The Cure of Ars on dancing

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tasha
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Tasha

Guest
Hi. I just read a sermon by the Cure of Ars. He discusses the evils of dancing. I found it disturbing. Is it a sin to dance? I never thought so, but this sermon is quite clear:

“*Ah, you say, you are making more of it than there really is! I say too much about it? Very well, then. Listen. Did the Holy Fathers of the Church say too much about it? St. Ephraim tells us that dancing is the perdition of girls and women, the blinding of men, the grief of angels, and the joy of the devils. Dear God, can anyone really have their eyes bewitched to such an extent that they will still want to believe that there is no harm in it, while all the time it is the rope by which the Devil pulls the most souls into Hell?”
*
He goes on to chastise parents that let their children dance. It gets pretty heavy:

"The Council of Aix-la-Chapelle forbids dancing, even at weddings. And St. Charles Borromeo, the Archbishop of Milan, says that three years of penance were given to someone who had danced and that if he went back to it, he was threatened with excommunication. If there were no harm in it, then were the Holy Fathers and the Church mistaken?"

Can anyone shed some light on this??? I am afraid to dance now! I always considered dancing a wholesome activity. :confused:
 
Tasha said:
Hi. I just read a sermon by the Cure of Ars. He discusses the evils of dancing. I found it disturbing. Is it a sin to dance? I never thought so, but this sermon is quite clear:

“*Ah, you say, you are making more of it than there really is! I say too much about it? Very well, then. Listen. Did the Holy Fathers of the Church say too much about it? St. Ephraim tells us that dancing is the perdition of girls and women, the blinding of men, the grief of angels, and the joy of the devils. Dear God, can anyone really have their eyes bewitched to such an extent that they will still want to believe that there is no harm in it, while all the time it is the rope by which the Devil pulls the most souls into Hell?”
*
He goes on to chastise parents that let their children dance. It gets pretty heavy:

"The Council of Aix-la-Chapelle forbids dancing, even at weddings. And St. Charles Borromeo, the Archbishop of Milan, says that three years of penance were given to someone who had danced and that if he went back to it, he was threatened with excommunication. If there were no harm in it, then were the Holy Fathers and the Church mistaken?"

Can anyone shed some light on this??? I am afraid to dance now! I always considered dancing a wholesome activity. :confused:
Click to expand...
I can not shed much more light on this than you have already stated except to say that you can be doubly sure that if Saint John Vianney the Cure of Ars said that liturgical dancing was morally wrong I would take his word for it. Incidentally; I have a number of the Cure de Ars books put out by Tan Publishing. Can you tell where you quoted your source from ?
God Bless !
 
centurionguard said:
I can not shed much more light on this than you have already stated except to say that you can be doubly sure that if Saint John Vianney the Cure of Ars said that liturgical dancing was morally wrong I would take his word for it. Incidentally; I have a number of the Cure de Ars books put out by Tan Publishing. Can you tell where you quoted your source from ?
God Bless !
Click to expand...
The Cure of Ars was not referring to ‘liturgical dancing’. He was talking about ‘secular dancing’.
 
I found the article on a Catholic website. It’s a nice website that sells sacramentals. The article was not discussing liturgical dancing, but going to dances, etc.
 
I’m not finding anything in Church Doctrine forbiding dancing. It’s sort of confusing the way that this was written.

It would seem as though he was talking at one point about how men shouldn’t dance. Which for a time in history dancing was considered something women only did and the men shouldn’t do.

Another part seems like he was talking about liturgical dancing meaning they didn’t want dancing during mass. Which I can understand, even if dance is somehow artistically injected into a mass, the Priest cannnot take part.

Also, it seems like he might be talking about secular dancing.

The women of Israel danced after they crossed the Red Sea (Ex. 15:20), and David danced before the Ark of the Covenant (2 Kings 6:12-17).

It could also be possible that the word “dancing” had some other meaning to the people that time. 🤷
 
Tasha said:
Hi. I just read a sermon by the Cure of Ars. He discusses the evils of dancing. I found it disturbing. Is it a sin to dance? I never thought so, but this sermon is quite clear:

“*Ah, you say, you are making more of it than there really is! I say too much about it? Very well, then. Listen. Did the Holy Fathers of the Church say too much about it? St. Ephraim tells us that dancing is the perdition of girls and women, the blinding of men, the grief of angels, and the joy of the devils. Dear God, can anyone really have their eyes bewitched to such an extent that they will still want to believe that there is no harm in it, while all the time it is the rope by which the Devil pulls the most souls into Hell?”
*
He goes on to chastise parents that let their children dance. It gets pretty heavy:

"The Council of Aix-la-Chapelle forbids dancing, even at weddings. And St. Charles Borromeo, the Archbishop of Milan, says that three years of penance were given to someone who had danced and that if he went back to it, he was threatened with excommunication. If there were no harm in it, then were the Holy Fathers and the Church mistaken?"

