The Commandments should not be followed ... Part 2

[Catholic_Dude]

Thanks for the link, however, page 356 is said not to be included in the book preview to which you linked, so I still don’t have the full context. I’m unable to find the lead-in your post above because it’s not on the link.

With respect to what I’ve put in “red,” without the entire context, neither of us knows for sure what he said leading up to the statements to the initial point of the post.

With respect to what I’ve placed in “blue,” as I said, those statements are in the present tense and are continually happening, without condition.

The conditional particle "ei," is used throughout by John throughout his Gospel, but not in John 10.

Even with the missing context (limited preview removed 356) most of that chapter is available to view. That chapter is DEDICATED to refuting Eternal Security.

 

[mikeledes]

!
:bowdown:

I know it may be hard to accept, but I am only a mere mortal.

I’m sure this is just a typo. Calvinism did not come up with Perseverance of the Saints they ROBBED and TWISTED it from Scripture and Doctors like St Augustine. You’ve quoted St A’s book on this, so I’m sure it was a typo.
Perseverance only makes sense if you can fall, not if the possibility of falling doesn’t even exist

Also, regarding the “never perish”, Jesus also says the following about never perishing:

John 14:23

23Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word…"

John 8:51

**51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death." **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

I’m sure this is just a typo. Calvinism did not come up with Perseverance of the Saints they ROBBED and TWISTED it from Scripture and Doctors like St Augustine. You’ve quoted St A’s book on this, so I’m sure it was a typo.

God’s elect can’t rob from the Scripture, it was given to them through the Jews.

mikeledes:

Perseverance only makes sense if you can fall, not if the possibility of falling doesn’t even exist.

Yep, that’s the only possibility that exists. :nope:

 

[sandusky]

Even with the missing context (limited preview removed 356) most of that chapter is available to view. That chapter is DEDICATED to refuting Eternal Security.

John uses conditional statements throughout his gospel, but not in the Jn 10 passages under consideration.

Without the full context, we don’t know what Moody’s lead in was.

 

[Church_Militant]

I have a question for both teams:

Is water baptism a command of the Lord?
A simple yes or no will suffice. Yes.
Baptism~ Necessary or Not?

 

[sandusky]

“If you dont forgive others their trespasses neither will your Heavenly father forgive you” Matt 6:14

John 10:27-28

“My sheep hear My voice (and one of the things they keep on hearing me say is forgive others), and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Clarification of one of the things His sheep keep on hearing in “red” by me.

 

[mikeledes]

Hey Catholic Dude! Here are a couple of good links refuting the Calvinist/OSAS arguments regarding some of the “falling away” passages. This is also for Pax. It’s from an Arminian website, but they make good points:

arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/06/06/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-10-tying-up-loose-ends-in-hebrews/

arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/06/06/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-10-tying-up-loose-ends-in-hebrews/

arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-8-what-kind-of-sanctification-is-being-described-in-hebrews-1029/

arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/06/06/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-10-tying-up-loose-ends-in-hebrews/

I just realized I repeated some links!

arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-9-hebrews-1032-39/

arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2008/04/03/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-7-who-is-sanctified-in-hebrews-1029/

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

Also, regarding the “never perish”, Jesus also says the following about never perishing:

John 14:23

23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word…”

John 8:51

51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."
.

** John 10:27-28**

“My sheep [keep on] hear[ing] My voice (and therefore, keep on keeping my word), and I [keep on ] know[ing] them, and they [keep on] follow[ing] Me; and I [keep on] give[ing] eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Context, Mike, context.

Both of the verses you cite are in the subjunctive mood and are therefore, conditional, and allow for the possibility of the action of the verb to either happen, or not.

However, and most importantly, you miss the identification of those spoken of; namely, anyone.

I’m certain that your thinking runs something to the effect of ”anyone would include His Sheep!"

But that’s not the case, because again, you miss something important; namely, the specificity of Jn 10:27ff demonstrated by the Personal Pronoun ”MY” sheep.

Therefore, anyone does not include His sheep because they keep on hearing, and doing all the things He said

I’ve included the literal translation, and inserted in red, another of the things His sheep keep on hearing.

 

[mikeledes]

What’s conspicuously missing in the above formula is “believe.”

And what’s missing in the above formula is love:

Galatians 5:6

**6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. **

James 2:14-16

12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty (love).
13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

1 John 4:17-18

17But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

1 Corinthians 13:2

**and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. **

2 Peter 1:5-9

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness LOVE. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

John 14:23

23Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word

John 8:51

51"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death

1 John 5:3

3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Matthew 7:21

21"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

James 2:5

**5Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? **

1 Corinthians 2:9

**9but just as it is written,
“THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.” **

Matthew 25:34-36,40, 46

**34"Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35’For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
40"The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." **

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Romans 2:6-7

**6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; **

John 5:28-29

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Fides Caritate Formata, not Sola Fide.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Context, Mike, context.

Both of the verses you cite are in the subjunctive mood and are therefore, conditional, and allow for the possibility of the action of the verb to either happen, or not.

However, and most importantly, you miss the identification of those spoken of; namely, anyone.

I’m certain that your thinking runs something to the effect of ”anyone would include His Sheep!"

But that’s not the case, because again, you miss something important; namely, the specificity of Jn 10:27ff demonstrated by the Personal Pronoun ”MY” sheep.

Therefore, anyone does not include His sheep because they keep on hearing, and doing all the things He said

I’ve included the literal translation, and inserted in red, another of the things His sheep keep on hearing.

So if '“anyone” doesn’t include His sheep, then does that mean that His sheep will not love Him or keep His word? If they keep his word, aren’t they included in the anyone?

I have to go Sandusky. I hope you have a very blessed Labor Day weekend. May God bless you and your family. I may or may not be online this weekend.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Catholic_Dude]

John uses conditional statements throughout his gospel, but not in the Jn 10 passages under consideration.

Without the full context, we don’t know what Moody’s lead in was.

REGARDLESS what his lead in was, Moody is ANTI-OSAS as the WHOLE CHAPTER is devoted to refute it.
Your original spin was that Moody was OSAS and could not have meant anything anti-osas about jn 10, that is highly improbable if not downright wrong.

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

So if '“anyone” doesn’t include His sheep, then does that mean that His sheep will not love Him or keep His word?

I don’t understand how you can ask that question, Mike; how could they possibly be His sheep according to the verses that you cite???

 

[sandusky]

Catholic Dude:

REGARDLESS what his lead in was, Moody is ANTI-OSAS as the WHOLE CHAPTER is devoted to refute it.

Moody was a middle-of-the-roader, a moderate Calvinist who believed that “once in grace, always in grace,” or assurance of salvation.
Catholic Dude:

Your original spin was that Moody was OSAS and could not have meant anything anti-osas about jn 10, that is highly improbable if not downright wrong.

Moody was a middle-of-the-roader, a moderate Calvinist who believed that “once in grace, always in grace,” or assurance of salvation.

 

[guanophore]

B]."[/indent]Is it possible for one to live a “lifelong journey” of “following” Jesus and yet never “believe in” Him? Most certainly. And those who do, “do,” rather than believe what God has DONE!.

I don’t think it is, because following HIm begins, moves, and ends in “believe”. However, I do agree that there are many who think they are “following” and are not acting from faith, but rely on their own works. I myself was like this for many years, because I did not understand the Apostolic Teaching that salvation is based on grace.

However, there is not an “either/or” distinction between believing. A person who has faith will “do”. Such doing, to be of benefit, must be based on grace, through faith.

 

[guanophore]

The reformed/biblical view of man is the accurate view—hands down.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course. The fact that it is not consistent with Apostolic Teaching notwithstanding.

The true church is the elect/justified, those whom God also glorified in eternity past—that’s what Christ calls them, and why Christ calls them ekklasia in Mt 16:18 from ekkaleo—the "called out ones.”

Yes, I agree about the church. However, the passages about those glorified are in the past tense because they refer to those who have completed the race. Only those who have left this world in His friendship are glorified.

As scripture clearly reveals, there are many who are called out that don’t stay out (of the world, the flesh, and the devil). Those who have been called and justified may choose to return to their former way of life, cutting themselves off from the grace in which they stood.

 

[guanophore]

They were delivered from death by the ark, guanophore, who is Christ, that’s Peter’s point—baptism is not Christ, but the ark—ISTM, you see all kinds of “spiritual things” in the scripture, but you miss Christ.

I agree that they were saved by being in the ark. Yet, they were saved “through water”. It was water that buried the world, bringing death. What Peter is saying is that we are saved “through” the water, because in baptism we are buried under the water, being united with HIm in His death and burial.

" In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12 when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when he forgave us all our trespasses…"

Baptism joins us to Christ in His death and resurrection. Baptism washes away sins, and we are forgiven of all our trespasses.

You see all kinds of “spiritual things,” but you miss Christ…

I don’t’ see how you can think about baptism at all without Christ. We are not literally “washed in His blood”. This is a spiritual reality, not a physical one. We become "washed’ through water baptism.

No He didn’t, He used a dream to show Peter that. He then sent Peter to Cornelius, and when Peter saw that Cornelius and those in his household had received the Spirit “in the same manner as the Jews,” then they baptized.

Well, we probably should argue this point on another thread. What all the Apostles did is water baptize the converts. Peter would not do this to a Gentile unless God convinced HIm it needed to be done. Scripture is clear that Peter confined himself to the Jews.

