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CatholicFireman
Guest
Silly question. Did ST. Francis and St. Dominic ever meet? I haven’t done any research on this that’s why I ask.
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
Okay . . . and what is a mendicant? Are mendicants the “active religious”?
T
The_Scott
Guest
A member of a mendicant order are those whose income and well-being are directly dependent on charity of the laity.
T
The_Scott
Guest
Actually, I live about thirty miles west of D.C.
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CatholicFireman
Guest
L
Lief_Erikson
Guest
Just out of curiosity, how do Mendicants pay for something so expensive as seminary training, for their would-be priests?
Y
Young_Thinker
Guest
How active they are depends upon their rule and charism. They are almost always more active than monks, but Carmelites are also contemplative. Meanwhile, Dominicans and Franciscans are normally very active religious. However, not all active religious are mendicants. Jesuits, for example, are clerics regulars.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Not my monks
Our Spirtual Director (that might be the wrong word) travels over 4 hours, in each direction to attend meetings, and we aren’t the only Community attached to the Monastery.
J
JReducation
Guest
First, let’s sort out a few things.
Let’s sot out priests. You seem to be very focussed on the priesthood. The priesthood is not essential to the mendicant orders. Therefore, though we do send men to obtain advanced degrees in theology and philosophy, this is not because they are going to be priests. Many will be and many will not be. But the education has nothing to do with it. The Church does not require that priests have degrees. This is a requirement of each diocese and each religious institute. In the USA most diocesan priests have a Master’s of Divinity or a Master of Arts with a major in Theology.
However, may religious orders, including the mendicants send everyone to get a four-year Master’s degree. You finish your four years of collebe and then you go on for four more years to get a Master’s degree. You can get an MA, M.Div or one of the ecclesial degrees, STL, JCL. None of these are required for the priesthood, but they are nice to have for the sake of your personal holiness and that of the community. Some friars go on for higher studies.
For example, I belong to a mendican order, Franciscan, I finsihed a BS in Math, then went on for an M.Div in theology, then an STD (Doctorate) in theology. Then I was sent back to school for an M.D. and further studies in psychiatry. I was never ordained, because the community has a surplus of priests. We have at least one priest to every house and at worse one priest to every two houses. But we have a shortage of physicians and theologians. The brother with whom I share a room has an M.Div in theology and a PhD in philosophy. The one priest that we have has an M.Div in theology and an MBA. Some friars have a BA and then go on to technical schools to study mechanics, carpentry, cooking, agricultural sciences, and so forth. The combinations are countless.
How do we afford it? Contrary to popular legends, mendicants are not beggers. The term came from the Spanish word, “mendigo”, a begger. What the rules say is that when you do not make enough money from the work of your hands, then you should not be ashamed to beg. Notice, that it says to make money fromt the work of your hands. This means that we work to pay our bills.
For example, in my house, the one friar who happens to be a brother-priest, works as a janitor at a local school. This is what he does all day long. On weekends he helps at one of the parishes by saying one mass for them. This all brings in money. Another brother, who is not a priest, but is an excellent teacher, works at a local school as a principal. Between the two of these brothers, they pay the bills for the rest of us. The other brothers in the house include me and I work with the unborn and the vulnerable. We also have two brothers who are in graduate school. One is working on his M.Div. and the other on his STD.
But God has plenty of money and always comes through. People drop food off at our door. People see our torn and shredded habits and have given us money to have new ones made. During the winter months someone noticed that I had no winter coat. They took me to a Targert and purchased a warm jacket for me. We even had a person from CAF send us a care package with all kinds of food. We have a rule never to ask for donations or salaries from the diocese. One person paid our rent for six months when we had no money and thought that we would be evicted.
Money is not something that we worry about. God provides it. I have cancer and I don’t have medical insurance, because we don’t have that. We can’t afford to pay the premiums. But there is always some very kind doctor who will take care of me.
This is a baautiful testimony to God’s love and concern for his people. The best thing is that in our house, we have one brother who is a priest and he does no parish work except one mass on Sundays, but people don’t mind being kind to us. They’re not looking for what they can receive from us. They love us because we’re their brothers and we love them because they are our brothers and sisters.
Most of the people who come to our aid are not served by us. Most of them are middle class. Our constitution prohibits serving the middle class or living among the middle class. But people are good, not matter what they get or don’t get from the friars.
