The Confusion of Catholicism

[guanophore]

Oh gosh, another harsh judgment! I am perfectly willing to admit that I am cowardly and pragmatic, but it seems wrong to accuse others of the same. How could either of us know?

Talk to them. Ask them.

Although, as time has gone on, I’m not there as a hedge anymore. I’m there for my family as my main purpose at this point. I hope that God will not judge me harshly for accompanying my family. I don’t participate or anything, but sometimes I think it is wrong to even be there. I hope not!

No, it is not wrong to attend Mass as an unbeliever. In fact, to go to support your family is an honorable deed.

 

[guanophore]

The self-excommunication doesn’t release one from the obligation to attend mass, donate money, etc. It does release me from the obligation to receive communion once per year.

I am curious to understand your definition of what it means to be excommunicated. In such a state, a person is not to receive communion.

If you cannot embrace your obligation to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, why on earth would you care about any other obligations, like attending Mass or donating $?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

It is a good idea to do this, since many people (often Protestants) have been very misinformed about what “Catholic” is, and need to be informed.

How do they know that she knows?

This seems like an absurd notion. It presupposes that what is write and wrong is somehow consistent with human “intuition”. Obedience involves compliance to what may be non-intuitive because our intuition is not the source of eternal truth.

The fact that we must do things that are disagreable is a reflection of our human nature. We are not oriented toward having joy in doing all that is right and good.

I mean to say that some Catholics have this idea that if something is non-intuitive or disagreeable it must be Godly. This doesn’t necessarily imply that intuition or agreeability are the foundations of morality! By denying that non-intuitive = good, I am not also affirming that intuitive = good.

I think morality is objective and external. Maybe that is common ground?

Such a statement presupposes that, if a Catholic must do something non-intuitive or disagreeable, it one has a childlike concept of God and thinks that God is “mean”. This in itself seems to be a childlike presuposition!

I don’t understand what you have said here. PRMerger seemed to think that a good metric for whether a religion is true or not is to see if it contradicts our desires and intuitions. That made me chuckle because I recognized the mode of thought, since I used to think that same way! I used to harbor suspicion against anything enjoyable or intuitive, thinking that it must be wrong some way or other.

I posited that this mode of thought is a hold over from childhood. Maybe it isn’t.

I have another idea. The eucharist is deeply non-intuitive. A man holds up and object and says “Behold (the lamb of) God!” Wow…our intuitions scream against this, I think. Maybe not. So, in order to accept that God is an object, we learn to suppress our intuitions, and we associate that suppression with Godliness or holiness or the sacred. Is that a better explanation?

I do agree that developing an attitude that, when something denies our natural instincts it is Godly is childlike. I find nothing “spiritual” about it.

I think people carry an immature perspective no matter what their faith pursuasion.

OK I can agree with that.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I am curious to understand your definition of what it means to be excommunicated. In such a state, a person is not to receive communion.

If you cannot embrace your obligation to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, why on earth would you care about any other obligations, like attending Mass or donating $?

You’re totally right! Thanks for helping me realize that I shouldn’t care. If I can’t manage to keep all the big laws perfectly, why should I care about what some dusty book detailing all the rules of excommunication says? It makes no sense. Thanks for freeing me.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Catholic faith is objective, which implies there is an object to our faith. Maybe, Jesus Christ is the object of Catholic faith? Of course! Christ present in the Eucharist, is many things, including recognition of the objectiveness of our faith. It’s not just a nice idea that is imagined. Though certainly, many (if not all) struggle with an objective faith and default to a subjective faith, usually subject to personal preference. Or to be more blunt, to make God in one’s own image rather than accepting what the object of our faith has revealed about Himself.

Realizing the subjective aspect of one’s own faith can be addressed in many ways. Ignore it. View subjectivity as an insurmountable impediment to truth, therefore all faith is false. Or, we can recognize our weakness as a need, that is filled by truth itself. Truth, being a Person, Jesus Christ. Self perfection is an illusion and a denial of our need for God.

The idea of a perfect Catholic in the pew is, well, un-Catholic! All belong at Mass, no matter where they are in their journey towards Truth.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Catholic faith is objective, which implies there is an object to our faith. Maybe, Jesus Christ is the object of Catholic faith? Of course! Christ present in the Eucharist, is many things, including recognition of the objectiveness of our faith. It’s not just a nice idea that is imagined. Though certainly, many (if not all) struggle with an objective faith and default to a subjective faith, usually subject to personal preference. Or to be more blunt, to make God in one’s own image rather than accepting what the object of our faith has revealed about Himself.

Realizing the subjective aspect of one’s own faith can be addressed in many ways. Ignore it. View subjectivity as an insurmountable impediment to truth, therefore all faith is false. Or, we can recognize our weakness as a need, that is filled by truth itself. Truth, being a Person, Jesus Christ. Self perfection is an illusion and a denial of our need for God.

