The Cost

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Thekla,
You make an excellent point and I’m gratified that you understood the intent of my post. Unfortunately, I have to agree with you that the likelihood of the money having been spent well elsewhere is slim.

estesbob,
I have many rational reasons for opposing the war and did so from the start. However, that was not the question that I posed. My question was simply couldn’t the money have been used better elsewhere. Remember too, I mentioned spending to upgrade our military and security capabilities.
I’m no pacifist, I simply object to what I perceive as the waste of our national lifeblood and treasure.
Regarding benefits, my only point is that you and I and or any other two people might well have different views on what exactly comprises a benefit.

John
 
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john1863:
Cost benefit analysis?
Yes.
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john1863:
How can that possibly be done since we cannot see what the final outcome will be?
I sense the sideward shuffle already, john.

You know what the preliminary objectives were. You know what benefits have accrued. Are those benefits consistent with the preliminary objectives? Are those benefits likely to continue accumulating interest?
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john1863:
To do an analysis you will have to demonstrate, in clear terms, the benefit.
Oh john, john, john. You haven’t read gilliams links yet, have you? :nope:
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john1863:
Short term gains do not equate to a true benefit.
Short term gains do not necessarily equate to true benefit. But the question was not "necessarily’; the question was specifically in Iraq.

Short term gains equate to small steps. That is how a traumatized people learn to regain their strength. Small steps.

In any case the Iraqis have been making big steps for quite some time now. Surely you are not saying that democracy is a short term benefit?
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john1863:
If we build a pumping station that is destroyed, the benefit is negated.
The benefit of having a pumping station is negated. The benefit of team building, neighbourhood building, creating jobs, creating pride in one’s work, creating hope: all of these benefits are much harder to negate.

But there is no point in discussing this with you further if you persist in not respecting the opposing point of view. It’s time you demonstrate that you have read gilliam’s links. What gains have been made in Iraq? Please list them.
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john1863:
The cost remains.
Yes, the relatively low cost does remain. While gilliam continues to post links to the mountain of benefits already accumulated in Iraq. Oh! Forgive me. I was assuming you had done your part. Have you read those links yet? Perhaps you can ask gilliam directly to help you out.
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john1863:
Naturally enough, one man’s benefit may not be regarded that way by another.
Ooooohhh… moral relativism. Interesting move on a Catholic forum.
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john1863:
Obviously, we are not going to agree on this issue.
No, but a lot of information and dedication doth pass between an OP and a thread sinking to the bottom of the thread list.
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john1863:
Personally I don’t believe that all of Iraq is worth the life of one American soldier.
It is not your call. Those who enlist: it is their call, not yours.
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john1863:
The five minute reference was to show that views and analysis contrary to your position are easy to find and not just in liberal news outlets.
I didn’t need your links to discover that. I need go no further than this forum. The reason I questioned your five-minute reference is to shed light on the fact that research takes a lot longer than five minutes.

Oh, is this hard to understand? By research I don’t mean deciding what you think and then skimming the google list to find articles which agree with you. Did you think that was what I meant?

My request for links was made in the context of my request for you to make your case, which you have not as yet made. Stating a position and then hurling links is not making a case.

As for your news sources, you have not demonstrated that they are not liberal outlets. You have demonstrated only that you have found outlets which claim to be impartial.
 
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Thekla:
John,
The better question could be why are Americans letting the leaders in our government squander the respect for the United States and bankrupt the nation?
And the answer is we have been blessed with leaders that did not let our govt squander the respect for the United States and did not bankrupt the nation. i think when you were positng you must have confusing the United States with the United Nations…

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/14_3_6.gif …
 
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john1863:
My question was simply couldn’t the money have been used better elsewhere.
I have already answered this question.
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john1863:
I’m no pacifist
Then why do you link to organizations which aim to disarm the US military and send peacekeepers from international organizations to defuse conflict?
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john1863:
I simply object to what I perceive as the waste of our national lifeblood and treasure.
How do you define “national lifeblood and treasure”?
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john1863:
Regarding benefits, my only point is that you and I and or any other two people might well have different views on what exactly comprises a benefit.
This is moral relativism. You are avoiding looking at the Congressional Resolution and at gilliam’s links. Please do the homework, list the benefits claimed, and then tell us that you do not think that those specific benefits are really benefits.
 
An Ibi,
There is no sideways shuffle involved here, nor is moral relativism a question. Wars, by there very nature are political actions and as such open for divergent viewpoints. My disagreeing with your view of benefits does not equate to a moral crisis on my part, unless you possess some authority of which I am unaware. Even JPII had grave reservations about the notion of preemptive war.
Why are gilliam’s links anymore valid than the few I offered and how can YOU prove that they are impartial? No one, IMHO, is totally impartial.
BTW, I searched for all of gilliam’s posts and have been reading them as quickly as I can. You and he are very active posters.
Oh, is this hard to understand? By research I don’t mean deciding what you think and then skimming the google list to find articles which agree with you. Did you think that was what I meant?
And please drop the condescension, it demeans your cause.

John
 
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estesbob:
And the answer is we have been blessed with leaders that did not let our govt squander the respect for the United States and did not bankrupt the nation.
Perhaps you should look at the opinion other countries have of the USA, and how that has changed since the immediate aftermath of September 11th. ‘Squander’ is easily the best word for it.

I seem to remember quite a lot of interest in a ‘balanced budget’. Does no-one care about that anymore - or do they just care when Democrats are in power?

Mike
 
I agree. The main reason given is the war, but I think it’s more than that since the numbers I posted show the percentage of GDP is low.

Of course the flip-side is also true. Notice, that the Democrats started caring about a ‘balanced budget’ once the Republicans were in power and spending. They were too busy spending and defending Keynesian economics in the 80s.
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MikeWM:
I seem to remember quite a lot of interest in a ‘balanced budget’. Does no-one care about that anymore - or do they just care when Democrats are in power?

Mike
 
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MikeWM:
Perhaps you should look at the opinion other countries have of the USA, and how that has changed since the immediate aftermath of September 11th. ‘Squander’ is easily the best word for it.

I seem to remember quite a lot of interest in a ‘balanced budget’. Does no-one care about that anymore - or do they just care when Democrats are in power?

Mike
If debt equaled bankrupt everyone in the US would be bankrupt. I could not care less what other countries think about us. I remember how the supposed “civilized” countries mocked and belittled Reagan when he set out to bring communism down. I remember the crocdile tears from the usual suspects in the US on how the world hated us and how wrong he was to call the USSR the “evil empire.” History has shown that those who persevere in doing what is right DESPITE what other countries think always come out on top in the end. You may think a “care bear” foreign policy is best. Real leaders know better.
 
George Schultz on Iraq

Yesterday in a speech on the War on Terror at Princeton’s Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs, former Secretary of State George Schultz said, “The world has never been in a situation of better promise than now. The terrorists must not be allowed to abort this opportunity.”

Here’s more on his speech from The Daily Princetonian…

Think about that for a moment: roughly four years of force after thirty years of passivity. During that time, the two thousand six-hundred U.S. military personnel who have paid the ultimate price in defense of their country also liberated more than 30 million people from the yolk of tyranny, oppression and terror.

It’s disheartening that more Americans don’t take the long view about what sort of perseverance the war against Islamic radicalism is going to take on our part and also that they aren’t quicker to recognize the significant historical achievements produced by our efforts so far.

realclearpolitics.com/blog/2006/03/schultz_at_princeton.html

WASHINGTON, March 16, 2006 – Past victories over ideologies of hatred serve as a reminder that such triumphs require time, patience and sacrifice, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said in Australia today. In an interview with Kerry O’Brien on the Australian Broadcasting Company’s “7:30 Report,” Rice said there’s no choice but to win. Australia is Rice’s final stop on a weeklong visit to Latin America and the Pacific.

“We’ve won these struggles before against ideologies of hatred, but it’s always taken time; it’s taken patience; unfortunately, it’s sometimes taken sacrifice. It’s also taken good friends and allies like we have here in Australia,” Rice said. “But we’ve triumphed because we’ve stayed true to our values. We’ve triumphed because we have believed in those who were trying to seek freedom’s promise. And we’ve triumphed because we’ve recognized that there is no alternative than to confront this ideology of hatred and to defeat it.”

defenselink.mil/news/Mar2006/20060316_4510.html
 
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rlg94086:
I agree. The main reason given is the war, but I think it’s more than that since the numbers I posted show the percentage of GDP is low.

Of course the flip-side is also true. Notice, that the Democrats started caring about a ‘balanced budget’ once the Republicans were in power and spending. They were too busy spending and defending Keynesian economics in the 80s.
Oh, indeed. As always, more than enough blame to go around!

Personally, I’m all for Keynesian economics as probably the most sensible way to run an economy that is structured the way we have it right now. But then I don’t go on about balanced budgets - at least not usually. I do start to look a bit alarmed when the deficit gets very high though, especially when not in a time when Keynesian economics would dictate should be the time for deficit spending.

That’s my limit for an economic discussion though. Economics depresses me. I agree with its description as ‘the dismal science’ 😉

Mike
 
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john1863:
Everyone,
We are rapidly approaching $650 Billion in cost for the war in Iraq. Conservative estimates are putting the final cost at over $1 trillion.
My question is…wasn’t there something we could have done here for that amount.
Before anyone starts with the “Better to fight them there than here” argument (i.e. detection equipment, more, better trained screeners, better port security), what could we have here done for even the lower amount?

John
A Nuke? 😃

I am kind of kidding, but I am not also. If we were to go in and just blow the place off the face of the earth, I am sure it would have been much less expensive. But because we attempt to spare civillian lives as much as possible, the war gets prolonged, and yet it’s still not as long as WWII, because even after the hostilities ended, it took decades to rebuild the countries, it also took a lot of money as well. Germany and Japan did not rebuild themselves, we did and it took almost 30 years and trillions of dollars to do it.

If you want a cheap war, go in and conquer them, if you want to have a society become an ally and a productive part of the global society, you take a little longer, spend a little more money, and do what you can to protect the innocent civillians while elminating the evil in their midst.

As far as the poor and the old, do you know who took care of them before Social Security and the other government handouts were created in the 1930s? It was the family, and the Church. In fact until the government decided to make it citizens slaves to the government dole, it was the Church that provided almost ALL social programs. I say let the government do what it was created to do and that is defend the country, and let us get back to when families and the Church took care of the sick, poor and elderly.
 
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estesbob:
If debt equaled bankrupt everyone in the US would be bankrupt.
And in the UK, myself included. Still, what the government does and what the individual does aren’t the same thing, obviously, in terms of finance.
I could not care less what other countries think about us.
That’s a shame in some respects, and admirable in others. Nevertheless, significant good will has been lost. As I think that was due to actions the USA has done that I would rather have not seen done, to me that is ‘squandered’. You evidently would just say it has been lost, and never mind about it.
You may think a “care bear” foreign policy is best. Real leaders know better.
I don’t think that; I am an internationalist but a realistic one.

Mike
 
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MikeWM:
That’s a shame in some respects, and admirable in others. Nevertheless, significant good will has been lost. As I think that was due to actions the USA has done that I would rather have not seen done, to me that is ‘squandered’. You evidently would just say it has been lost, and never mind about it.

Mike
We still have a great resevoir of goodwill in Eastern Europe-i am not sure we will ever get any goodwill from France , germany et al.

If doing what is right causes a loss of goodwill it is a small price to pay.
 
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MikeWM:
And in the UK, myself included. Still, what the government does and what the individual does aren’t the same thing, obviously, in terms of finance.

That’s a shame in some respects, and admirable in others. Nevertheless, significant good will has been lost. As I think that was due to actions the USA has done that I would rather have not seen done, to me that is ‘squandered’. You evidently would just say it has been lost, and never mind about it.

I don’t think that; I am an internationalist but a realistic one.

