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Ailina
Guest
Hearing that a bishop has been arrested on child porn charges is not criticism. It is shocking and terribly discouraging. That the hands of such a person also passes out the eucharist at mass makes me wonder if it’s all a big sham. That is not criticism either, but a shaking of my faith. It really makes me wonder if I can trust.
If there were no criticisms, there would be abuse of power.
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tgm21234
Guest
I wonder if the author had your criticism in mind. I can’t believe he thought no one would bring up the subject of child abuse.
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Crumpy
Guest
I think there’s something illogical about this article.
Sure, the complainers eventually strayed from the faith, but wasn’t it because of the disobedient bishops and priests?
That’s all you need is a bad example to plant that idea in your own mind, that licentious conduct must be OK.
No one talks about this particular thing, but I think it’s related to what I learned in Psychology 101, decades ago, namely, cognitive dissonance. That is the problem of gazing on a contradiction – a bishop or priest acting immorally – is such a contradiction.
When you find that one big contradiction, it makes you skeptical about everything else about that person.
David Letterman is not a saintly person, but his recent admissions make you feel what? that you want to watch more of him? or do you get a creepy feeling and decide to watch the late movie? I’m less likely to give him the benefit of the doubt than probably before.
If priests and bishops are public sinners, and Morrow says we should stick with 'em, then does that mean we should hang around with other people of questionable or doubtable character?
I say, clean house and get some holy priests.
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Corki
Guest
I am not picking on you but your post shows the great need there is for catechesis among the faithful.
First, the idea that the Consecration might be in doubt based on the personal holiness (or lack of) the priest is wrong. The priest might be the most horrible, unrepentant sinner and the Consecration will still occur; the Body and Blood of Christ will be present on the altar. The priest is a conduit, acting in persona Christi, not active through any power of his own. This is one of the protections the Holy Spirit guarantees for the Church.
Second, a vocation to the priesthood does not mean the man is *already *holy. A vocation to the priesthood, like one to the married, single or consecrated life, is a call to the path that is the most likely to *lead **to *holiness, if we cooperate and stay the course. It is just the first step on that path.
Clergy are as subject to temptation as any other human. Some would say that Satan targets clergy even more. The linked article mentioned that the devil is probably glad at the dissention and judging going on. The devil is *surely *rejoicing at the “success” of leading Bishops and clergy into sin – especially sins that shock the public and shake the faith.
We have to accept responsibility for at least some of the conditions that lead to spiritually dangerous conditions for our priests and Bishops. Instead of living in community with a group of fellow priests, how many priests live alone in a rectory or (worse) apartment? The scandal of large numbers of homosexual entrants into seminaries has caused us to look askance at priests who have close friendships with fellow priests. Since Bishops have been accused of leading “good ole boys” clubs, they are reticent to develop close relationships with their priests or fellow Bishops. Loneliness is an open door to temptation.
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Stylites
Guest
A provincial priest went to visit an anchorite to offer the Eucharist for him. Now someone went to the anchorite and spoke against the priest, so when the latter came according to custom to give him communion, the anchorite, who had been shocked, did not let him in, and the priest went away. Then, behold, a voice came to the anchorite, saying, ‘Men have taken my judgment away from me.’ The anchorite was as though in ecstasy, and he saw a well of gold and a rope of gold and a jug of gold and much water of surpassing quality. Then he saw a leper draw the water and pour it out, and he would gladly have drunk but could not because he who drew the water was leprous. Again a voice came to him saying, ‘Why do you not drink the water? What does it matter if he who draws it is leprous? He only draws it and pours it out.’ Returning to himself and perceiving the meaning of the vision, the anchorite sent for the priest and let him give him communion as usual.
- The Wisdom of the Desert Fathers (Apophthegmata Patrum [perhaps the 5th Century]), #122, Translated by Sister Benedicta Ward, SLG
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Brendan
Guest
Then place you trust in the Eucharist, not necessarily in the hands the give it.