The idea of a perfect Catholic in the pew is, well, un-Catholic! All belong at Mass, no matter where they are in their journey towards Truth.

If I change just a few words, I could have written the same thing!

Here:

My faith is objective, which implies there is an object to my faith. Maybe, God is the object of my faith? Of course! Godliness is present everywhere, is many things, including recognition of the objectiveness of our faith. It’s not just a nice idea that is imagined. Though certainly, many (if not all) struggle with an objective faith and default to a subjective faith, usually subject to personal preference. Or to be more blunt, to make God in one’s own image rather than accepting what the object of our faith has revealed about Himself.

Realizing the subjective aspect of one’s own faith can be addressed in many ways. Ignore it. View subjectivity as an insurmountable impediment to truth, therefore all faith is false. Or, we can recognize our weakness as a need, that is filled by truth itself. Truth, being a Person, God. Self perfection is an illusion and a denial of our need for God.

The idea of a perfect human anywhere is, well, un-human! All belong everywhere, no matter where they are in their journey towards Truth.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… Having been following this discussion closely I was curious when the topic of EENS came up, and so I went to CA’s article on the topic.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

After reading it a number of times I must say that I’m still confused. On the one hand it seems to clearly indicate that for most people, me included, the only path to salvation is through the Catholic Church. On the other hand it leaves open the possibility of salvation for those who are “Invincibly Ignorant”, or as the article puts it, “innocently ignorant”. This could be construed as meaning that everyone, regardless of their religious affiliation, can be saved. …

• Please see my post 184 (posted approx. 2 days ago) for my view on this. I.e, if it wasn’t unpacked you’re “innocently ignorant”, and if it wasn’t unpacked enough you may well have (or not have) embraced it as far as it was unpacked and as for any aspects of it beyond that you may be “innocently ignorant”
• Mr Blackburn doesn’t explain “salvation” or “salus”. I don’t think he unpacks Jn 6:54 properly
• On the other hand to be fair to him he does admit that neither St Paul nor the Church generally needs express an opinion as to how likely different categories of people are to be saved, but merely to admit it is a possibility

 

[PRmerger]

Actually, I’m not so sure that this is true. Having been following this discussion closely I was curious when the topic of EENS came up, and so I went to CA’s article on the topic.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

After reading it a number of times I must say that I’m still confused. On the one hand it seems to clearly indicate that for most people, me included, the only path to salvation is through the Catholic Church. On the other hand it leaves open the possibility of salvation for those who are “Invincibly Ignorant”, or as the article puts it, “innocently ignorant”. This could be construed as meaning that everyone, regardless of their religious affiliation, can be saved. Atheists can be saved. Paganists can be saved. Satanists can be saved.

One line in the article stands out for me, “But once a person comes to know the truth, he must embrace it or he will be culpable of rejecting it.” There’s a difference between hearing the truth and knowing the truth. So even though I may be intimately familiar with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I can’t honestly say that I know it to be true. So am I “innocently ignorant”?

This seems odd to me, that an article meant to clarify the meaning of EENS, does no such thing. All the article did was leave me more confused than I was before. Who exactly qualifies as “innocently ignorant”?

The Catholic Church does not govern minutiae. Nor does it have any insight into the status of your heart/mind/soul.

So whether you fall in the category of “invincibly ignorant” or “willfully ignoring” is for you to discern.

That’s above the CC’s paygrade.

 

[o_mlly]

Is this specific to Catholicism rather than Protestantism?

Non-Catholics have a “certain, though imperfect, communion” with the true church." But this attitude is the sine qua non for Catholics.

 

[Reepicheep]

(snipped)
And, if Catholic teaching is so unambiguous, why would you need an entire sabbatical to research and refute the claims made? Shouldn’t it be obvious and clear?

How many years of study does it take to become a qualified physicist?

Does that mean physics is ambiguous?

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

…

I’m a pragmatic person. I am fairly certain Catholicism isn’t true, but just in case, I’d rather not rack up tons of sins. I mean, I heard that my eternal torture will be a little bit less awful if I don’t sin so much by not going to mass.

Look Pumpkin, going to church with your family if you want is an objective good so don’t beat yourself up about it.

Everyone and anyone IS entitled to stop going to communion so any Catholic or Catholic authority that says otherwise shouldn’t be listened to by anyone.

About 20 posts back you were making honest statements in your posts which made it easy to communicate with you but now you’ve gone sarcastic again.

I wish you would argue with me instead of most of those people, because I give you better answers. They are saying they are the experts and you are falling for it hook line and sinker!

