The communion rail, or standing for communion?

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karin
Sorry but how is it belittling to state that Protestants view the communion as “symblos”???

It must have to do with the new spirit of ecumenism.

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The way some people go over the edge. What next—hide the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and our Lord on the Altar because to them—some protestants might feel belittled.

 

[Rykell]

To the triplets who are derailing this thread and insulting our Protestant brethren:

I agree with Militant’s analysis, that it was not the topic of the thread, and there was no reason to slip in the uncalled for remark, which does appear to be a demeaning slur on those who believe differently and who sometimes visit our forums.

You may need to examine your complete misunderstanding of how many of these christians believe in the Real Presence before you jump in and make comments like this. And I know Paramedicgirl reported Anam’s reply as a bad post, for heaven’s sake! Yet you two baited him.

For your information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Presence

Representative of the faith of Oriental Orthodoxy are the words of the Ethiopic liturgy: “I believe, I believe, I believe and profess to the last breath that this is the body and the blood of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, which he took from our Lady, the holy and immaculate Virgin Mary, the Mother of God.”

The Eastern Orthodox Church Synod of Jerusalem declared: "We believe the Lord Jesus Christ to be present, not typically, nor figuratively, nor by superabundant grace, as in the other Mysteries, … but truly and really, so that after the consecration of the bread and of the wine, the bread is transmuted, transubstantiated, converted and transformed into the true Body Itself of the Lord.

None of these Churches see what is really in the Eucharist as a corpse and mere blood, but as the whole Christ, body and blood, soul and divinity; nor do they see the persisting outward appearances of bread and wine as a mere illusion. This actual transformation, change or conversion of the reality, while the appearances remain unaltered – not the process or manner by which the transformation comes about, since all agree that this occurs “in a way surpassing understanding”[3] – has been called transubstantiation or, in Greek, μετουσίωσις (metousiosis).

Since you have no idea which of our Protestant brethren believe in the Real Presence, and who does not, it is unseemly to say anything whatsoever, especially in the manner it was posted.

Edit: My apologies to Jo Benedict, as I did not see your post until after this message was entered and looked back over the thread. Thank you.

 

[Walking_Home]

To the triplets who are derailing this thread and insulting our Protestant brethren:

I agree with Militant’s analysis, that it was not the topic of the thread, and there was no reason to slip in the uncalled for remark, which does appear to be a demeaning slur on those who believe differently and who sometimes visit our forums.

You may need to examine your complete misunderstanding of how many of these christians believe in the Real Presence before you jump in and make comments like this. And I know Paramedicgirl reported Anam’s reply as a bad post, for heaven’s sake! Yet you two baited him.

For your information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Presence

Since you have no idea which of our Protestant brethren believe in the Real Presence, and who does not, it is unseemly to say anything whatsoever, especially in the manner it was posted.

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Why are you lumping the Eastern Orthodox with the protestants.

 

[MTD]

But I’d love to kneel at my parish, though the Novus Ordo GIRM doesn’t allow it…

It’s most unfortunate that you have been led to believe that kneeling is not allowed in the new GIRM because it is allowed. Take a look at this article. I’d like to call special attention to the following words of the Congregation for Divine Worship:

In view of the law that “sacred” ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (Canon 843 s.1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

and

…while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.

I am not allowed to recieve on the tongue at my parish

What!? If that’s true, it’s a grave abuse. Here it says that “…each of the faithful always has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, at his choice…”

There is such a thing as standing up for your rights!

Maria

 

[paramedicgirl]

It’s most unfortunate that you have been led to believe that kneeling is not allowed in the new GIRM because it is allowed. Take a look at this article. I’d like to call special attention to the following words of the Congregation for Divine Worship:

In view of the law that “sacred” ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (Canon 843 s.1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

and

…while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.

What!? If that’s true, it’s a grave abuse. Here it says that “…each of the faithful always has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, at his choice…”

There is such a thing as standing up for your rights!

Maria

Thanks for looking that up. And for getting us back on topic.

**while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion. **

 

[paramedicgirl]

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Why are you lumping the Eastern Orthodox with the protestants.

