The Crystal Cathedral *will become* a CATHOLIC Cathedral

[Filii_Dei]

Also, Crystal Cathedral Ministries will not have ‘(name removed by moderator)ut’ as to the transfiguration as Filii Dei said. Like Dale, I am wondering where this talk of political pressure comes in? Whatever you are saying Filii, I am sorry, it is just hearsay and your own personal conjecture. The fact of the matter is Crystal Cathedral Ministries sold the CC to the diocese precisely because they wanted it to remain a Christian space of worship.

I did not say that they had any (name removed by moderator)ut. You might want to re-read my post. In fact, my concern is that they would wish to apply some form of pressure or protest against the Diocese precisely because they will not have any formal avenue of (name removed by moderator)ut. You know how society is like these days.

I have neither cited hearsay nor spread it. This is a genuine concern I have for the well-being and independence of the Diocese, based upon the well-documented fact that some CCM members have previously tried to lobby and stop the sale. It is therefore not simply personal conjecture drawn out of thin air but a very real possibility. If these people could lobby against the sale, they could very well lobby against the renovation works as well.

Yes, I am fully aware of why CCM chose the Diocese over other higher bids, but not all of CCM’s members will share the same view or attitudes as their organisation. If you read my post properly, you would realise that I am not directing my concern to CCM, but to some of its members. I am confident that CCM itself will not interfere, since they are the ones who sealed the deal, but as I have already noted, their more radical members may decide to make a hullabaloo about it, and therein lies the rub.

 

[TevereNauta]

I did not say that they had any (name removed by moderator)ut. You might want to re-read my post. In fact, my concern is that they would wish to apply some form of pressure or protest against the Diocese precisely because they will not have any formal avenue of (name removed by moderator)ut. You know how society is like these days.

I have neither cited hearsay nor spread it. This is a genuine concern I have for the well-being and independence of the Diocese, based upon the well-documented fact that some CCM members have previously tried to lobby and stop the sale. It is therefore not simply personal conjecture drawn out of thin air but a very real possibility. If these people could lobby against the sale, they could very well lobby against the renovation works as well.

Yes, I am fully aware of why CCM chose the Diocese over other higher bids, but not all of CCM’s members will share the same view or attitudes as their organisation. If you read my post properly, you would realise that I am not directing my concern to CCM, but to some of its members. I am confident that CCM itself will not interfere, since they are the ones who sealed the deal, but as I have already noted, their more radical members may decide to make a hullabaloo about it, and therein lies the rub.

Fair enough FIlii, sorry if I took what you said out of context. Indeed, I know how society is, unfortunately .

One can only hope the many generous stipulations and minutiae of the diocese’s purchase will keep the radicals, so to speak, at bay. Perhaps, since the Crystal Cathedral is being transfigured to be more Catholic, we can go real traditional–and build an oubliette to house the radicals until they cool down.

Sorry, just a joke, in a good mood.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Fair enough FIlii, sorry if I took what you said out of context. Indeed, I know how society is, unfortunately .

One can only hope the many generous stipulations and minutiae of the diocese’s purchase will keep the radicals, so to speak, at bay. Perhaps, since the Crystal Cathedral is being transfigured to be more Catholic, we can go real traditional–and build an oubliette to house the radicals until they cool down.

Sorry, just a joke, in a good mood.

There is no need to be sorry. You raised an important point. I would take note to be clearer in my posts the next time, so we may always avoid unnecessary misunderstanding.

An oubliette? We can make it out of glass as well, so we may charge visitors for the upkeep of the building. And why stop there, when we can ask the Diocese to organise an Inquisition to staff it and exploit it to its full potential?

Pax vobiscum, my friend!

 

[TevereNauta]

There is no need to be sorry. You raised an important point. I would take note to be clearer in my posts the next time, so we may always avoid unnecessary misunderstanding.

An oubliette? We can make it out of glass as well, so we may charge visitors for the upkeep of the building. And why stop there, when we can ask the Diocese to organise an Inquisition to staff it and exploit it to its full potential?

Pax vobiscum, my friend!

Well, Filii, you must have an ‘inside line’ re some hardcore congregation members who are challenging the sale. Update for all:

latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0201-crystal-cathedral-sale-20120201,0,6778930.story

Filii, you had said a few posts back:

In fact, my concern is that they would wish to apply some form of pressure or protest against the Diocese precisely because they will not have any formal avenue of (name removed by moderator)ut. You know how society is like these days.

How validated you are sir! Fortunately, for the diocese in terms of the final approval through escrow, the people challenging this simply do not have the money to draw it out ad infinitum. As a practicioner of the law myself, I know first hand that litigation ends when the money runs out. Anyway Filii, I truly owe you apology, your concerns were dead on. Are you a local too by any chance?