 

[PRmerger]

Everyone and anyone IS entitled to stop going to communion so any Catholic or Catholic authority that says otherwise shouldn’t be listened to by anyone.

I don’t know anyone, lumpinthepew Catholic or knowledgeable Catholic, who has ever asserted that someone is NOT entitled to stop going to communion.

So that’s an odd statement to make.

Of course, all folks can NOT go to communion, just like all folks can NOT have sex.

Who in the world asserts that you MUST have sex, or MUST go to communion (even if you feel you shouldn’t)?

#peculiar

 

[Reepicheep]

Well, it’s “Catholic” according to a specific subset of Catholics.

Who are wrong.

Are they the “real” ones? How do you know?

Step one. You have to actually want to know.

Step two. Ask whether what they say is in harmony with the Magisterium.

BTW I totally recognize that mode of thought. “It’s like…wait…this is enjoyable and intuitive…God must be against it!!”

I have never heard a Catholic make this claim. I have many times seen non-Catholics throw it up to Catholics that we think this.

I have also heard the claim made against one non-Catholic denomination or another. I’ve learned to take such claims with a grain of salt. I suggest so should you.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Look Pumpkin, going to church with your family if you want is an objective good so don’t beat yourself up about it.

Everyone and anyone IS entitled to stop going to communion so any Catholic or Catholic authority that says otherwise shouldn’t be listened to by anyone.

About 20 posts back you were making honest statements in your posts which made it easy to communicate with you but now you’ve gone sarcastic again.

I wish you would argue with me instead of most of those people, because I give you better answers. They are saying they are the experts and you are falling for it hook line and sinker!

I have no reason to argue with you! What you say seems reasonable. It seems you agree with my theory that hyper-specific uber-Catholics are motivated by hate.

I apologize for being sarcastic. It is my go-to when I feel like being outright aggressive or hostile but don’t want to say hurtful or mean-spirited things. Unfortunately I am not “above the fray” so to speak.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I don’t know anyone, lumpinthepew Catholic or knowledgeable Catholic, who has ever asserted that someone is NOT entitled to stop going to communion.

So that’s an odd statement to make.

Of course, all folks can NOT go to communion, just like all folks can NOT have sex.

Who in the world asserts that you MUST have sex, or MUST go to communion (even if you feel you shouldn’t)?

#peculiar

Some Catholics think the Church mandates that all Catholics receive communion once per year, on pain of mortal sin.

 

[PRmerger]

I have no reason to argue with you! What you say seems reasonable. It seems you agree with my theory that hyper-specific uber-Catholics are motivated by hate.

I apologize for being sarcastic. It is my go-to when I feel like being outright aggressive or hostile but don’t want to say hurtful or mean-spirited things. Unfortunately I am not “above the fray” so to speak.

I’ve always said that sarcasm is the protest of the weak.
When one doesn’t have a strong response, one appeals to sarcasm.

I rarely use it myself.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

How many years of study does it take to become a qualified physicist?

Does that mean physics is ambiguous?

PRMerger tells me the faith can be understood by 5th graders, and you say it’s analogous to a PhD in physics. Which is it? Who is right? How do I know that you know?

 

[RebeccaJ]

If I change just a few words, I could have written the same thing!

Here:

My faith is objective, which implies there is an object to my faith. Maybe, God is the object of my faith? Of course! Godliness is present everywhere, is many things, including recognition of the objectiveness of our faith. It’s not just a nice idea that is imagined. Though certainly, many (if not all) struggle with an objective faith and default to a subjective faith, usually subject to personal preference. Or to be more blunt, to make God in one’s own image rather than accepting what the object of our faith has revealed about Himself.

Realizing the subjective aspect of one’s own faith can be addressed in many ways. Ignore it. View subjectivity as an insurmountable impediment to truth, therefore all faith is false. Or, we can recognize our weakness as a need, that is filled by truth itself. Truth, being a Person, God. Self perfection is an illusion and a denial of our need for God.

The idea of a perfect human anywhere is, well, un-human! All belong everywhere, no matter where they are in their journey towards Truth.

You didn’t change anything. Jesus is God.

God created us already turned towards Himself. To see Godliness in all of creation is a sign of faith, not a lack of faith. Though I suspect you are expressing modern pagan ideas of the embodied universe, to which things are “thrown out to the universe”?

 

[PRmerger]

Some Catholics think the Church mandates that all Catholics receive communion once per year, on pain of mortal sin.

This is correct.

But you are entitled to NOT go if you are not disposed properly.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I’ve always said that sarcasm is the protest of the weak.
When one doesn’t have a strong response, one appeals to sarcasm.

I rarely use it myself.

Despite your numerous attempts to bait me, I am not going for it.

Your attempts remind me of this, LOL: