The Creation Account Contrary to LDS Account?

[Janderich]

In looking up Scripture verses about angels, I came across one that I think is interesting considering the subject matter of this thread. While other translations of the same verse do not read exactly the same, the Douai-Rheims version I have on my computer (don’t have a print copy) reads:

2Pe 2:10 And especially them who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise government: audacious, self willed, they fear not to bring in sects, blaspheming.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, who are greater in strength and power, bring not against themselves a railing judgment.

I copied the entirety of verse 10 for the sake of clarity. The verse contrasts men, who are not afraid to commit blasphemy, with angels, who do not bring “railing judgment” against themselves. Going back to the original discussion about angels and men, if angels were the souls of men, why would an angel who never rebelled be willing to become a sinner? Because in 2 Peter 2:4, it says that God did not spare the angels when they sinned. Why would he spare an enfleshed angel if he did not spare Satan and his lot?

As I said, other translations do not read the same way. The KJV and the NABRE have a translation that reads that the angels do not accuse men before the Lord for this sin. And the NABRE connects the verse in its footnotes to Jude 9. The wording of the NABRE, though, without the footnotes, still might possibly be read with the meaning in the Douai-Rheims.

Crux Sacra,
I will explain this issue but I do not expect agreement. I also hope you do not mock our beliefs but can approach the subject without condemnation. To understand the creation account and to understand LDS beliefs there are number of important pieces:

1. A physical body is a step up in progression, not a step down. Joseph Smith said, "“all beings who have bodies have power over those who have not” ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 181).
2. The physical body, while not evil, is under the influence of Satan while on the earth. Brigham Young said, ““The spirit is pure, and under the special control and influence of the Lord, but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth. If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both”(Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 70).

So to your first question: Why would an angel who never rebelled be willing to become a sinner? To gain a body and move up in progression.

Why would he spare an enfleshed angel? Because the Lord knew that the body, while here on the earth, would be under the influence of Satan. Thus man needed to be granted time to prove his or her worth by choosing to follow his spirit and thus overcome the influence of the body.

 

[mercytruth]

Janderich,

Whether you know it or not, you are undermining and refuting the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is no pre-existent spirit that is sent into each of us who are born into this earth. Even if there was such a spirit, and there is not, such a pre-existent spirit would not be able to overcome our inclination to sin. The apostle Paul explains that the defeat of sinful inclinations is through the Spirit of God, the **Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ **who defeated sin while here on earth. Romans 8:1-10::

"B]There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you** free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.**"

 

[TexanKnight]

Janderich,

Whether you know it or not, you are undermining and refuting the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is no pre-existent spirit that is sent into each of us who are born into this earth. Even if there was such a spirit, and there is not, such a pre-existent spirit would not be able to overcome our inclination to sin. The apostle Paul explains that the defeat of sinful inclinations is through the Spirit of God, the **Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ **who defeated sin while here on earth. Romans 8:1-10::

"B]There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you**** free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

This

 

[Janderich]

Janderich,

Whether you know it or not, you are undermining and refuting the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. There is no pre-existent spirit that is sent into each of us who are born into this earth. Even if there was such a spirit, and there is not, such a pre-existent spirit would not be able to overcome our inclination to sin. The apostle Paul explains that the defeat of sinful inclinations is through the Spirit of God, the **Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ **who defeated sin while here on earth. Romans 8:1-10::

"B]There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you**** free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

Indeed Paul here separates our flesh, our spirit, and the Spirit of God [Holy Ghost]. This can be well seen in verse 13 of the same chapter, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:” Thus, the Spirit [Holy Ghost] speaks to our spirit [the spirit in each person] that we are indeed God’s children.

I agree with you that only through the aid of the Holy Ghost and his influence can we hope to overcome sin. However, the Holy Ghost has special influence over our spirit. Hence as we follow our spirit and by extension the Holy Ghost, we will be saved.

 

[mercytruth]

Janderich,

Then you need to retract this statement of yours:

'Thus man needed to be granted time to prove his or her worth by choosing to follow **his spirit **and thus overcome the influence of the body. ’

Following our own spirit without the Spirit of Jesus Christ will not lead to life. And how what is it that you mean following our own spirit and by extension, the Holy Spirit.
Is our spirit part of the Holy Spirit?

 

[campeador]

I agree with you that only through the aid of the Holy Ghost and his influence can we hope to overcome sin. However, the Holy Ghost has special influence over our spirit.

This statement contradicts this:

1. A physical body is a step up in progression, not a step down. Joseph Smith said, "“all beings who have bodies have power over those who have not” ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 181).