The significance of baptism, and the connection of the forgiveness of sins to it is this: ***“in the name of Christ”:***Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”In the name of Christ,” that’s what they’ve repented to (For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God—1 Thess 1:9), and now believe that the forgiveness of sins is in the name of Christ and confession thereupon.

I agree. My only point is that the Apostles never separate repentance, profession of faith, washing of sins, and reception of the HS from water Baptism. This has been the continual Teaching received from the Apostles.

Baptism didn’t die for the forgiveness of sins—Christ did!

Indeed, and baptism is the manner in which we become joined with HIm in his death. As Scripture states, we are “buried with HIm” in baptism, and we join in His resurrection power when we rise from the waters of baptism. This happens by the action of the HS, who was joined to the baptismal waters by Christ.

As with Cornelius, so with Paul the reception of the Spirit was prior to baptism—read the account.
That’s in the history contained in the Scripture.

God is not bound by the Sacraments. Baptism is the normative means by which Jesus intended for these actions of the HS to occur, yet He can do whatever He wishes. I agree that Paul’s spirit was kindled by the HS, but it was in baptism that he was told he could “wash away sins”. This happens because baptism is accompanied by a profession of faith, and is done “in HIs name”. This “calling on His name” is what has been practiced from the first day until now.

 

[Pax]

You have no assurance at all, Pax. You have no idea if you’ll “be saved” at the end of your life because according to your theology you’re “being saved” daily based on the quality of your “love” for God as demonstrated by your works.

For you Catholics (and BRB), Jesus did His part, now you must do yours. But you can have no assurance that you’re doing, or have done, your part, Pax. You don’t even know if you’re deceiving yourself.

You don’t know in the end if you’ve “covered all the bases.” Not even those whom you’ve set up as your “umpires” (Popes, Priest & Prelates) can help you there. They have no assurance themselves (they’re being judged by the same performance law - only stricter).

Yours is the “hope so” World Series. You’ve yet to find out who wins and can only hope it’s you. It’s all based on your performance, and you’re not done playing the game.

Now you see…you’ve done it again. You’ve distorted what I and others have said.

Shall we give you high fives for that and concede and convert to your belief? Hardly.

Now I will ask you a simple and straight forward question.

Why do you find it necessary to deliberately distort our views?

I’ve distorted nothing. What real assurance do you have, Pax, that you’re presently “being saved,” and in the end you “will be saved?” Do they at all depend on your performance?

Catholics firmly and rightly believe that we have a moral assurance of salvation. We simply do not believe that we have a metaphysica/absolute certitude. This is consistent with scripture whereas your position is not. Only God knows for certain who it is that is ultimately saved. God is the judge not us.

Our position is the same as Paul’s position. Paul says the following which might help you out on this matter:

1 Corinthians 4:3-4
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.

 

[Pax]

Yes.

No, Pax.Psalm 103:13-14

Just as a father has compassion on his children, So the Lord has compassion on those who fear Him.

For He Himself knows our frame; He is mindful that we are but dust.

I never said that it did Pax; that’s a conclusion to which you jumped.

That’s because imperfect faith and works is all anyone has; only one has perfect works.

Which perfection will not occur until the moment you stop breathing.

This does not refute my point. We are saved by grace alone through faith and works, and not by faith alone. Grace is the impetus and foundation that propels our faith and works. Our involvement in both is the same. God’s involvement in both is the same. In terms of grace and salvation, the credit and glory for the faith and the works go to God. This should all be very easy to understand and appreciate.

 

[guanophore]

“We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

Hence, if anyone shall dare—which God forbid!—to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart.[/indent]

IOW, belief in the IC is an addition to the gospel.

Not at all! This is what was received from the Apostles, and has been continuously taught in all those communities established by them that have held fast to the Traditions as Scripture directs. The addition is the official proclaimation, not the doctrine itself. Just like the proclaimation of the canon at the council of Trent, only a statement of what has been held.

I don’t see how anyone could see it to be otherwise because, if one even dares to think otherwise, he is condemned, suffers shipwreck of faith (which Catholic’s claim = loss of salvation), and is separated from the Church.

Realize that he is directing this to Catholic faithful. Those who have never had this faith can obviously not shipwreck a ship in which they were never at sea!

Apostasy is falling away from the faith. It requires that one be joined to that faith. Most Protestants have never received the Apostolic faith, so they cannot qualifiy to be heretics, apostates, or shipwrecked.

And that addition made by the same man who declared himself, his predecessors, and his successors infallible; correct?

Actually, it was Jesus who stated that He had prayed for Peter, that his faith would not fail.

IMO, the elect will reject the IC because the IC has never been, is not now, and will never be a part of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

That makes sense. Since most Protestants have never been taught the full Gospel that was committed by the Apostles to faithful men who were able to teach others also, it is understandable that they will reject elements of it.

 

[Pax]

I have a question for both teams:

Is water baptism a command of the Lord?
A simple yes or no will suffice.

YES:thumbsup: