself, even though you’ve taken three days to respond to me, and that without even answering the questions I’ve asked you to answer.

That’s another question I have. Is it your contention that everyone attending the church of Rome at the time of the writing of the epistle was truly a Christian?

runandsew:

I have read where they say that the warnings about falling into sin or not doing good works and losing salvation is not for the “true believers” since they can’t lose their salvation. In other words, these “true believers” are the ones who have the good works accompanying their faith I guess.

Not true—true believers will fall into sin, and sometimes not do good works. You are right about my position that the true believer cannot lose his salvation, however.

runandsew:

Does a saving faith have good works accompanying it or not?

Yes it does.

 

[sandusky]

All of the early church fathers quotes that I have read seem to point to born again in baptism.

Could you please point me to the writings of the early church fathers who taught what you are saying here. I would love to see their quotes and see for my self how they contradicted themselves.

You view the Truth of God’s word through the lens of the Fathers and the lens of Tradition.

OTOH, I view Tradition and the Fathers through the lens of God’s word, the Truth.

Are the Fathers inspired writers of Scripture, or infallible?

 

[Philthy]

sandusky:

OTOH, I view Tradition and the Fathers through the lens of God’s word, the Truth.

You’re too funny. It used to bother me when you’d post stuff like this - I have come to be amused by it. I suppose that’s progress.

Are the Fathers inspired writers of Scripture, or infallible?

What does the lens of God’s word say? Chapter and verse please… Truly humorous…

 

[sandusky]

Philthy:

You’re too funny. It used to bother me when you’d post stuff like this - I have come to be amused by it. I suppose that’s progress.

Actually it’s a “borrowed” Catholic argument on the subject of scripture and tradition reversed.