The Complete Idiot's Guide to Religious Orders?

[Young_Thinker]

It varies from one obedience to another. The more primitive Franciscans and other religious families too do not have it. I’m thinking of a few:

Friars of the Renewal
Franciscans of the Ancient Observance.
Franciscan Brothers of Life
Order of Poor Friars,
Missionaries of Charity
Missioanries of the Poor

All of these communities are mendicants. I believe that it is more common among mendicants. I know it’s not universal.

I would add that medical insurance is not a common thing. In some countries there is not such a thing. And in some countries you don’t need it. They have socialized medicine. I know that my brothers in South America have access to all kinds of healthcare. They have many more free medical services than we have.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you for the information.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Regardless if a group of mendicants are a clerical order (such as the Dominicians or us Carmelites) one is still called forward for ordination by the superior/community.

We have had brothers who are on the ordination track who the superior/community have not called forward to orders after they have petitioned for such.

Also there are mendicants who are hermits. We Carmelites started out as an order of hermits and we still have hermits today that are Carmelites. I would not say that they are not mendicants because then they would not be part of the O.Carm. order. This is a tension that has been present within the order for a long time, sometimes it is more sometimes it is less.

 

[JReducation]

Regardless if a group of mendicants are a clerical order (such as the Dominicians or us Carmelites) one is still called forward for ordination by the superior/community.

We have had brothers who are on the ordination track who the superior/community have not called forward to orders after they have petitioned for such.

Also there are mendicants who are hermits. We Carmelites started out as an order of hermits and we still have hermits today that are Carmelites. I would not say that they are not mendicants because then they would not be part of the O.Carm. order. This is a tension that has been present within the order for a long time, sometimes it is more sometimes it is less.

I would imagine that the Carmelite hermits would be like the Franciscan hermits. See if this applies. St. Francis wrote four rules: friars, nuns, seculars (not lay people alone), and hermits. But the rule for hermits is very interesting. They are not a separate entity.

Where the friars, nuns and seculars are completely autonomous by Francis’ design, meaning that we are not associated with each other, nor have the same way of life, the hermits had to belong to one of the other three orders. The Franciscan hermits must be friars, nuns, or seculars. They must profess to follow one of the three rules and be under the jurisdiction of one of the superiors general who in turn places them under the jurisdiction of one of the provincial superiors.

The rule for hermits says that the major superior must visit them and provide for their needs. It also says that the major superior must assign two brothers or sisters to care for the hermit. In reality, the hermit lives in a community of three, but never sees the other two except for the sacraments, if the other two happen to be priests. If they are not, they must find a priest to bring the sacraments to the three of them.

Our hermits live isolated from the world, but not from the order, which ever one they belong to. That is not allowed. Let’s say that a friar is called to be a hermit, he is not cut-off from the friars. Therefore, he’s still a mendicant. If a Poor Clare is called to be a hermit she is not cut off from the nuns. She is still an enclosed nun. If a Secular Franciscans or Regular Franciscan is called to be a hermit, he or she is not cut off from his/her community. He is still a secular or a regular, depending on the case.

There is an interesting note too, if the Secular Franciscan is a diocesan priest and he wishes to be a hermit, he must get the permission of both the bishop of his diocese and his Franciscan superior.

By creating such a web that the individual Franciscan remains a part of his or her order, the hermit never loses his place among his brothers or sisters. He remains a mendicant, if he’s a friar, a monastic, if she’s a nun, a secular brother if he’s a secular mand or a regular brother if he is a Third Order Friar (TOR).

We do not have many hermits, but there are quite a few. When I say this I’m speaking about the entire Franciscan family which as of 2009 had 1.7 million brothers and sisters aroiund the world. There may be about 1,000 Franciscan hermits.

Is this how the Carmelites keep their hermits connected to the friars, nuns, seculars, sisters or other branches of the Carmelite family?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I would imagine that the Carmelite hermits would be like the Franciscan hermits. See if this applies. St. Francis wrote four rules: friars, nuns, seculars (not lay people alone), and hermits. But the rule for hermits is very interesting. They are not a separate entity.