The part that you must get out of this is to believe in God’s love and to believe that God ministers to you through those who are around you. He always extends his hand out to his sons and daughers. Remember the Lilies of the Field.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Young_Thinker
Guest
Oh my!Not my monks
Our Spirtual Director (that might be the wrong word) travels over 4 hours, in each direction to attend meetings, and we aren’t the only Community attached to the Monastery.
T
The_Scott
Guest
Bold and Underline are my doing.
JReduction,
I really like you. You’re a very educated man in these matters, and I appreciate your help immensely. You’ve helped me a lot.
However, in this case, you’re wrong.
I e-mailed the Director of Vocations for the Domincan Order in Washington D.C., asking if it is my choice to continue studies to be a clerical brother, or if the outcome is outside my control. This is what he sent me back (by the way, I mentioned you briefly
)"Thank you Scott for your inquiry.
St. Dominic founded the Order of Preachers as clerical, so from our foundation we have been primarily priests, though cooperator brothers share in the mission of preaching. The candidate normally applies as a clerical or cooperator brother candidate. The vocation to either is discerned with his spiritual director. Then he applies formally to the Province as clerical or cooperator brother candidate. So to answer your question, it is the candidate’s choice. The vocation as a Dominican priest or a Dominican cooperator brother are different vocations, both equally “Dominican”. I believe the Franciscan perspective on priesthood would be somewhat similar except that our foundations are slightly different: St. Dominic was a priest. St. Francis of Assisi was a deacon.
Here is an excerpt from our Fundamental Constitution:
VI. The structure of the Order as a religious society arises from its mission and fraternal communion. Since the ministry of the Word and of the sacraments of faith is a priestly office, ours is a clerical Order, whose mission the cooperator brothers, exercising in a special way the common priesthood, also share in many ways. Moreover, the total commission of the Preachers to the proclamation of the Gospel by word and work is revealed in the fact that by solemn profession they are entirely and perpetually united with the life and mission of Christ.
Hopefully also you have had the chance to look carefully at all the links on “Vocations” at www.DominicanFriars.org"
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Aunt_Raven
Guest
Dear Scott and JR,
I am following this thread with great interest and enjoyment, especially as I am bursting with pride that one of my former pupils, now 19 years old, has just returned from a discernment retreat and announced to his parents that he is sure God is calling him to the priesthood.
JR, – if my spiritual identity wasn’t Carmelite, you could sure tempt me to the Franciscans! In your own life experience you appear to me to “be living the dream.”
Canonical hermits (under Canon #603) are required by their bishops to have health insurance. I correspond with a few non-canonical hermits, none of whom have insurance.
These latter are happily unburdened with the burdensome bureaucratic mess of filing and filling out forms if and when they are seriously ill, and genuinely enjoy the adventure of faith of holy poverty which St Francis first presented as so liberating.
As your community ministers to the poor and marginalized, your posings demonstrate that “seeking first the kingdom of God,” all things are granted you besides, as all sorts of people provide for your needs of food and care.
I am very sorry you have cancer; I will (selfishly!) pray you don’t leave us for a LONG time yet !
PS: One irreverent observation: I could never with a straight face put the letters STD after my name if I had any sort of medical background . . .
I am following this thread with great interest and enjoyment, especially as I am bursting with pride that one of my former pupils, now 19 years old, has just returned from a discernment retreat and announced to his parents that he is sure God is calling him to the priesthood.
JR, – if my spiritual identity wasn’t Carmelite, you could sure tempt me to the Franciscans! In your own life experience you appear to me to “be living the dream.”
Canonical hermits (under Canon #603) are required by their bishops to have health insurance. I correspond with a few non-canonical hermits, none of whom have insurance.
These latter are happily unburdened with the burdensome bureaucratic mess of filing and filling out forms if and when they are seriously ill, and genuinely enjoy the adventure of faith of holy poverty which St Francis first presented as so liberating.
As your community ministers to the poor and marginalized, your posings demonstrate that “seeking first the kingdom of God,” all things are granted you besides, as all sorts of people provide for your needs of food and care.
I am very sorry you have cancer; I will (selfishly!) pray you don’t leave us for a LONG time yet !
PS: One irreverent observation: I could never with a straight face put the letters STD after my name if I had any sort of medical background . . .
J
JReducation
Guest
Father is correct in saying that the Dominicans were founded as a clerical institute. However, he is incorrect when it comes to the Franciscans. When Francis founded the order, he was not a deacon. There were brothers who were priests. In fact, Peter, one of his first two friars, was a priest. But the order was not founded as a clerical order. Francis was ordained a deacon much later.Bold and Underline are my doing.