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H_Opey
Guest
I liked his advice.
One problem I have had is to know when to say something (correction) and when not to.
It is obvious that there will be times when things need to be said (as in the abuse scandals/liturgical abuses that render sacrament invalid) but he is right that we can fall into pride and become puffed up with ourselves.
To be able to dispassionately correct someone with charity is a hard thing to do.
One problem I have had is to know when to say something (correction) and when not to.
It is obvious that there will be times when things need to be said (as in the abuse scandals/liturgical abuses that render sacrament invalid) but he is right that we can fall into pride and become puffed up with ourselves.
To be able to dispassionately correct someone with charity is a hard thing to do.
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garysibio
Guest
What’s more important: to live a holy life or to have all of your doctrinal 'T’s crossed and 'I’s dotted?
While not denying the importance of correct doctrine, I’d rather deal with someone like the Waldensians who were trying to be obedient to Christ than that bishop with the kiddie porn who may have known the catechism backwards and forwards. Yes, it is important to pray for leaders who have gone astray but silence is viewed by the public as assent or indifference.
While not denying the importance of correct doctrine, I’d rather deal with someone like the Waldensians who were trying to be obedient to Christ than that bishop with the kiddie porn who may have known the catechism backwards and forwards. Yes, it is important to pray for leaders who have gone astray but silence is viewed by the public as assent or indifference.
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Ailina
Guest
No, I don’t buy that we have to accept responsibility of a priest downloading child porn on his computer. I hate porn. I don’t look at it, I don’t search for it, I have never accidently downloaded it on my computer despite having Internet access for over 10 years.
That bishop, a leader of priests and parishioners, knew what he was doing. He was involved in a law suit regarding sexual abuse of alter boys. He has to bear full responsibility for exposing himself to child porn. I am angry because he has done such a thing, despite being a leader of his faith. I wonder what Jesus would say to him? That porn involved children who were victimized. That is who we should be concerned about, not some lecherous hypocrite.
After all the arguments about receiving communion in the hand or on the tongue here at CA, surely my hands are no less tainted than this bishop?
As for criticism of the clergy, there are many saints besides St. Francis who did indeed criticize the clergy directly. Some of them suffered greatly for doing so and were martyred for the Church.
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Corki
Guest
And that’s not what I said.
I said that we bear some responsibilty for the isolated and lonely living conditions of our priests and clergy. Whether this applies to the particular Bishop to which you refer (who is NOT the subject of this thread), I don’t know. I do know that lonliness and lack of fraternal support make any person more vulnerable to temptation.
So, you don’t do porn. Congratulations. That doesn’t make you sinless.
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JReducation
Guest
Don’t do that to yourself my friend. First, had the Waldensians been truly trying to do the will of God, they would have been submissive to the Church and they were not. Do not place yourself in their position, which can lead to being outside of the Church.
Second, remember that we must always denounce the sin, but leave the judgment of the sinner up to God.
Third, remember the words of our holy Father Francis, especially today as some of us celebrate his solemntiy. “If I were to meet the most sinful priest and an angel, I would first kiss the hand of the priest and then greet the angel. For only through the power of the priest can I see anything of our Lord Jesus Christ, because it is through his power that I can see the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ and only he can forgive my sins.”
The sin of the priest does nothing to harm the character of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, except on a temporal level, but not where it really counts, in the ontological reality.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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RobbyS
Guest
Yes, but it took a private revelation, did it not, to convince the anchorite. There is always the danger that the priest who leads an immoral life will also be a secret unbeliever.
