The Dangers of Centering Prayer

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Dear Teresa,

What an excellent point! … to attend to the distractions! It would certainly reveal that “where our treasure is (as discovered in the distraction), there also is our heart.” Popping them aside in favor of a more spiritual practice of centering would be counter to what the Lord is wanting the person to see. Thanks for mentioning that. Just one more reason, in my book, to dismiss CP as “not for me!”

The initial poster, Grape, had some very alarming things to say to which we should pay good heed, I believe. I did a lot of searching on the Web last evening, where a quite a few articles on CP would make one’s hair stand up! Until the Church gives some worthy reason to believe this practice is beneficial and the fruits are obvious in one’s life as conducive to sanctity, I will not even give it a try. :nope:

Thanks, Teresa,
Carole
 
Joysong you put into words something I too have experienced but hadn’t thought about. After communion I do sometimes think to myself, “Jesus is inside me now,” but at adoration I think of Jesus as outside me. I have read and re-read p. 397 of the Larkin article, where he discusses some things St Teresa says in the Life chapters 4 and 9:

Her prayer was founded on the presence of Christ within her. The prayer was not an imagining of his presence; it was a realization of his presence experienced in faith.

and

Teresa described her early gospel reflections in this way: “since I could not reflect discursively with the intellect, I strove to picture Christ within me in those scenes where I saw him more alone” (L, 9,4). This picturing is not speculative but personal; there was no picture (she could not use her imagination: L, 9, 6) but a sense of his person which was quickly integrated with the real Presence within her soul.

Springbreeze, I was wondering where you were, good to have you with us.
 
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Joysong:
With a startle, I understood that one could gaze on the monstrance, instead of upon a sacred word as taught in CP.
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Boy, you really hit home with this one. There’s so much I can say about this . . . but not in such a public setting.

What I can say is this: I hear you when you talk about Christ “in you” and “over there.” But I guess that has never been a problem for me . . . for I see him very much in both places . . . even at the same time . . . and especially at adoration for I have come to see that as the greatest joy in my life.

As for the monstrance being like the sacred word, well that’s kind of how I see it . . . at least to the point where there’s any technique at all in my prayer.

Oftentimes at adoration I will find myself very still, peaceful, quiet, utterly natural . . . usually with my eyes closed. Sometimes I’m not even aware of any thoughts at all. At other times, I might be deluged with thoughts. Then, without even thinking about it, I’ll look at the monstrance for just a few moments . . . certainly not a “long” time. Many times, but not always, after this brief look - the peace, calm and stillness will return. Please know I’m not really conciously aware of doing any of this . . . it just happens that way for me.

So I guess in this sense, the monstrance has been for me what the sacred word tries to be for the CP folks.

Carole, if I can work up the guts I’d like to PM you about something.

Dave.
 
One of the best descriptions I’ve ever heard about contemplation wasn’t even made by a Carmelite 🙂

I might be wrong but I think it was St. John Vianny when he asked the poor peasant sitting in the first pew what exactly he “does” every day sitting in church all the time.

The peasant’s response went something like this: “I don’t ‘do’ anything - I just look at him and he looks at me.”

And this “looking” is both internal (tending to the indwelling Trinity in silent adoration) and external (gazing on the real presence of Christ as contained in the Blessed Sacrament).

Well I’ve probably said waaaaaaaay to much for my tastes so I’ll stop now.

Best wishes to all.
Dave.
 
Dear Dave,

You honor me with your trust and sharing your inmost experience! It may be that the Lord is moving you to confide this to me, for I never thought about the monstrance until this morning. There is probably more to learn from the Spirit, so let’s just pray for the moment and ask the Lord to enlighten us both. I remember one of our saints (Teresa?) advising the recipient of these favors to share it with their confessor (whom they choose). When this is discussed together, the Lord is present among them and will cause more light to come forth for the benefit of the person.

I will give it a lot of prayer, and in light of the Pentecost feast day coming soon, we can trust that God will be gracious in opening up a door to understanding.