 

[Janderich]

Janderich,

Then you need to retract this statement of yours:

'Thus man needed to be granted time to prove his or her worth by choosing to follow **his spirit **and thus overcome the influence of the body. ’

Following our own spirit without the Spirit of Jesus Christ will not lead to life. And how what is it that you mean following our own spirit and by extension, the Holy Spirit.
Is our spirit part of the Holy Spirit?

Please note what Brigham Young said, “The spirit is pure, and under the special control and influence of the Lord,…” Because our spirit is under the influence of the Lord, when we initially choose to follow our spirit we follow the Lord’s influence. Our spirit is not part of the Holy Spirit, it is simply influenced more strongly by the Holy Ghost then is our flesh.

 

[Janderich]

Janderich;9130144:

I agree with you that only through the aid of the Holy Ghost and his influence can we hope to overcome sin. However, the Holy Ghost has special influence over our spirit. Hence as we follow our spirit and by extension the Holy Ghost, we will be saved.

This statement contradicts this:

1. A physical body is a step up in progression, not a step down. Joseph Smith said, "“all beings who have bodies have power over those who have not” ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 181).

Let me try and clarify this apparent discrepancy. Our physical body is not evil. In fact, it is as I stated, an improvement over simply our spirit alone. However, our body is created from the dust of this earth. Because it is created from the dust of the earth Satan and his followers have some measure of control to influence our appetites and passions. Because of this, one of the great tasks in this life is to learn to control our carnal desires by following our spirit and the Lord’s influence. If we do so, at the resurrection when our spirit and our body are inseparably reunited we will then find a fullness of joy.

 

[mercytruth]

Janderich,

So, who is the ‘Lord’, according to Brigham Young? And who is the spirit of Adam?

 

[TexanKnight]

Janderich,

So, who is the ‘Lord’, according to Brigham Young? And who is the spirit of Adam?

Adam is the angel Michael, who creates the earth with Jesus.

Adam then becomes God according to BY

 

[mercytruth]

TexanKnight,

Thanks for answering my questions.

When I did not receive a response from Mr. Janderich, there is more than one would want to know regarding the beliefs of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. According to Brigham Young, Michael/Adam is the God and Father of us all, the Ancient of Days, and the one by whom the Blessed Virgin Mary conceived, and not of the Holy Ghost. Blasphemy around every twist and turn of the holy scriptures.

Furthermore, in one of his recountings of a dream Brigham Young had of Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith told him, ‘that our minds must be open to receive all spirits’, in order for us to receive the spirit of the Lord.

May God save the soul of Mr. Janderich, and other Mormons from such deception.

(The more I read of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the more I am convinced they were involved with an esoteric form of Freemasonry that delved into occultic and gnostic beliefs.)

 

[mwok]

Let me try and clarify this apparent discrepancy. Our physical body is not evil. In fact, it is as I stated, an improvement over simply our spirit alone. However, our body is created from the dust of this earth. Because it is created from the dust of the earth Satan and his followers have some measure of control to influence our appetites and passions. Because of this, one of the great tasks in this life is to learn to control our carnal desires by following our spirit and the Lord’s influence. If we do so, at the resurrection when our spirit and our body are inseparably reunited we will then find a fullness of joy.

If a physical body is progression, then how does Satan, who never has or will obtain a body and thus is inferior to the flesh, have any control over something God created?
It seems to me that according to LDS terminology, the body acts seperately under the influence of Satan and is foreign to the soul, which is under the influence of God even though both were created by God. Jesus said a house divided will fall on itself.

 

[Janderich]

Janderich,

So, who is the ‘Lord’, according to Brigham Young? And who is the spirit of Adam?

Sorry mercytruth, as you may know today is the LDS Church General Conference and I was attending. Now to your questions.

Let me talk for a minute about Adam. Adam is the great patriarch of the human race. He is one of the greatest men that ever lived on the earth. As TexanKnight has stated he was Michael the Archangel. He helped create the Earth.

As part of the plan he came to earth. Adam and Eve performed a vital part in the plan of salvation by partaking of the fruit and allowing men and women to be born on the earth. President Joseph Fielding Smith said it this way, “Adam did only what he had to do, he partook of that fruit for one good reason, and that was to open the door to bring you and me and everyone else into this world, for Adam and Eve could have remained in the Garden of Eden; they could have been there to this day, if Eve hadn’t done something.” (Conference Report, Oct. 1967, p. 121) They also introduced sin.

We do not believe in the Adam God Theory. Spencer W. Kimball said, “We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some General Authorities of past generations, such, for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine” (Church News, 10/9/76). No doubt TexanKnight could pull old quotes from Brigham Young but I hope we don’t need to get side tracked on this issue.

