The Concept of a Coming Messiah

[Valke2]

I support Israel, and I think that it has a right to exist. I do not see it as the promised nation of the Bible.

Israel, in my mind, is a state formed from a reaction to an event where men decided that it was needed again. Yes, it was promised to Israel and his children for ever, but that is only a small reason why I think it should exist.

I always thought that a Zionist held that position strictly on religious grounds?

There’s “political zionism” and “religoius zionism” and probably a few other “zionisms” I can’t think of right now.
Herzl was not a religoius zionist. Rabbik Kook was. You can google him for his position on Israel.

 

[ralphinal]

There’s “political zionism” and “religoius zionism” and probably a few other “zionisms” I can’t think of right now.
Herzl was not a religoius zionist. Rabbik Kook was. You can google him for his position on Israel.

Which one would you be? Which one would I be, if I hold that Israel needs to exist but not for anything related to religion?

 

[Valke2]

Which one would you be? Which one would I be, if I hold that Israel needs to exist but not for anything related to religion?

That sounds like you would be a political zionist. Which is what most of the early proponents of the modern state of Israel would be.

I’m a political zionist who believes God has nothing against the state of Israel and that He isn’t done with us yet.

There’s a fast day call Tish a’bv where we read from Lamentations and fast all day remembering the destruction of the Temple and the dispersion of the Jewish people.
Some Jews, myself included, fast only 1/2 the day because we recognize the miracle of the modern state of Israel.

 

[Ben_Masada]

So, Trust God, no
Trust ourselves, yes

Trust God but don’t expect to live on Him as if we are still in the Garden of Eden. There, the method was that God would search for us, so to speak. When we acquired the knowledge of good and evil with God’s help, we were shown the road to the real method: To search for God in the greater world out there. That’s what we have been doing up to this day. Evolution was the purpose of God, and not stagnation and helplessness.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

And Jews have waited nearly the same amount of time to rebuild the Temple…

I was waiting for that one. Believe me, I was. Politics my friend. This time we returned too political and afraid to be ourselves. This time when we returned, we brought with us the fear for the Gentiles.

But what is it of “the same amount of time?” It has been only 60 years. What is this talk of two thousand years? Two thousand years we had to be in exile. This time does not count for the rebuilding of the Temple. The counting of this time started in 1948. Give us a little longer and perhaps you will see it yourself.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

15… O Lord, my helper, and my redeemer.

 

[ralphinal]

I was waiting for that one. Believe me, I was. Politics my friend. This time we returned too political and afraid to be ourselves. This time when we returned, we brought with us the fear for the Gentiles.

But what is it of “the same amount of time?” It has been only 60 years. What is this talk of two thousand years? Two thousand years we had to be in exile. This time does not count for the rebuilding of the Temple. The counting of this time started in 1948. Give us a little longer and perhaps you will see it yourself.

Ben:

If the current US administration has its way, Israel may end up in exile again.

It would seem to me that the ideal time to rebuild would have been right after the 6 Days War, when Israel had established itself as a regional power, and WAY before any of her enemies caught up as far as weapons go.

 

[Ben_Masada]

If the current US administration has its way, Israel may end up in exile again.

It would seem to me that the ideal time to rebuild would have been right after the 6 Days War, when Israel had established itself as a regional power, and WAY before any of her enemies caught up as far as weapons go.

Finally, Ralphinal, I agree with you not only in every line but also with every word of this post of yours. We lost our golden opportunity after the Six Days War.
In fact, an Arab here told me the very same thing. And that another chance like that will never return. And you are right too about a pending exile if we don’t set things right with
God and with ourselves while we still have time. I think that this time instead of leaving the Diaspora, we brought the Diaspora with us. And for this we will still have to pay very dear.(Isa. 1:18,19)

Ben:

 

[ralphinal]

Finally, Ralphinal, I agree with you not only in every line but also with every word of this post of yours. We lost our golden opportunity after the Six Days War.
In fact, an Arab here told me the very same thing. And that another chance like that will never return. And you are right too about a pending exile if we don’t set things right with
God and with ourselves while we still have time. I think that this time instead of leaving the Diaspora, we brought the Diaspora with us. And for this we will still have to pay very dear.(Isa. 1:18,19)

Ben:

I think that spiritually, Israel is more like it was in the at times in the OT: a group that is pure of belief, a group that has no belief, and a group that has the belief of the area (in this case, the world). Now, it is hard to get those with no faith to form one. However, those who are following the world can be taught of the Truth of God. The only question is if it is possible for the current situation to do that. Here is what I mean. In Israel, there is no “moderate” class of Judaism. You are either WAY over there or WAY over here. IN poker terms, you are either all in or sitting out. Now, God can still convert their hearts, if they will allow Him to. I think that if a more moderate form could gain a foot-hold, giving another step towards true devotion, it would help.