In His love,
Carole
 
Dear Buzzcut,

I’m glad to see that I am not alone in the manner we focus at adoration. http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
From page 397 of Larkin’s article: Her (St. Teresa) solution was to have a book at hand, to read it as needed, and to use holy pictures, natures scenes, and above all, to use simple gospel reflections, especially to “represent” Christ interiorly. All these strategies belong to the same one category of image. They do not include a mantra.
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I can witness that this was my method as well, and I believe that is similar to the teaching of lectio divina. If we are careful to use books that dilate the heart and infuse love and engender virtue, I cannot believe the Lord will fail to give tastes of His presence to His loved one who seeks Him so ardently. At these special moments, the book is laid aside and true loving mental prayer takes place with God. When the soul becomes arid again, she resumes reading the book (or vocal prayer) and moves on to other reflections. (This was taught by Osuna, also)

As you know, when one is faithful day after day to these moments of communion with Him and fidelity to His inspirations, the visitations change gradually into higher forms of prayer, God willing. The fruit of it is a natural, abiding attentiveness to God’s presence within, 24/7 as Dave said - when we sleep, when we awake, when we work, etc. I believe this is laying the proper foundation, and growing – “first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear,” as scripture mentions.

It seems more apparent to me that centering is a shortcut that is bereft of this holy desire and growth in love that makes the journey so sweet as one comes to know the Lord. It makes good sense to me, therefore, that a person who is *advanced *in spirituality, as Father Dubay mentioned, would also have difficulty centering and could be hindered by it, for the soul would have already arrived at the goal of centering, which is to be habitually attentive in faith to God present within.

Buzzcut, you are one of the most avid searchers I have met in a long time, and I have no doubt God is leading you with His utmost loving providence. I would love to meet you again in a year or so and see how your wings have taken flight! Our mighty eagle!

http://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/ani/love.gif Carole
 
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DBT:
One of the best descriptions I’ve ever heard about contemplation wasn’t even made by a Carmelite 🙂

I might be wrong but I think it was St. John Vianny when he asked the poor peasant sitting in the first pew what exactly he “does” every day sitting in church all the time.

The peasant’s response went something like this: “I don’t ‘do’ anything - I just look at him and he looks at me.”

And this “looking” is both internal (tending to the indwelling Trinity in silent adoration) and external (gazing on the real presence of Christ as contained in the Blessed Sacrament).

Well I’ve probably said waaaaaaaay to much for my tastes so I’ll stop now.

Best wishes to all.
Dave.
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Dear Dave

YOU ARE RIGHT!!!

We need not DO anything at all. We dispose ourselves to God’s grace by offering our will in submission to His and through this grow in grace and virtue by pure gift and so grow in prayer by pure gift, we actually DO nothing, but one simple action of submission to His Will and the only thing that can bring this about is FAITH. First we believe, then we desire out of belief to please and love God and in all things it is pure GIFT from God.

We do nothing but dispose ourselves to His Will and everything else is gift from God. It is the will, the intent and if we will it, we dispose ourselves to God and all the wonders of His gifts, but formerly we do not love the gifts , no, we love God, to seek the gift is vain. We do not seek the gift, what we actually seek is God Whom is known by His gifts…

As the sheep trust the Shephard, so such trust evokes such submission.

Jesus I trust in You.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Joysong, thank you for your kind and supportive words. What you describe is exactly my “method” of prayer in practice, though I put the word method in quotes as it’s not very methodical in practice. As I mentioned in #54, the centering prayer is something that fascinates me, and I admire their work in making contemplative prayer accessible, but it’s not something I actually do, or not as yet. So in practice the one who really taught me to pray is our beloved St Teresa.
 
Teresa -
Hi! Good to see you again. I was hoping to see you around here.

Carol -
I noticed you tried to send me a PM but evidently my inbox is full. I’ve tried several times to delete old messages and it looks like it’s working . . . but I’m still getting error messages about sending and recieving. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks.

Flattop -
Good to see you again this morning. 🙂
 
Hi Dave,

I re-sent it a few moments ago, and you should have received a po-up while on line indicating a PM. The tracking shows it as “unread.” So I hope you got it.

Carole
 
Dear Servant of God,

Nice to see a new face here, and I almost missed your post due to the way I have specified only 10 posts per page.