 

[mercytruth]

Janderich,

TexanKnight is only quoting from Mormon sources, and what Brigham Young said regarding Michael/Adam being the God and Father and the Ancient of Days, and the begetter of the humanity of Jesus Christ can be found in this Mormon site:

jod.mrm.org/1/46

As far as Joseph Smith’s conversation with Brigham Young that we should be open to receiving all spirits in order to receive the spirit of the Lord, this can be found in this Mormon site:

believeallthings.com/2758/brigham-youngs-vision-joseph-smith

Now getting back to something you quoted by Joseph Smith:
1. A physical body is a step up in progression, not a step down. Joseph Smith said, "“all beings who have bodies have power over those who have not” ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 181).

This would seem to indicate that Joseph Smith thinks human beings (alone) have power over God’s holy angels, and over the fallen angels, or demons.

 

[mwok]

As part of the plan he came to earth. Adam and Eve performed a vital part in the plan of salvation by partaking of the fruit and allowing men and women to be born on the earth. President Joseph Fielding Smith said it this way, “Adam did only what he had to do, he partook of that fruit for one good reason, and that was to open the door to bring you and me and everyone else into this world, for Adam and Eve could have remained in the Garden of Eden; they could have been there to this day, if Eve hadn’t done something.” (Conference Report, Oct. 1967, p. 121) They also introduced sin.

So God confused Adam and Eve by commanding them to be fruitful and multiply before Adam and Eve had any clue as to how to obey that command?

 

[TexanKnight]

Sorry mercytruth, as you may know today is the LDS Church General Conference and I was attending. Now to your questions.

Let me talk for a minute about Adam. Adam is the great patriarch of the human race. He is one of the greatest men that ever lived on the earth. As TexanKnight has stated he was Michael the Archangel. He helped create the Earth.

As part of the plan he came to earth. Adam and Eve performed a vital part in the plan of salvation by partaking of the fruit and allowing men and women to be born on the earth. President Joseph Fielding Smith said it this way, “Adam did only what he had to do, he partook of that fruit for one good reason, and that was to open the door to bring you and me and everyone else into this world, for Adam and Eve could have remained in the Garden of Eden; they could have been there to this day, if Eve hadn’t done something.” (Conference Report, Oct. 1967, p. 121) They also introduced sin.

We do not believe in the Adam God Theory. Spencer W. Kimball said, “We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some General Authorities of past generations, such, for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine” (Church News, 10/9/76). No doubt TexanKnight could pull old quotes from Brigham Young but I hope we don’t need to get side tracked on this issue.

Thank you. You have just proven that the LDS church is false. It was not just any general authority that taught Adam god, it was an alleged prophet. Now you say ths prophet taught false doctrine. God would never permit that. You have proven the lds church is false. Thank you

 

[campeador]

Let me try and clarify this apparent discrepancy. Our physical body is not evil. In fact, it is as I stated, an improvement over simply our spirit alone. However, our body is created from the dust of this earth. Because it is created from the dust of the earth Satan and his followers have some measure of control to influence our appetites and passions. Because of this, one of the great tasks in this life is to learn to control our carnal desires by following our spirit and the Lord’s influence. If we do so, at the resurrection when our spirit and our body are inseparably reunited we will then find a fullness of joy.

I’m sorry but this is no clarification at all.

According to Joseph Smith, beings with bodies have power over the Holy Ghost, because by definition the Holy Ghost has no body.

The Holy Ghost can’t possibly have any special influence over our spirit because the Holy Ghost has no body.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I’m sorry but this is no clarification at all.

According to Joseph Smith, beings with bodies have power over the Holy Ghost, because by definition the Holy Ghost has no body.

The Holy Ghost can’t possibly have any special influence over our spirit because the Holy Ghost has no body.

because there is no other way to interpret what JS said, because this is utterly blasphemous. But you can see how ineffective the LDS version is, chased off by loud laughter, unchaste thoughts, contention, irreverence, a couple of irreverent children in sacrament meeting, spirit is gone. Fragile as a soap bubble the LDS “Holy Ghost” is.

 

[mercytruth]

Since its inception, the LDS leadership has taken the sheep’s clothing of the Holy Scriptures and interwoven the lies of Satan into this holy garment. This is what Satan did with Eve when he said, ‘has God said’? This is what Satan did when he tempted Jesus Christ in the wilderness by twisting the Holy Scriptures. This LDS deception is more refined than that of the gnostic heresies of the first centuries of the church.

 

[Jerusha]

This LDS deception is more refined than that of the gnostic heresies of the first centuries of the church.

Can you imagine BY and his friends reading
St Irenaeus and saying, “Hey, that is a good one. I can preach that at next GC.”