Mike
 
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john1863:
There is no sideways shuffle involved here
I beg to differ. I have read your links and discussed them. You have yet to refer to any of the information which gilliam has posted on the progress made in Iraqi. That, john, is a sideways shuffle.
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john1863:
nor is moral relativism a question
Did you post the following?
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john1863:
Regarding benefits, my only point is that you and I and or any other two people might well have different views on what exactly comprises a benefit.
Reducing the discussion of benefits to varying individual points of view is moral relativism.

There are some empirical observations which can be made. I have asked you to make them. You have thusfar declined. Just because you decline to look at the evidence, does not mean that it does not exist.
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john1863:
Wars, by there very nature are political actions and as such open for divergent viewpoints.
Wars are fought according to objectives. There are some phenomena about wars which are not subject to divergent viewpoints. Your saying that they are does not make them so.
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john1863:
My disagreeing with your view of benefits does not equate to a moral crisis on my part, unless you possess some authority of which I am unaware.
Did I say “moral crisis”? I do possess some authority. I have pointed you to it on repeated occasions. That is the mountain of evidence pointing to the benefits accrued in Iraq. The evidence is the authority.
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john1863:
Even JPII had grave reservations about the notion of preemptive war.
Ah here we go. No sooner than we deal with one issue thoroughly than someone comes along, doesn’t check what has been posted already, and just starts it all over.

Ask estesbob. He knows quite a lot about what JPII had to say about Iraq.
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john1863:
Why are gilliam’s links anymore valid than the few I offered and how can YOU prove that they are impartial?
Hey, john. It’s a discussion. I have looked at your links. You have not yet demonstrated that you have looked at gilliam’s. Before commenting on gilliam’s links it would benefit your case immensely by reading them and commenting directly on what you have read. Of course you can choose not to and that would be sideshuffling.
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john1863:
No one, IMHO, is totally impartial.
However, some reports are made in good faith, transparently.
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john1863:
BTW, I searched for all of gilliam’s posts and have been reading them as quickly as I can. You and he are very active posters.
We will know that you have been reading them when you comment on the material. Have you asked gilliam to give you the relevant links? Who knows: she might have them filed in a way which makes rapid access possible.
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john1863:
And please drop the condescension, it demeans your cause.
It is quite likely a linguistic/cultural divergence which you label as condescension. What would demean someone’s cause is singlemindedly promoting an agenda rather than considering the opposing point of view.
 
An Ibi,

Two of Gilliam’s posts that I found of interest:
realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/03/myths_of_iraq.html
realclearpolitics.com/blog/2006/03/schultz_at_princeton.html
I will grant that there are many fine things happening in Iraq. However, that fact does not answer my original query could the money have been better spent?
Remember, the original intent of this war was not Iraqi freedom but the elimination of a perceived threat of WMD. Personally, I would have preferred a much more surgical approach.
It is quite likely a linguistic/cultural divergence which you label as condescension. What would demean someone’s cause is singlemindedly promoting an agenda rather than considering the opposing point of view.
I am from central Pennsylvania, a 48 yo white male who enlisted during the Iranian crisis, published author and researcher (Military and Industrial history). You be the judge if we are culturally/linguistically divergent enough for me to mistake some of your statements.

John
 
First I am not sure what you mean by surgical approach. Had we killed Saddam, his sons would have taken over. Had we been lucky enough to kill the top leadership of the Baathist party, civil war would have errupted. But that is an academic story, we didn’t have any agents in Iraq and we didn’t know where Saddam was at any one time. Bush, with CIA info, tried to take Saddam out on the eve of the war and it turns out the strike wasn’t even close.

The cost of 9/11 was mega billions, with all the industrial shut downs and other losses. The cost of yet another 9/11 would be horrendous in both dollars and lives. The threat from al-Qaeda, Saddam, and Iran are real. They mean to change our lives and they are willing to use mass murder to make us surrender to their will.

As you know, the arguement for preemption is to pay a price now to avoid a much larger price later.
  • The cost of loosing our way of life, or Europe loosing its way of life is uncalculable.
  • The loss to christendom if al-Qaeda and Saddam’s plans succeed are uncalculable.
However, preemption is not done in isolation. It is a part of a much larger plan that uses many other ways to protect us. Preemption is the last resort when nothing else will work. I would recommend everyone read the [National Security Strategy (http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss/2006/) released Wednesday.