JReduction,
I really like you. You’re a very educated man in these matters, and I appreciate your help immensely. You’ve helped me a lot.
However, in this case, you’re wrong.
I e-mailed the Director of Vocations for the Domincan Order in Washington D.C., asking if it is my choice to continue studies to be a clerical brother, or if the outcome is outside my control. This is what he sent me back (by the way, I mentioned you briefly
"Thank you Scott for your inquiry.
St. Dominic founded the Order of Preachers as clerical, so from our foundation we have been primarily priests, though cooperator brothers share in the mission of preaching. The candidate normally applies as a clerical or cooperator brother candidate. The vocation to either is discerned with his spiritual director. Then he applies formally to the Province as clerical or cooperator brother candidate. So to answer your question, it is the candidate’s choice. The vocation as a Dominican priest or a Dominican cooperator brother are different vocations, both equally “Dominican”. I believe the Franciscan perspective on priesthood would be somewhat similar except that our foundations are slightly different: St. Dominic was a priest. St. Francis of Assisi was a deacon.
Here is an excerpt from our Fundamental Constitution:
VI. The structure of the Order as a religious society arises from its mission and fraternal communion. Since the ministry of the Word and of the sacraments of faith is a priestly office, ours is a clerical Order, whose mission the cooperator brothers, exercising in a special way the common priesthood, also share in many ways. Moreover, the total commission of the Preachers to the proclamation of the Gospel by word and work is revealed in the fact that by solemn profession they are entirely and perpetually united with the life and mission of Christ.
Hopefully also you have had the chance to look carefully at all the links on “Vocations” at www.DominicanFriars.org"
In addition, there are internal differences between the Dominicans, where there are none between the Franciscans. As he says, they are equally Dominican, but differen vocations.
For the Franciscan family, the call to be a priest can best be described using Mother Teresa’s words, “a call within a call.” That’s why you can have Franciscan superiors who are ordained and those who are not. You can have entire houses where everyone is ordained or entire houses where no one is ordained. You can have entire branches of the order where no one is ordained, such as the Franciscans of Peace, Franciscans of the Eucharist, Little Brothers of St. Francis, Franciscans of Christ the King and so forth. It was never the intention of the founder to found a clerical institute.
This is also true of other mendicant orders and monastic orders, but most have always had ordained members. Even the title “cooperator” is not found in the lexicon of other mendicant orders. It is found in many clerical religious communities that are not orders.
However, the one thing that is common to all the mendicants is the fraternal life which is so important to them, because it’s the driving force or the nurturing force of the order.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JReducation
Guest
Canonical hermits have their own laws. They are a very unique group of people. Even the Carthusians, which make up a single order, are very different from the other monastic orders. They are not part of the mendican movement nor of the Benedictine movement as are Trappists, Cistercians, Camaldolese and the modern Benedictines.Dear Scott and JR,
I am following this thread with great interest and enjoyment, especially as I am bursting with pride that one of my former pupils, now 19 years old, has just returned from a discernment retreat and announced to his parents that he is sure God is calling him to the priesthood.
JR, – if my spiritual identity wasn’t Carmelite, you could sure tempt me to the Franciscans! In your own life experience you appear to me to “be living the dream.”
Canonical hermits (under Canon #603) are required by their bishops to have health insurance. I correspond with a few non-canonical hermits, none of whom have insurance.
These latter are happily unburdened with the burdensome bureaucratic mess of filing and filling out forms if and when they are seriously ill, and genuinely enjoy the adventure of faith of holy poverty which St Francis first presented as so liberating.
As your community ministers to the poor and marginalized, your posings demonstrate that “seeking first the kingdom of God,” all things are granted you besides, as all sorts of people provide for your needs of food and care.
I am very sorry you have cancer; I will (selfishly!) pray you don’t leave us for a LONG time yet !
PS: One irreverent observation: I could never with a straight face put the letters STD after my name if I had any sort of medical background . . .
I know that a person can be a hermit without being either a Carthusian, Carmelite or Franciscan, which actually do have hermits. Though Carmelites and Franciscans have very few, unlike the Carthusians who are all hermits.
If I’m not mistaken, many hermits are simpluy referred to a diocesan hermits, because they come under the jurisdiction of the local bishop.