 

[rossum]

But I am a bit curious about the statement at the conclusion. Monsignor Holquin states that he was not aware of any other Protestant church which was later converted into a Catholic church. I guess I find that surprising, but I am not aware of any instances. Does anyone here know of an example or two?

There are plenty of examples in Europe. For example, all the old churches and Cathedrals in the Czech Republic were Catholic, then Hussite and then converted back to Catholic again. I am sure there are other examples.

rossum

 

[Filii_Dei]

Well, Filii, you must have an ‘inside line’ re some hardcore congregation members who are challenging the sale. Update for all:

latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0201-crystal-cathedral-sale-20120201,0,6778930.story

Filii, you had said a few posts back:

In fact, my concern is that they would wish to apply some form of pressure or protest against the Diocese precisely because they will not have any formal avenue of (name removed by moderator)ut. You know how society is like these days.

I thank thee, good sir, but alas, it is in situations like these when I would rather wish I were not vindicated.

That’s certainly an unexpected turn of events. I expected some people to be lobbying and organizing public prayers against the deal, but I didn’t think they would resort to pulling out some secret document at the very last minute. The article has a point when it says that the timing is very strange when the deal was already done. This all sounds very fishy to me.

Beginning Wednesday, the diocese will incur higher loan interest charges of $1,768.95 per day, according to court documents. That is nearly triple the interest it had been paying.

What are they playing at? For every day they delay this, the Diocese bleeds thousands of dollars. This money comes from the donations of the good people of the Diocese. It doesn’t fall freely from the sky.

You owe no apology Tevere. None of us could have predicted this coming, but I thank you for your astute observation in following this news item.

I’m not sure if it may surprise you, but I am no local, and by that I mean I am neither a resident within the Diocese of Orange nor that of America at all.

 

[crcurrie]

I am a bit curious about the statement at the conclusion. Monsignor Holquin states that he was not aware of any other Protestant church which was later converted into a Catholic church. I guess I find that surprising, but I am not aware of any instances. Does anyone here know of an example or two?

The Dominican parish in Detroit, St. Dominic’s, was once two Protestant churches. The current church building connected the two edifices. They must have been small because even the combined church isn’t terribly large. This was done decades ago, and today, in this inner-city neighborhood, the surrounding neighborhoods have all disappeared. Only the church and its tiny congregation remain.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Strangely, this article is dated one day earlier to 31st January 2012, but it suggests that their attempt to block the sale has failed.

ocregister.com/news/congregation-338090-cathedral-lease.html

During an emergency hearing, no one from the congregation was able to prove that the 99-year lease exists.

Apparently this whole effort led by the same pastor who led the prayer for a miracle to stop the sale in the article I had sent you earlier. I believe this is the “miracle” she is pulling out of her hat.

I wonder what God feels about her cooking up this story to make it seem that God answered their prayers, only to show to the world that it was a lie. She would be guilty of using God to fool her followers, and this will only damage their belief in God’s power of miracles.

 

[TevereNauta]

Strangely, this article is dated one day earlier to 31st January 2012, but it suggests that their attempt to block the sale has failed.

ocregister.com/news/congregation-338090-cathedral-lease.html

Apparently this whole effort led by the same pastor who led the prayer for a miracle to stop the sale in the article I had sent you earlier. I believe this is the “miracle” she is pulling out of her hat.

I wonder what God feels about her cooking up this story to make it seem that God answered their prayers, only to show to the world that it was a lie. She would be guilty of using God to fool her followers, and this will only damage their belief in God’s power of miracles.

Good sleuthing Filii. I shouldn’t wonder that the anti-sale article came from the L.A. Times, well known for its less-than-honest portrayal of all things Catholic.

A last-minute attempt to block the sale of the Crystal Cathedral failed Monday.

…seems to say it all. I guess those intrepid journalists over there at the Times were just trying to stir the pot, so to speak. Ms. Schuller’s ‘miracle’ is indeed very suspicious, and I pray that she is not being supported, tacitly, by the very real forces who do everything they can to attack the church—either in the open or in secret. That would be most un-Christian of her.

If she had kept this up we might have had to organize an impromptu inquisition! Puts the pillory away

Let’s just pray things continue to move forward then, friends, this new cathedral is a remarkably positive sign for the Diocese of Orange.

 

[TevereNauta]

Well friends, the sale has gone through, it is a ‘done deal’. It’s been a long road in the purchase, and now the long road of remodeling begins (see earlier in the thread for the diocesan newspaper’s scheme to transfigure the cathedral.

From the Orange County register:

ocregister.com/news/cathedral-338810-diocese-congregation.html

The Crystal Cathedral, one of the nation’s best-known Protestant churches, is now owned by the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange…

 

[Filii_Dei]

Good sleuthing Filii. I shouldn’t wonder that the anti-sale article came from the L.A. Times, well known for its less-than-honest portrayal of all things Catholic.