From the report:

It is the policy of the United States to seek and support democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world. In the world today, the fundamental character of regimes matters as much as the distribution of power among them. The goal of our statecraft is to help create a world of democratic, well-governed states that can meet the needs of their citizens and conduct themselves responsibly in the international system. This is the best way to provide enduring security for the American people.

Achieving this goal is the work of generations. The United States is in the early years of a long struggle, similar to what our country faced in the early years of the Cold War. The 20th century witnessed the triumph of freedom over the threats of fascism and communism. Yet a new totalitarian ideology now threatens, an ideology grounded not in secular philosophy but in the perversion of a proud religion. Its content may be different from the ideologies of the last century, but its means are similar: intolerance, murder, terror, enslavement, and repression.

Like those who came before us, we must lay the foundations and build the institutions that our country needs to meet the challenges we face. The chapters that follow will focus on several essential tasks.
whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss/2006/sectionI.html
…

The security environment confronting the United States today is radically different from what we have faced before. Yet the first duty of the United States Government remains what it always has been: to protect the American people and American interests. It is an enduring American principle that this duty obligates the government to anticipate and counter threats, using all elements of national power, before the threats can do grave damage. The greater the threat, the greater is the risk of inaction – and the more compelling the case for taking anticipatory action to defend ourselves, even if uncertainty remains as to the time and place of the enemy’s attack. There are few greater threats than a terrorist attack with WMD.
To forestall or prevent such hostile acts by our adversaries, the United States will, if necessary, act preemptively in exercising our inherent right of self-defense. The United States will not resort to force in all cases to preempt emerging threats. Our preference is that nonmilitary actions succeed. And no country should ever use preemption as a pretext for aggression.

Countering proliferation of WMD requires a comprehensive strategy involving strengthened nonproliferation efforts to deny these weapons of terror and related expertise to those seeking them; proactive counterproliferation efforts to defend against and defeat WMD and missile threats before they are unleashed; and improved protection to mitigate the consequences of WMD use. We aim to convince our adversaries that they cannot achieve their goals with WMD, and thus deter and dissuade them from attempting to use or even acquire these weapons in the first place.

whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss/2006/sectionV.html
 
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john1863:
This tells me that you have found two of gilliams’ links. It does not tell me that you have read them. If you were to list the benefits claimed and provide an analysis and commentary of those benefits, that would demonstrate that you have read gilliam’s articles.
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john1863:
I will grant that there are many fine things happening in Iraq.
Would you be kind enough to list the benefits please.
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john1863:
However, that fact does not answer my original query could the money have been better spent?
No, you’re right: it doesn’t. Listing the benefits wasn’t meant to answer your question.

Listing the benefits was one step in setting up a cost benefit analysis. A cost benefit analysis of the option we took plus the options available will answer your question.
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john1863:
Remember, the original intent of this war was not Iraqi freedom but the elimination of a perceived threat of WMD.
I see you haven’t read the Congressional Resolution either. Reading that will help you to do your cost benefit analysis so that your question can be answered. I believe another poster was kind enough to give you a link to that document.
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john1863:
Personally, I would have preferred a much more surgical approach.
A surgical approach too is subject to cost benefit analysis. As a military writer, you should know already why a surgical approach was not taken.
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john1863:
I am from central Pennsylvania, a 48 yo white male who enlisted during the Iranian crisis, published author and researcher (Military and Industrial history). You be the judge if we are culturally/linguistically divergent enough for me to mistake some of your statements.
Your appeal to qualifications is an ad hominem argument. The question is not how qualified you are. The question is which of my statements do you consider condescending and why?

When someone makes an accusation – which you have done – it is contingent on that person to point out exactly what the problem is by making reference to it.

This is normally done in any kind of writing by using quotations. Your accusation was a broad sweep and excluded any reference to something I actually said.

Since you have not quoted any of gilliam’s material either, I wonder if problematic research methodology isn’t becoming a pattern, notwithstanding that you are a published author.
 
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