Where the friars, nuns and seculars are completely autonomous by Francis’ design, meaning that we are not associated with each other, nor have the same way of life, the hermits had to belong to one of the other three orders. The Franciscan hermits must be friars, nuns, or seculars. They must profess to follow one of the three rules and be under the jurisdiction of one of the superiors general who in turn places them under the jurisdiction of one of the provincial superiors.

The rule for hermits says that the major superior must visit them and provide for their needs. It also says that the major superior must assign two brothers or sisters to care for the hermit. In reality, the hermit lives in a community of three, but never sees the other two except for the sacraments, if the other two happen to be priests. If they are not, they must find a priest to bring the sacraments to the three of them.

Our hermits live isolated from the world, but not from the order, which ever one they belong to. That is not allowed. Let’s say that a friar is called to be a hermit, he is not cut-off from the friars. Therefore, he’s still a mendicant. If a Poor Clare is called to be a hermit she is not cut off from the nuns. She is still an enclosed nun. If a Secular Franciscans or Regular Franciscan is called to be a hermit, he or she is not cut off from his/her community. He is still a secular or a regular, depending on the case.

There is an interesting note too, if the Secular Franciscan is a diocesan priest and he wishes to be a hermit, he must get the permission of both the bishop of his diocese and his Franciscan superior.

By creating such a web that the individual Franciscan remains a part of his or her order, the hermit never loses his place among his brothers or sisters. He remains a mendicant, if he’s a friar, a monastic, if she’s a nun, a secular brother if he’s a secular mand or a regular brother if he is a Third Order Friar (TOR).

We do not have many hermits, but there are quite a few. When I say this I’m speaking about the entire Franciscan family which as of 2009 had 1.7 million brothers and sisters aroiund the world. There may be about 1,000 Franciscan hermits.

Is this how the Carmelites keep their hermits connected to the friars, nuns, seculars, sisters or other branches of the Carmelite family?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I believe this is so but there is only one rule and one set of constitutions. The hermits fall under the prior general rather than being a part of the province that they live in, at least the two groups of male hermits I know of do. I am unsure of where the two groups of female hermits (that I am aware of) fall into.

 

[Saint_Macarius]

Canonical hermits have their own laws. They are a very unique group of people. Even the Carthusians, which make up a single order, are very different from the other monastic orders. They are not part of the mendican movement nor of the Benedictine movement as are Trappists, Cistercians, Camaldolese and the modern Benedictines.

I know that a person can be a hermit without being either a Carthusian, Carmelite or Franciscan, which actually do have hermits. Though Carmelites and Franciscans have very few, unlike the Carthusians who are all hermits.

If I’m not mistaken, many hermits are simpluy referred to a diocesan hermits, because they come under the jurisdiction of the local bishop.

By the way, I do get teased a great deal abou the STD after my name, especially by those who know me from the medical community.

When we were first founded we used BoL for Brothers of Lifd. My signature was Br. Jason Richard, BoL, STD. My younger brother always called it Bacon on Lettuce with STD on the side. It was later that we went to Order of St. Francis (OSF).

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Just FYI Brother,
OCSO have hermits and very few OSB and OCist have hermits as well. In the case of the OCSO hermit, they must receive consent from the Abbot and Abbot SG or local Bishop (but not both are needed, thus the bishop can effectively have “no say” in the matter) to enter into hermitage. In the case for OCSO, usually the Abbot appeals to have a hermitage and then council or Abbot SG grants the local Abbot to chose who to allow to become one. Most OCSO hermits have been choir monks for over a decade and they usually return to the monastery for a weekend once every six months or so. In the case for OCSO, hermits are almost always ordained (unless they’re Trappistine, in that case usually a priest visits once a week).
Also, one could argue that OCarth are Benedictine, albeit most wouldn’t admit to it, as all of the founders for OCarth (or at least the major ones) were OSB.

 

[JReducation]

I believe this is so but there is only one rule and one set of constitutions. The hermits fall under the prior general rather than being a part of the province that they live in, at least the two groups of male hermits I know of do. I am unsure of where the two groups of female hermits (that I am aware of) fall into.

I guess your system is a little simpler than our own, because the Carmelite family has only one rule. If I understand the legal aspect correctly, every Carmelite community is actually in some way associated with the friars, even the Secular Carmelites.