I pray that the current President does not turn his back on Israel. If he does, it will show a lack of understanding of Middle Eastern Affairs and common sense that is painful to see.

 

[swariffin]

I think that spiritually, Israel is more like it was in the at times in the OT: a group that is pure of belief, a group that has no belief, and a group that has the belief of the area (in this case, the world). Now, it is hard to get those with no faith to form one. However, those who are following the world can be taught of the Truth of God. The only question is if it is possible for the current situation to do that. Here is what I mean. In Israel, there is no “moderate” class of Judaism. You are either WAY over there or WAY over here. IN poker terms, you are either all in or sitting out. Now, God can still convert their hearts, if they will allow Him to. I think that if a more moderate form could gain a foot-hold, giving another step towards true devotion, it would help.

I pray that the current President does not turn his back on Israel. If he does, it will show a lack of understanding of Middle Eastern Affairs and common sense that is painful to see.

I agree. I do hope to see that the Jews can live peacefully with their neighboring countries, without having any fear that a rocket may fall and explode in anybody’s backyard.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I think that spiritually, Israel is more like it was in the at times in the OT: a group that is pure of belief, a group that has no belief, and a group that has the belief of the area (in this case, the world). Now, it is hard to get those with no faith to form one. However, those who are following the world can be taught of the Truth of God. The only question is if it is possible for the current situation to do that. Here is what I mean. In Israel, there is no “moderate” class of Judaism. You are either WAY over there or WAY over here. IN poker terms, you are either all in or sitting out. Now, God can still convert their hearts, if they will allow Him to. I think that if a more moderate form could gain a foot-hold, giving another step towards true devotion, it would help.

I pray that the current President does not turn his back on Israel. If he does, it will show a lack of understanding of Middle Eastern Affairs and common sense that is painful to see.

When you say that “Now, God can still convert our hearts if we allow Him to,” you are saying that God is either not powerful or that we have no freewill. We have freewill. We are the ones with the power to convert ourselves to God. It’s not of God the job to change man’s nature. Otherwise, we would not have to give an account for our wrongdoings in terms of suffering the consequences.

Ben:

 

[Thing]

Ben Masada:

Thing:

Your explanation that Job was talking about the return of his health makes no sense, as the “…and not another” then has no meaning, - in your interpretation.

That’s how enlightened people interpret metaphors and allegories.

What was the metaphor, or allegory, meaning of ‘…and not another’.

26 And I shall be clothed again with my skin, and in my flesh I will see my God. 27 Whom I myself shall see, and my eyes shall behold, and not another: this my hope is laid up in my bosom.

Enlightened people are not satisfied to brush things aside.

 

[Ben_Masada]

What was the metaphor, or allegory, meaning of ‘…and not another’.

26 And I shall be clothed again with my skin, and in my flesh I will see my God. 27 Whom I myself shall see, and my eyes shall behold, and not another: this my hope is laid up in my bosom.

Enlightened people are not satisfied to brush things aside.

“I shall be clothed again with my skin” means, I will be restored to my condition of before. “And in my flesh I will see my God” means I won’t die from this one
condition. “Whom myself see” means in life; for to be in healthy condition is to be in good terms with God. “And my eyes shall behold and not another” means that he would experience life again by being cured of his condition. And “This my hope is laid up in my bosom” means that he was certain of that and faithful about his hope, which was irreversible. That’s all. The whole book of Job cannot be understood literally.

Ben

 

[Thing]

“I shall be clothed again with my skin” means, I will be restored to my condition of before. “And in my flesh I will see my God” means I won’t die from this one
condition. “Whom myself see” means in life; for to be in healthy condition is to be in good terms with God. “And my eyes shall behold and not another” means that he would experience life again by being cured of his condition. And “This my hope is laid up in my bosom” means that he was certain of that and faithful about his hope, which was irreversible. That’s all. The whole book of Job cannot be understood literally.

Ben

What was the metaphor, or allegory, meaning of ‘…and not another’. You must explain.

26 And I shall be clothed again with my skin, and in my flesh I will see my God. 27 Whom I myself shall see, and my eyes shall behold, and not another: this my hope is laid up in my bosom.

Enlightened people are not satisfied to brush things aside.

“And my eyes shall behold and not another” means that he would experience life again by being cured of his condition.

---

Makes no sense whatsoever.

“And in my flesh I will see my God” means I won’t die from this one condition.

What makes you think it means that. For example, there are only two places that I know of in the Old Testament which use the phrase ‘in my flesh’, and neither uses of the phrase can have the meaning you apply to them.