…seems to say it all. I guess those intrepid journalists over there at the Times were just trying to stir the pot, so to speak. Ms. Schuller’s ‘miracle’ is indeed very suspicious, and I pray that she is not being supported, tacitly, by the very real forces who do everything they can to attack the church—either in the open or in secret. That would be most un-Christian of her.

If she had kept this up we might have had to organize an impromptu inquisition! Puts the pillory away

Let’s just pray things continue to move forward then, friends, this new cathedral is a remarkably positive sign for the Diocese of Orange.

Well friends, the sale has gone through, it is a ‘done deal’. It’s been a long road in the purchase, and now the long road of remodeling begins (see earlier in the thread for the diocesan newspaper’s scheme to transfigure the cathedral.

From the Orange County register:

ocregister.com/news/cathedral-338810-diocese-congregation.html

 

[Filii_Dei]

Well friends, the sale has gone through, it is a ‘done deal’. It’s been a long road in the purchase, and now the long road of remodeling begins (see earlier in the thread for the diocesan newspaper’s scheme to transfigure the cathedral.

From the Orange County register:

ocregister.com/news/cathedral-338810-diocese-congregation.html

Indeed it has! A new chapter. I’m interested to see what plans the Diocese has in store. The existing building poses a monumental (no pun intended!) challenge, but it would be good to see how they plan to rehabilitate it into orthodoxy.

The Crystal Cathedral, one of the nation’s best-known Protestant churches, is now owned by the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange…

Poetic.

 

[GlobalWolf]

True enough about the variety of Cathredrae Wolf. However, as the posted story points out absolutely clearly:

From this we may deduce that the seating ‘as is’ is not conducive to Catholic Liturgy, and therefore will be changed.

I’m also fascinated that people continue to use the opportunity of a great event for the Church—like the purchase of the Crystal Cathedral for the literally thriving Diocese of Orange—to make unfounded attacks against Our Lady of the Angels and against the “Spirit of Vatican II”. Huh? Our Lady of the Angels is a holy and awe inspiring cathedral, if someone says they don’t like the aesthetics fine, but you have no right to call it ‘non-Catholic’ because of the architecture. Then again I remember, oh yah, this is the internet, not the real world.

I didn’t mean to be calling any of the structures non-Catholic. Actually, I’m not a stickler on the design of church buildings as long as they can at least be taken as good-faith efforts to create a beautiful structure for the worship of the Lord, and as long as it’s possible to conduct a Catholic Mass inside of them (even if I, personally, think they look like '80s airports ). Our Lady of the Angels is actually a very beautiful structure, at least in my opinion, all joking about cubism aside. I differ somewhat on the Crystal Cathedral, especially on the “prayer spire”, and the inside is definitely going to need real work, but I don’t believe that it’s going to be somehow spiritually harmful or anything strange like that. I mean, at the end of the day it’s a building that someone evidently likes greatly. Not all Catholic cathedrals have to have towering Gothic spires or massive stained glass windows. This is 2012, not 1512, and church architecture is going to move along just like everything else.

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

but the Holy Father did approve the purchase.

For all those who believe that the Holy Father is inerrant in all areas, besides the traditionally definied dogmatic faith and moral questions, I present to you another example of his fine judgement inside beautiful church in downtown London, England occuring for the past last 5 years.

youtube.com/watch?v=h2k2k3ocRuQ

It is indeed fascinating what his holiness approves of these days.

 

[Filii_Dei]

I didn’t mean to be calling any of the structures non-Catholic. Actually, I’m not a stickler on the design of church buildings as long as they can at least be taken as good-faith efforts to create a beautiful structure for the worship of the Lord, and as long as it’s possible to conduct a Catholic Mass inside of them (even if I, personally, think they look like '80s airports ). Our Lady of the Angels is actually a very beautiful structure, at least in my opinion, all joking about cubism aside. I differ somewhat on the Crystal Cathedral, especially on the “prayer spire”, and the inside is definitely going to need real work, but I don’t believe that it’s going to be somehow spiritually harmful or anything strange like that. I mean, at the end of the day it’s a building that someone evidently likes greatly. Not all Catholic cathedrals have to have towering Gothic spires or massive stained glass windows. This is 2012, not 1512, and church architecture is going to move along just like everything else.

I often deride dioceses for building new churches and cathedrals in a “modernist” style that does little to glorify God but simply produce a staid building that looks and feels nothing holy, but I give the Crystal Cathedral the benefit of the doubt because it is a unique case.

From what I understand, the Diocese of Orange direly needed a new cathedral. Their current cathedral is a small building that is smaller than many parish churches. However, to build a new cathedral, they were facing a bill in excess of $200 million. In these times of economic recession, there probably wouldn’t have been a new cathedral at all.