We don’t have that. Francis wanted each order to be autonomous and have its own way of life. Each has a rule, constitutions, government, and modus procedendi (manul of customs). We share a common father, because every superior is in the line of succession back to Francis.

For example, hermits in my community would fall under the OFM Cap Minister Provincial, because we come from the OFM Cap tradition. But hermits up the road, where the Poor Clares are, would fall under the PC abbess, not under the friars. They would live the PC rule, not the Rule of the Friars Minor. Across the state we have the SFO, Secular Franciscan Order, those hermits fall under their Minister Provincial, who falls under the General Minister of the SFO.

We’re OSF (Order of St. Francis). All religious in the OSF fall under one of the six Franciscan obediences: OFM, OFM Cap, OFM Conv, PC, TOR or SFO. My particular community, is a off-shoot of the OFM Cap. If we had hermits, that hermit would be bound to the OFM Cap Provincial.

Yes, we are confusing. LOL But we’re also very autonomous and cute and cuddly to boot.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Saint_Macarius]

I no longer practice, because I became very ill in 2008 and I have never recovered. My ministry is the Gospel of Life. But my doctors say that I will not be around very long. I laugh at them, because they have been telling me this for two years. I would love nothing more than to go home, but God has other plans for now.

Thank you for your ministry. I have learned much from just reading your posts.

 

[JReducation]

Just FYI Brother,
OCSO have hermits and very few OSB and OCist have hermits as well. In the case of the OCSO hermit, they must receive consent from the Abbot and Abbot SG or local Bishop (but not both are needed, thus the bishop can effectively have “no say” in the matter) to enter into hermitage. In the case for OCSO, usually the Abbot appeals to have a hermitage and then council or Abbot SG grants the local Abbot to chose who to allow to become one. Most OCSO hermits have been choir monks for over a decade and they usually return to the monastery for a weekend once every six months or so. In the case for OCSO, hermits are almost always ordained (unless they’re Trappistine, in that case usually a priest visits once a week).
Also, one could argue that OCarth are Benedictine, albeit most wouldn’t admit to it, as all of the founders for OCarth (or at least the major ones) were OSB.

I know that the Cistercian and Benedictines have hermits. The reason that the Carthusians are not part of the Benedictine family is because they do not follow the Rule of St. Benedict. They have a very interesting arrangement with the Holy See.

The actually live more like the early Carmelites with the exception that the early Carmelites were not clerical. They became clerical when they came to Europe. The Carthusians have always been clerical. You can’t be a hermit unless you’re a priest. The Benedictine and Carmelite rules do not require Holy Orders to be a hermit. This will vary from place to place. For the Carhusians, it’s essential to be a priest in order to be a hermit. What I don’t know is whether there are such creatures as Carthusian nuns. I’ll have to get permission to Google that.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I had always assumed that the Carthusians were Bennies.

Thanks for the info, sir.

 

[Aunt_Raven]

Carthusians were founded by St Bruno, not St Benedict.

St Francis made excellent provision for hermits which might arise in his order–I hadn’t known he had done this, but he makes it easy for Franciscan hermits to have their solitude and maintain their family bonds. Other orders don’t make it so easy !

There is a respected quarterly newsletter for English-speaking hermits around the world, “Ravens’ Bread” --and a few years ago the editors ran a survey to see how many of the Catholic hermits belonged to religious orders, how many were Diocesian, and how many were non-canonical lay hermits.

Then they asked the “order hermits” how difficult it was to get permission to be a hermit after the vocation had been revealed after many years of community life --interestingly, men religous found it easier to be acknowleged by superiors as hermits and maintain connection with their community. Women religious generally were laicisied or else ex-claustrated (not the same thing) and then proceeded “on their own”, and the superiors seem to feel threatened by the request of a religious to transition to the eremitical vocation, such that permission was withheld for many years to test the validity of the petitioner-- some few were never given permission until they appealed through their confessors to Rome.