Can anyone shed some light on this??? I am afraid to dance now! I always considered dancing a wholesome activity. :confused:
Click to expand...
I think his outlook on dancing reflected the situation in the community he served as pastor.From what I’ve read, his parish was in bad shape when the Cure arrived & the local dances were occasions of sin.
I don’t think all dances are sinful but have witnessed some very “dirty dancing” by teenagers that certainly qualifies as objectively sinful.:eek:
 
OTOH, St. Francis de Sales said that the right intention could make a bad act neutral, or a neutral act virtuous, and he specifically mentioned dancing.

Remember Our Lord Jesus Christ attended the wedding and feast in Cana, and there was certainly dancing there. In fact, among pious Jews it’s considered a mitzvah to dance at a wedding!
 
06convert said:
The women of Israel danced after they crossed the Red Sea (Ex. 15:20), and David danced before the Ark of the Covenant (2 Kings 6:12-17).
Click to expand...
There is a variety of other mentions to dancing in the bible. Some of my favorites:

*There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens. A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant. A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build. A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance. *(Ecclesiastes 3:1-4).

Thus says the LORD: The people that escaped the sword have found favor in the desert. As Israel comes forward to be given his rest, the LORD appears to him from afar: With age-old love I have loved you; so I have kept my mercy toward you. Again I will restore you, and you shall be rebuilt, O virgin Israel; Carrying your festive tambourines, you shall go forth* dancing** with the merrymakers. … The LORD shall ransom Jacob, he shall redeem him from the hand of his conqueror. Shouting, they shall mount the heights of Zion, they shall come streaming to the LORD’S blessings: The grain, the wine, and the oil, the sheep and the oxen; They themselves shall be like watered gardens, never again shall they languish. Then the virgins shall make merry and** dance**, and young men and old as well. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will console and gladden them after their sorrows. I will lavish choice portions upon the priests, and my people shall be filled with my blessings, says the LORD. *(Jeremiah 31:2-14).

Give praise with blasts upon the horn, praise him with harp and lyre.
Give praise with tambourines and* dance**, praise him with flutes and strings.
Give praise with crashing cymbals, praise him with sounding cymbals.*
(Psalm 150:3-5).

From Christ’s parable of the two brothers and the good father (the Prodigal Son parable):
But his father ordered his servants, ‘Quickly bring the finest robe and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Take the fattened calf and slaughter it. Then let us celebrate with a feast, because this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.’ Then the celebration began. Now the older son had been out in the field and, on his way back, as he neared the house, he heard the sound of music and dancing. He called one of the servants and asked what this might mean. The servant said to him, 'Your brother has returned and your father has slaughtered the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound. (Luke 15:22-27).
 
Cracker_Mom said:
I think his outlook on dancing reflected the situation in the community he served as pastor.From what I’ve read, his parish was in bad shape when the Cure arrived & the local dances were occasions of sin.
I don’t think all dances are sinful but have witnessed some very “dirty dancing” by teenagers that certainly qualifies as objectively sinful.:eek:
Click to expand...
Yes, when he arrived his church was in shambles and the parishoners never came to Mass, the men spent all their time in bars, etc.

I have a feeling that the dances he was discussing were just a prelude to fornication and adultery–which is quite often the case nowadays also! Women wouldn’t be heading out to clubs without any underwear if this wasn’t the case!

My daughter takes ballet classes and I don’t consider that sinful, but the dancing that goes on in clubs and even at events like prom certainly could be. It used to be that Catholic teens were told to “leave room for their guardian angels” when dancing–ie, don’t stand too close. The kind of ballroom dancing that you might learn at a rec center would probably be fine, but some of the dancing and costumes on shows like “Dancing with the Stars” or at ballroom dancing contests are at least a near occasion of sin!

In this and many other situations, prudence and moderation are called for. I don’t think I will forbid my children from going to school dances, but I will certainly caution them strongly if they want to start hanging at clubs when they are older! :eek:
 
I did a search on some of the supposed quotations from Augustine found on that same website and the only matches were other dubious looking websites. They all have almost the same text and no references.

I myself would dismiss these claims since they are without a reference. For all we know they could be discussing liturgical dancing or grave dancing and the website authors have taken their quotations out of context.

Of course anything we do should be for the glory of God, so dancing should be done in a chaste manner.
 
Then there’s St Theresa of Avila who was known herself to dance and play on the castanets while she did so (not sure what kind of dancing - the only thing I can think of to compare it to is flamenco, but I doubt that’s what she would’ve been doing).
 
Yes, I think he was referring to social dancing. The kind they do in night clubs, today.

In Jesus’ day, if they danced at all, men danced with men, and women with women. You know, like in Fiddler on the Roof. 😃
 
The website where you got the Cure quotes from engages in simony. It sells blessings.

It shows you just what kind of website that is: non-Catholic.
 
Um, but the posters are correct. St. John Vianney launched a campaign against dancing in his diocese. The particulars are recounted in his biography entitled, The Cure D’Ars by Abbe Francis Trochu. It is published by Tan Books.

His campaign is described in detail in Chapter V. It is rather amusing. For instance, it describes how he thought that he who does away with the fiddle, will do away with the dance as well. So, he intercepts the fiddler on the way to a dance and offers him double the fee to NOT go to the dance.

This guy would withhold the sacrament to penitents who engaged in what he thought were serious sins (especially recidtivism) for years, at a time. One woman, he withheld the Sacrament for six years running because, though the people had banished dancing from Ars by then, she would, once a year, and once a year only, go to visit relatives in another village and go to to their big dance. For this one infraction, the Cure would deny her absolution.

This is great:

“One Sunday a ball was about to open in the village square. More than that, a rustic pageant was being organized, which was ever popular in that district. It was called “Mener l’ane”, and took place when a wife had beaten her husband. Suddenly, M. Vianney was seen leaving his house. He had scarcely crossed the space separating the presbytery from the church when fear seized the people and scattered them in every direction. ‘They fled like a flock of pigeons,’ M. Vianney used to say laughingly, whenever he related the incident. It was the end of that feast.” (pg 147)

What a priest!

And, this is off topic, but I love this, just love it: It is about his war against profanation of Sunday by working…

“On certain Sundays, contrary to his usual practice, he could be seen to leave the church and to take one of the roads close by. In this way, one Sunday in July, he suddenly came upon a man who was taking in his crop. Ashamed at being caught, the peasant tried to hide himself behind his cart. With an accent of intense grief, the Cure said to the man, whom he had recognized: ‘O my friend, you seem very much surprised to find me here… but the good God see you at all times; he it is whom you must fear.’ That evening, instead of the usual homily, he forcibly inveighed against Sunday work. ‘Go,’ he cried with biting sarcsm, ‘go through the fields of those who work today; they always have land to sell!’ He ofen spoke in this strain and with such vehemence that ‘he lost his voice’.” (pg. 143).
 
I read one book that said he was arguing with a tavern owner that the tavern should be closed. The times were hard and the tavern owner said, “But I have to live!”.

To which John Vianney said, “Yes, but you have to die too!”

I thought that was pretty funny, but seriously, it was a different time and it’s good to read about the saints, but ultimately we get our moral direction of what is right and wrong from church teachings, not from 150 year old anecdotes.

By the way, I love John Vianney and think he’s great!

JMP
 
You are right. He seems rather harsh, even scrupulous. But, I suppose in God’s eyes, it is better to overdo it than underdo it. The ancient fathers seem way over the top, too. In the same book, the Cure mentions that it is written where a penitent received 3 years penance for dancing just once.

And from what I understand, confession was no small matter. If you committed a sin ( I suppose they meant a mortal sin, or at least I hope so), you spent your first year of penance banned from the inside of the church. You had to sit on the steps during Mass, and beg passersby to pray for you.

The second year, you were allowed into church, but had to leave during the consecration.

Then, I forget what you did, but, before you were absolved, you had to publicly admit your fault. All this while fasting on bread and water, and doing whatever else they assigned you, like repeating Psalm 51 three times a day, and whatnot. Pretty stiff stuff, when you figure you get a pat on the cheek, and a now, now for pretty much anything you do.

I don’t believe they went to confession for venial sins, but, I’m not sure of that. It just makes me wonder.

Anyway, I don’t like the night clubs, but I’ve allowed my son to attend a well-chaperoned dance at the local Catholic high school. I think I am going to be sorry I’ve allowed them to watch some of the programs on TV that I have. To teach them theology of the body, but let them see joking and trivializing it on television seems hypocritical to me. But, they can’t be recluses either. Sigh. It’s so tough, these days.
 
I think I read somewhere that when John Vianney was doing his formation, there was a tendency to scrupulosity in the Church. So, much of his teaching was very strict.

Dancing in moderation and with modesty is fine. Our former pastor used to lead hip hop dances at Catholic youth conferences. And, he is one of the most devout and orthodox priests with whom I’ve ever been acquainted.

Of course, if dancing tempts anyone to sin, that person should not engage in it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top