The most obvious meaning of the phrase which fits both uses is that ‘in my flesh’ means ‘as himself’.
As in ‘As myself/In myself’ I will see my God.
Or, in the only other use of that phrase;
8 For my loins are filled with illusions; and there is no health ‘in my flesh’. 9 I am afflicted and humbled exceedingly.
As in, there is no health ‘in me’, or, ‘in myself/my person’.

Neither was Job too optimistic about recovering his health;

16 I have done with hope, I shall now live no longer: spare me, for my days are nothing. 17 What is a man that thou shouldst magnify him? or why dost thou set thy heart upon him? 18 Thou visitest him early in the morning, and thou provest him suddenly. 19 How long wilt thou not spare me, nor suffer me to swallow down my spittle? 20 I have sinned: what shall I do to thee, O keeper of men? why hast thou set me opposite to thee, and I am become burdensome to myself?

21 Why dost thou not remove my sin, and why dost thou not take away my iniquity? Behold now I shall sleep in the dust: and if thou seek me in the morning, I shall not be.

 

[Ben_Masada]

What was the metaphor, or allegory, meaning of ‘…and not another’. You must explain.

26 And I shall be clothed again with my skin, and in my flesh I will see my God. 27 Whom I myself shall see, and my eyes shall behold, and not another: this my hope is laid up in my bosom.

Enlightened people are not satisfied to brush things aside.

---

Makes no sense whatsoever.

What makes you think it means that. For example, there are only two places that I know of in the Old Testament which use the phrase ‘in my flesh’, and neither uses of the phrase can have the meaning you apply to them.

The most obvious meaning of the phrase which fits both uses is that ‘in my flesh’ means ‘as himself’.
As in ‘As myself/In myself’ I will see my God.
Or, in the only other use of that phrase;
8 For my loins are filled with illusions; and there is no health ‘in my flesh’. 9 I am afflicted and humbled exceedingly.
As in, there is no health ‘in me’, or, ‘in myself/my person’.

Neither was Job too optimistic about recovering his health;

16 I have done with hope, I shall now live no longer: spare me, for my days are nothing. 17 What is a man that thou shouldst magnify him? or why dost thou set thy heart upon him? 18 Thou visitest him early in the morning, and thou provest him suddenly. 19 How long wilt thou not spare me, nor suffer me to swallow down my spittle? 20 I have sinned: what shall I do to thee, O keeper of men? why hast thou set me opposite to thee, and I am become burdensome to myself?

21 Why dost thou not remove my sin, and why dost thou not take away my iniquity? Behold now I shall sleep in the dust: and if thou seek me in the morning, I shall not be.

**What’s the matter? Do you want me to repeat what I wrote above? Read it with the eyes of your mind. If you read it only with the attitude that you want to see, you will never be able to see the truth.

Ben: **

 

[Thing]

**What’s the matter? Do you want me to repeat what I wrote above? Read it with the eyes of your mind. If you read it only with the attitude that you want to see, you will never be able to see the truth.

Ben: **

Ditto. :yawn:

 

[ralphinal]

When you say that “Now, God can still convert our hearts if we allow Him to,” you are saying that God is either not powerful or that we have no freewill. We have freewill. We are the ones with the power to convert ourselves to God. It’s not of God the job to change man’s nature. Otherwise, we would not have to give an account for our wrongdoings in terms of suffering the consequences.

Ben:

NOt exactly. Man is not what man was created to be. We enjoy sin. We thrive on it. We choose to turn from God. Only God can turn our hearts back. I assure you that there is no one who posts on this site that will never sin from this day until they die. All that we can do is to repent when we sin and strive not to sin again. God will give us the grace to resist it.

 

[Ben_Masada]

NOt exactly. Man is not what man was created to be. We enjoy sin. We thrive on it. We choose to turn from God. Only God can turn our hearts back. I assure you that there is no one who posts on this site that will never sin from this day until they die. All that we can do is to repent when we sin and strive not to sin again. God will give us the grace to resist it.

**What you are saying is that we are puppets of God and not human being created with freewill.

Ben: **

 

[ralphinal]

**What you are saying is that we are puppets of God and not human being created with freewill.

Ben: **

No, nothing of the sort. What I am saying is that our will is more likely to be focused on sin and not on God. I really don’t see how you are missing that. We need God’s help to avoid sin every time.

 

[Ben_Masada]

No, nothing of the sort. What I am saying is that our will is more likely to be focused on sin and not on God. I really don’t see how you are missing that. We need God’s help to avoid sin every time.

**If we seem to you to be more focused on sin than on God, it’s because we have chosen to live that way. I really don’t see how you cannot understand such a simple concept.

Ben: **