The Discalced Carmelites (OCD) don’t “do” hermits. The Ancient Order (O. Carm.) Carmelite hermits in North America are under obedience to the Prior Provincial, who is also in charge of the second order (cloistered nuns) He visits them periodically to see that they are OK and have what they need for their vocation, though they must support themselves by their own labours. Most Carmelite hermits are solitary; there are only thee Carmelite lauras (groups of hermits in separate cells) I know of in the USA: one male, one female, and one mixed. The mixed one is the Spiritual Life Instutute in Colorado, which now has a new foundation in rural Ireland. As was said in the earliest postings, those Carmelite monks in Wyoming are not affiliated with either branch of the Carmelite Order.

The primitive rule of Carmel is so short and simple that many Diocesian hermits find it useful as a rule, or as basis for an adapted rule. It’s online if you Google for it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The Discalced Carmelites (OCD) don’t “do” hermits. The Ancient Order (O. Carm.) Carmelite hermits in North America are under obedience to the Prior Provincial, who is also in charge of the second order (cloistered nuns) He visits them periodically to see that they are OK and have what they need for their vocation, though they must support themselves by their own labours. Most Carmelite hermits are solitary; there are only thee Carmelite lauras (groups of hermits in separate cells) I know of in the USA: one male, one female, and one mixed. The mixed one is the Spiritual Life Instutute in Colorado, which now has a new foundation in rural Ireland. As was said in the earliest postings, those Carmelite monks in Wyoming are not affiliated with either branch of the Carmelite Order.

The male hermits of the O.Carm. in North America are under the Prior General not the Prior Provincial.

 

[JReducation]

Carthusians were founded by St Bruno, not St Benedict.

St Francis made excellent provision for hermits which might arise in his order–I hadn’t known he had done this, but he makes it easy for Franciscan hermits to have their solitude and maintain their family bonds. Other orders don’t make it so easy !

St. Francis was the master of simplicity made complex.

Our way of life is very easy to follow, but our organization is difficult for most people to understand. For example, as you said, he made it very easy for any Franciscan to be a hermit by writing a rule just for them and binding the order to it.

He also made the order very easy to organize. As you said, the Carmelite nuns are under the care of the Carmelite Friars and the Provincial must visit them.

In the Franciscan family, the Poor Clares were never under the care of the friars. They were give a rule of their own, an abbess, and goodbye. To ensure that there would be no dependence, Francis asked the pope for an encyclical that stated that the two orders have no obligation to assist each other or care for each other. We do not visit the nuns, other than a fraternal visit. We may not opine in their affairs. The Poor Clare abbess is almost like a bishop. They don’t even answer to each other. There is no superior general. Every abbess is the final stop for her monastery. Unlike the friars, they have no provinces or general superiors. Once an abbey is erected, it is no longer attached to the abbey from where it came.

Francis also made it easy for the Secular Franciscans to be autonomous by giving them their own rule and their own superiors. We do not visit them, organize them or oversee them. We’re not even allowed to speak at their meetings unless they give us permission to do so.

There is a “coiuncil” of superiors general where the different superiors general of the friars and the one superior general of the seculars meet. The Poor Clares are not on this council. But this council does not ahve any authority. It’s for the purpose of cooperation between the three orders.

Our system can best be visualize as a pie in three slices with Francis being the central figure.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Aunt_Raven]

Bro David,

I stand corrected calling the Prior General the Prior Provincial. (I thought the Prior General was Fr Joseph Chalmers or his current successor in Rome) Is the Prior General still Fr J-B Webber? If ever I saw a superior cheerfully working himself to death for those in his care, it is he.

I notice you are a Byzantine Catholic and a Carmelite in or near Tucson: COOL. Do you write icons?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Bro David,

I stand corrected calling the Prior General the Prior Provincial. (I thought the Prior General was Fr Joseph Chalmers or his current successor in Rome) Is the Prior General still Fr J-B Webber? If ever I saw a superior cheerfully working himself to death for those in his care, it is he.

The Prior General is in Rome, he head the whole order. The current Prior General is Fr. Fernando Romeral.

I notice you are a Byzantine Catholic and a Carmelite in or near Tucson: COOL. Do you write icons?

No I do not write icons. My talents do not include artistic ability unfortunately

I am in Tucson at our high school, Salpointe Catholic High School…