Enter the sale of the Crystal Cathedral. Now, they get a ready-made building for $50-odd million, with all furnishings complete. Despite its rather unattractive exterior, it is a steal. Contrast this with the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels, which was heavily beset with allegations of overspending and an incredible final bill of $250 million. The Diocese of Orange does not have the same deep pockets to dip into, and they had to work within their limited means. The Crystal Cathedral isn’t the prettiest thing in the world, but it’s better than nothing. (Though some may argue nothing is better than the Crystal Cathedral. )

In any case, I contend your suggestion that “church architecture is going to move along just like anything else”. Yes, it may evolve, but it needs to continue to draw upon the rich tradition of symbolism. Even from the oldest Romanesque churches to the newest neo-Baroque structures, you can tell that they have developed within the same hermeneutic and for the same intention: to construct a distinctive, unique, majestic temple of worship. The same cannot be said for many churches in the modern style.

For all those who believe that the Holy Father is inerrant in all areas, besides the traditionally definied dogmatic faith and moral questions, I present to you another example of his fine judgement inside beautiful church in downtown London, England occuring for the past last 5 years.

youtube.com/watch?v=h2k2k3ocRuQ

It is indeed fascinating what his holiness approves of these days.

What does this have to do with the Pope? And what does the Archbishop of Westminster, England have anything to do with the future Cathedral of the Diocese of Orange, California?

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

What does this have to do with the Pope? And what does the Archbishop of Westminster, England have anything to do with the future Cathedral of the Diocese of Orange, California?

youtube.com/watch?v=Ne5ELk9WYlE&feature=related

The next video should answer that question.

 

[Filii_Dei]

youtube.com/watch?v=Ne5ELk9WYlE&feature=related

The next video should answer that question.

You and your videos have answered nothing. I believe you haven’t noticed that this thread is about the future cathedral of Orange, California, United States of America. Your issue is a whole ocean away. It is utterly irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

To add fuel to the fire, you have even tried to implicate the Pope in an issue that is at most a diocesan-level problem. Neither of your videos even mention the Pope, much less of him approving anything at all.

If you have an gripe with Archbishop Nichols, then I suggest that you take the initiative and responsibility as a Catholic to bring it up with him yourself. Angrily complaining about it on the internet achieves nothing. If you absolutely must discuss this, then you should create your own thread, not hijack others.

 

[Filii_Dei]

In a new news flash, it appears that the challenge of converting the Crystal Cathedral has certainly not been lost on the Diocese. Even Matthew Alderman - whom I greatly respect for his extensive work in restoring and uplifting sacred architecture and designs - recognises the difficulty behind the work that is yet to come.

“It would be hard to imagine a more symbolic project than this one,” said Matthew Alderman, a graduate of the University of Notre Dame’s classical-design program and an architect at Cram and Ferguson Architects in Concord, Mass. The firm specializes in traditional church designs.

“What we are going to see at the Crystal Cathedral is sort of like a collision between the therapeutic American Protestantism of the television age with all of the symbolism, art and ancient traditions of the Catholic Church and its worship.”

kypost.com/dpp/lifestyle/religion/Transforming-the-Crystal-Cathedral_68398164

 

[Filii_Dei]

Also, tracing the story back a bit further, I’ve managed to find Matthew Alderman’s article which he wrote for The Living Church, an Anglican publication. He even tries his hand at giving the interior a conceptual makeover. It is rather ironic that it requires some innovation to cover up excessive innovation.

Interestingly, he advises against ignorantly throwing in traditional designs without due regard to the context of the space.

While traditional styles can often be mixed within historic interiors, the modernistic movement was such a destructive act of self-exile that great care must be used when adding traditional elements to a dated modernistic interior. Plopping down a Gothic altarpiece into a 1968 vintage ecclesiastical wigwam usually just makes the wigwam look worse.

I pretty much agree with him. Purely traditional designs in a modernist building won’t make the interior look more orthodox. Instead, it alienates the furnishings from the building, and makes the cathedral look more like a museum than a house of worship. Instead, to seek harmony in the interior, it would be good to adopt his approach.

Instead, renovators must coax out whatever small bit of potential might be present in embryonic form in an existing modernistic church. Hybrid or transitional styles which straddle the line between architectural modernism and traditional culture are useful here, as they allow a degree of iconographic reverse engineering.

It’s hard for me not to respect Alderman even more after this. The Diocese of Orange would gain a lot from hiring him, I believe.

livingchurch.org/meetinghouse-house-god

 

[Dale_M]

It’s hard for me not to respect Alderman even more after this. The Diocese of Orange would gain a lot from hiring him, I believe.

Hiring a traditionalist such as Alderman might be a wise move. It could help quiet some of the uneasiness about the use of the Crystal Cathedral, and its conversion into a Catholic cathedral.

However, I wonder if Alderman didn’t lower his chances by voicing such open hostility to the building.