That’s what I was wondering, too. If there are protestant denominations who believe in the Real Presence, which ones are they? And wouldn’t that belief require them to seek out the Catholic Church?

If anyone denies that the Body and Blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained in the Sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, but says that Christ is present in the Sacrament as a sign or figure, or by his power, let them be anathema. The Council of Trent 728 (883)

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

It is obvious from your humor that you would still be beautiful, even trying to get up…!!!

Oh, bless your heart…thank you…

:heart:Blyss

 

[Karin]

. And I know Paramedicgirl reported Anam’s reply as a bad post, for heaven’s sake! Yet you two baited him.

For your information this is against forum rules

1. 
   *]Do not post others’ e-mail addresses, private messages, or private e-mail sent by them unless they give you permission to do so.
   forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

If I were in your parish, you could lean on me. We’d do it together!!!

Thank you netmil(name removed by moderator)…I would like that

:heart:Blyss

 

[Karin]

You may need to examine your complete misunderstanding of how many of these christians believe in the Real Presence before you jump in and make comments like this.
Since you have no idea which of our Protestant brethren believe in the Real Presence, and who does not, it is unseemly to say anything whatsoever, especially in the manner it was posted.

.

Protestant Communion
Protestant conceptions of the eucharist differ in one very important way from the Catholic conception of the sacrament: Catholics believe that through the words and actions of the priests transubstantiation occurs, and that the bread and wine that the priests hold become, in reality, the body and blood of Christ. At the time of the Protestant Reformation, these notions about the nature of the eucharist began to be contested. Most Protestant traditions call the ritual communion, rather than the Eucharist. There are major differences between the Protestant practice of communion and the Eucharist. Most Protestant traditions about communion do not rely on the power of a priest to transform the bread into the body of Christ. There are fewer rules governing the preparation and administration of communion. However it in no way makes this practice any less important to Protestant faiths.
It is necessary to understand that Protestantism is a general term encompassing many denominations and the practice of communion varies within these denominations. Some engage in the act of communion every Sunday, while others take part in it monthly, quarterly, or less. There are also differences in ideas about the nature of the consecrated bread and wine.
A common thread in Protestant conceptions of communion is that it does not require a priestly blessing to become significant. While an ordained clergy member is the ideal administrator, his or her words do not hold more power than the words of a layman. Rather, in their belief in the sacrament, Protestants bring forth their faith in Jesus and in God and the forgiveness of sins. It is more of a symbolic act commemorating the Last Supper, the Passion and its promised redemption.
SOURCE

 

[Karin]

I think you guys can do a lot better.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

So is it Church Militant…Michael…or Black Knight??
Which user name do you prefer?

 

[Rykell]

Is it refugees, Karin? Watch.

 

[Julianna]

So is it Church Militant…Michael…or Black Knight??
Which user name do you prefer?

not sure what this has to do with the topic/poll.

Anyway, I answered the poll and I chose, it doesn’t matter to me. I don’t recall going to communion with thought of altar rail or no altar rail on my mind. I have experienced both in my lifetime. IMHO, it really doesn’t matter…because it is allowed.

For those who wish to kneel, that is there choice. I can respect that.

Juli

 

[Marilena]

i voted kneel because it is more reverent to me. iam kneeling to receive our Lord. it is precisely what i would do if i saw Him in person. Jesus says, happy are those who believe and do not see. He was referring to people who do not need to see Him in order to believe in Him.

for me, kneeling is so incredibly wonderful, that when my turn comes around the receive our Lord, i always put my head down in deep reverence i know that since i cannot see Him physically i know He is really present regardless of whether or not we can see Him physically.

I believe those that prefer to stand probably feel the same way.
iam only relating how it is for me. kneeling to me is very very reverent. it feels humble ( not saying those who prefer to stand are not being or feeling humble or irreverent ) nd over flows my heart with intense joy. for me, i could never stand again to receive our Lord. that is only me, and iam only speaking for myself and no one else.

 

[Church_Militant]

So is it Church Militant…Michael…or Black Knight??
Which user name do you prefer?

All of the above, but that doesn’t matter.

Stick to the topic…I like to take communion in the hand but I wouldn’t care as long as I was receiving Our Lord.