By the way, I do get teased a great deal abou the STD after my name, especially by those who know me from the medical community.
When we were first founded we used BoL for Brothers of Lifd. My signature was Br. Jason Richard, BoL, STD. My younger brother always called it Bacon on Lettuce with STD on the side. It was later that we went to Order of St. Francis (OSF).
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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brandy_jo
Guest
Brother JR, are you actually a physician? I met another Franciscan friar who is a physician- a very nice man. This is all surprising to me…I guess I am most familar with a community of Franciscans who do not usually study in secular fields. This is very interesting!For example, I belong to a mendican order, Franciscan, I finsihed a BS in Math, then went on for an M.Div in theology, then an STD (Doctorate) in theology. Then I was sent back to school for an M.D. and further studies in psychiatry. I was never ordained, because the community has a surplus of priests. We have at least one priest to every house and at worse one priest to every two houses. But we have a shortage of physicians and theologians. The brother with whom I share a room has an M.Div in theology and a PhD in philosophy. The one priest that we have has an M.Div in theology and an MBA. Some friars have a BA and then go on to technical schools to study mechanics, carpentry, cooking, agricultural sciences, and so forth. The combinations are countless.
J
JReducation
Guest
There are many Franciscan men who have secular degrees. I can’t recall which it was, St. Maximilian Kolbe was either an egineer or a mathematician. In any case, he had a doctorate in science and never got beyond a bachelor’s degree in theology. The one of the “patrons” of the Big Bang theory was a Franciscan physicist. There are Franciscans in many disciplines. Fr. Benedict G is a licensed clinical psychologist. His title is Dr. Groeschel. He is not a theologian. He has an M.Div in theology and a Doctorate in Clinical Psych. Fr. Joseph Mary of the Franciscan Missionaries of the Eterrnal Word is a CPA with an MBA behind his name. Cardinal Sean O’Malley is a also a Doctor of Literature and a Doctor of Theology. He has an STD and a PhD. We were in school at the same time. He’s three years ahead of me and we lived in the same house. Archbishop Chaput, another Franciscan, has an MS in Social and Political Science and a Doctorate in Theology.
There are not that many physicians, because of the cost involved; but we have some. We have many friars who teach at universities and they all have doctorates in secular sciences and the arts. If history is accurate, our first friar with a doctorate degree was St. Anthony of Padua. He had two doctorates, one in philosophy and one in theology. St. Bonaventure had two doctorates, one in theology and one in literature. Anthony and Bonaventure were both university professors. Anthony taught in his home town of Lisbon and later in Padua. Bonaventure taught at the University of Paris.
I no longer practice, because I became very ill in 2008 and I have never recovered. My ministry is the Gospel of Life. But my doctors say that I will not be around very long. I laugh at them, because they have been telling me this for two years. I would love nothing more than to go home, but God has other plans for now.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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The_Scott
Guest
I’m so sorry. I can’t imagine what courage you must have! If it means anything, I’ll pray for you and your health. God bless you Brother!
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
JReducation, thanks for sharing about how poverty is practiced among the Franciscans. I agree with you about the lilies of the field. That passage really struck me when I read it last, and I know St. Francis lived it thoroughly. According to what you’ve said, Lady Poverty still watches over her own and tenderly nurtures them, through the support of generous souls or through other means, whenever there is a need. Thanks be to our generous God .
I’m focused a good deal on the priesthood because I’m discerning a possible vocation to the priesthood, at the same time as discerning a definite calling to a religious order.
.I’m focused a good deal on the priesthood because I’m discerning a possible vocation to the priesthood, at the same time as discerning a definite calling to a religious order.
Y
Young_Thinker
Guest
I am sorry for your illness, Br. J.R. I was curious: do mendicants generally not health-insurance, or is that phenomenon most among Franciscans?
J
JReducation
Guest
It varies from one obedience to another. The more primitive Franciscans and other religious families too do not have it. I’m thinking of a few:
Friars of the Renewal
Franciscans of the Ancient Observance.
Franciscan Brothers of Life
Order of Poor Friars,
Missionaries of Charity
Missioanries of the Poor
All of these communities are mendicants. I believe that it is more common among mendicants. I know it’s not universal.
I would add that medical insurance is not a common thing. In some countries there is not such a thing. And in some countries you don’t need it. They have socialized medicine. I know that my brothers in South America have access to all kinds of healthcare. They have many more free medical services than we have.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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