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JReducation
Guest
As the Church teaches, even if a priest becomes a heretic or an apostate, he remains a priest forever. The grace that flows through the priest is not dependent on his faith, but on the sacrament of Holy Orders. Despite his lack of faith in the sacraments, Martin Luther was Father Martin Luther until the day he died. His ordination did not disappear nor did his solemn vows as an Augustinian. We (the Church) still recognize that he died a Catholic priest and a Catholic Augustinian Friar, even though he was excommunicated for being a heretic. There are certain things you cannot undo. Just like you can’t undo a baptism, you can’t undo ordination or religious vows. The most the Church can do is release you from your obligations. She cannot make the reality go away.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JReducation
Guest
I’ll give you a personal example. I’m in solemn vows. If I became a non believer tomorrow and said that I no longer believe in those vows, they would not go away. I would still be a Franciscan until the Church dispensed me from my obligation to those vows. But since I’m an unbeliever, the Church can’t dispense me, because I don’t recognize the authority of the Church. The vows remain in place and I remain a Franciscan, albeit a heretic or apostate.
That’s just an exmaple. I’m ot a heretic or apostate, just in case.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
That’s just an exmaple. I’m ot a heretic or apostate, just in case.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Ailina
Guest
Of course I’m not sinless…just ask my kids. They are ever eager to point out my sins. I too am living alone as a single mother, due to a spouse who abandoned the family three years ago. That doesn’t mean I turn to porn. I saw what porn did to my ex-husband. It is evil. I can only imagine that child porn is worse. What bishop doesn’ t know this, especially one in a diocese that was rocked by the sexual abuse of altar boys? Or are men so weak? I am starting to think they are the weaker sex in that regard.
Btw, are you suggesting that priests should be allowed to marry?
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JReducation
Guest
Of course I’m not sinless…just ask my kids. They are ever eager to point out my sins. I too am living alone as a single mother, due to a spouse who abandoned the family three years ago. That doesn’t mean I turn to porn. I saw what porn did to my ex-husband. It is evil. I can only imagine that child porn is worse. What bishop doesn’ t know this, especially one in a diocese that was rocked by the sexual abuse of altar boys? Or are men so weak? I am starting to think they are the weaker sex in that regard.
**Btw, are you suggesting that priests should be allowed to marry?/**QUOTE]
Bold is mine.
I doubt that marriage is a cure for deviant bvehavior. Any spouse who has been the victim of this knows.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Ailina
Guest
I doubt that marriage is a cure for deviant bvehavior. Any spouse who has been the victim of this knows.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Exaclty, marriage isn’t. Porn entered our marriage, via my husband, and it destroyed our marriage too. Being married doesn’t mean people aren’t tempted by porn. Check out the Family forum and you will see this problem is not unique.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Exaclty, marriage isn’t. Porn entered our marriage, via my husband, and it destroyed our marriage too. Being married doesn’t mean people aren’t tempted by porn. Check out the Family forum and you will see this problem is not unique.
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Corki
Guest
Of course the Bishop (again, not the subject of this thread) knew it was wrong. If he didn’t, it wouldn’t be a sin.
I am not even remotely suggesting that priests should be allowed to marry. That’s nuts. I am just saying that lonliness in clergy is probably more common today than in decades past when more priests lived in groups. And lonliness can lead to vulnerability. Not always, as your case seems to point out, but often.
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JReducation
Guest
You certainly have a valid point about loneliness. In the past, we allowed some of our friars to live alone because they were involved in special ministries. About 10% of them had all kinds of issues, not necessarily sexual, but being unable to pray, becoming so secular that they had a difficult time returning to the community, drinking, sexual issues, territorialism, poor social skills, poor communication skills, and other issues that impaire the life in community. We have stopped that practice. No one is allowed to live outside the community. There must be at least three to make up a community.Of course the Bishop (again, not the subject of this thread) knew it was wrong. If he didn’t, it wouldn’t be a sin.
I am not even remotely suggesting that priests should be allowed to marry. That’s nuts. I am just saying that lonliness in clergy is probably more common today than in decades past when more priests lived in groups. And lonliness can lead to vulnerability. Not always, as your case seems to point out, but often.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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