There is more than enough evidence that the early church received in their hands and “made a throne of their hands” for Our Lord.

Personal preferences are just fine, but that’s all they are.

 

[Strummer]

So, the question is how could a reference to Protestant communion being nothing more than “wonder bread and grape juice” possible give offense to anybody?

Originally Posted by paramedicgirl
I am saying that the Protestants don’t believe in transubstantiation, only in the bread and wine as a symbol. So, yeah, that makes it a meal. It’s certainly NOT the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. It’s certainly NOT the Holy Sacrifice that Catholics are privileged to be in the presence of.

As an elder of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and now a Catholic allow me to elighten you all.

While Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence of our Lord in the elements of the bread and wine, they do indeed believe in the presence of the Holy Spirit. To demean the communal meal as “just a symbolic meal” demeans the Holy Spirit as well. I grant you that the presence of Jesus Christ is not manifest in a Protestant communion as in a Catholic Eurcharist and that our separated bretheren are missing out on a full communion with our Lord. However, to deny the presence of the Holy Spirit in the worship of these congregations seeking Our Lord and God is to limit the power and grace of God Almighty which I find to be an abridgement of the Second Commandment.

“Just wonder bread and grape juice” is undeniably dismissive and condescending. I do not believe that those who would make such remarks are so simplistic in their faith that they could only see the physical manifestations of other traditions. We are talking about adults who, granted the gift of reason and responsibility, knowingly belittled brothers and sisters in Christ and the Grace of the Holy Spirit that they sought to envoke.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

It’s most unfortunate that you have been led to believe that kneeling is not allowed in the new GIRM because it is allowed. Take a look at this article. I’d like to call special attention to the following words of the Congregation for Divine Worship:

What!? If that’s true, it’s a grave abuse. Here it says that “…each of the faithful always has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, at his choice…”

There is such a thing as standing up for your rights!

My understanding is that kneeling is allowed in the sense that the priest/bishop is permitted to introduce kneeling at communion. It is not allowed in the sense that, if no provision is made for kneeling and that is not the custom, the communicant may not kneel. However current instructions are that communion is not to be denied to people who kneel.

Communion is not a time to make points, even if I happen to agree with the point being made.

Communion on the tongue is a bit different. Everyone, except at an indult Mass, has the right to receive either in the hand on on the tongue, at their choice.

Standing at communion evokes for me the image of a breadline. Whether this is theologically appropriate or not is difficult to say.

 

[childofmary1143]

My understanding is that kneeling is allowed in the sense that the priest/bishop is permitted to introduce kneeling at communion. It is not allowed in the sense that, if no provision is made for kneeling and that is not the custom, the communicant may not kneel. However current instructions are that communion is not to be denied to people who kneel.

Communion is not a time to make points, even if I happen to agree with the point being made.

Communion on the tongue is a bit different. Everyone, except at an indult Mass, has the right to receive either in the hand on on the tongue, at their choice.

Standing at communion evokes for me the image of a breadline. Whether this is theologically appropriate or not is difficult to say.

While kneeling for communion is up to the discretion of the Local Ordinary receiving it on the tongue is not. But good luck trying to get the Priest or the Bishop to do something about it.

However during the SARS outbreak back in 03 several dioceses had banned communion on the tongue because of it.

 

[anamchara]

There is more than enough evidence that the early church received in their hands and “made a throne of their hands” for Our Lord.

CM, where is that quote from? It sounds very lovely.

 

[Church_Militant]

CM, where is that quote from? It sounds very lovely.

A wonderful proof of the above is held to be found in a text of St. Cyril of Jerusalem (313-386) in which he counsels the faithful to “make a throne of your hands in which to receive the King [in Holy Communion].” This Father of the Church further counsels great care for any fragments which might remain in one’s hands, since just as one wouldn’t let gold dust fall to the ground so one should take even greater care when it is a question of the Body of the Lord.

ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM.
(Cateches. Mystagog. v.(1))
When thou goest to receive communion go not with thy wrists extended, nor with thy fingers separated, but placing thy left hand as a throne for thy right, which is to receive so great a King, and in the hollow of the palm receive the body of Christ, saying, Amen.

New Advent