Yes, perhaps that is why God gave us only one mouth, but two ears 😃 .
 
Dear Joysong, and Buzzcut:

I have taken the time to read Joysong’s stinging criticism below and all her erudite posts since. Unfortunately, my 'risking religion beyond ritual" was her trigger for running to the nearest exit.

Yet, the mystics took great risks venturing beyond ritual in their perceptions of God. St Theresa and St John of the Cross were excoriated and nearly burned at the stake for peer misunderstanding of their mystical writings.

St Francis said he preferred carrying his convent with him, that he’d rather be attending the cathedral of a towering forest, rather than manmade temples of stone.(Even Jesus warned us to worship in spirit and truth, not so much in temples of stone.) St Francis actually rejected ordination as a priest for the same humble reason, that none of the first Apostles were ordained and Jesus wore no collar. By the same token, St Vincent Ferrer was a wonderworking priest who repeatedly denied offers to become bishop.This is realizing religion beyond ritual in the here and now. How easy we misinterpret and condemn this ‘sentiment for simplicity’, as an outright rejection of cathedrals and convents and the hierarchy!
Joysong has slapped me around, but I forgive her for not really understanding what I have written. She may be expressing her fears, her rightful concern for the risks attending one’s ascent from the foothills of human consciousness.On this we agree, that CP is only an introduction to true contemplative prayer. An introductory video of climbing Mt Everest doesn’t begin to address the hazards and rewards of the actual ascent. We learn only in the doing.

Buzzcut has come closer to understanding CP simply because he has immersed himself in its classes. He has bloodied his knees on the ascending path. He deserves our kudos.

Joysong would do well to brace herself for more turmoil if she were to actually study Father Keating’s books. I gather that for her to take a six week course in CP as offered in any Diocese would require great courage. But “The proof is in the pudding”. Only after truly tasting its effects would I gather any trust in her derisive comments of CP, well meaning as they are. We frail humans rush to judgment much too often on the flimsy basis of second-hand ‘authority’, perhaps out of laziness or sloth or convenience.

I agree that CP is a beginner’s primer, but one that has for too long been kept hidden from the laity thirsting for Christ. Ultimately the goal is mystical union with the Triune Godhead. Like crickets we chirp away endlessly in the darkness of evensong, trying to find and achieve union with our mate.Once we do achieve union, we go silent. Silent, loving devotion captures the essence of this mystical union with God.

Frying one’s brain over endless passages in a library on ‘authoritative’ contemplation is a far cry from simplicity of practice. To practice the divine Presence in and out of daily distractions, with occasional foretastes of bliss, and beckoning visions of God, always abiding in chaste love, that is the Path of the Masters too often obfuscated and criticized in erudite verbage from peripheral, casual observers.

I agree that CP is merely an introduction to mystical union. Unfortunately, the majority of Catholics have not been introduced to our rich legacy in mysticism for fear of the risk. Well, the truth is…

‘Nothing ventured, nothing gained.’

Being risk averse is a common, understandable human trait experienced on every level of human endeaver, from investing in stocks to one’s growth in spirituality. Know that the greater risk is our not venturing at all, not investing God-given talents in penetrating to deeper awareness, but burying them in preconceived notions, the result being a loss of comparative interest, and vehemently safeguarding one’s own conceits.

Why do we humans lack faith that God will unerringly guide us in such spiritual adventure? Why are we so anxious to avoid calculated risk? Did not Jesus warn the price for the pearl of Paradise would be great?

I leave you with those disturbing questions to ponder in God.
 
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Weeorphan:
Ultimately the goal is mystical union with the Triune Godhead. Like crickets we chirp away endlessly in the darkness of evensong, trying to find and achieve union with our mate. Once we do achieve union, we go silent. Silent, loving devotion captures the essence of this mystical union with God.
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Where did Jesus instruct us to seek such a union?
Who came up with this ‘ultimate goal’ for man?
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Weeorphan:
To practice the divine Presence in and out of daily distractions, with occasional foretastes of bliss, and** beckoning visions of God**,
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Herein lies the danger. We are not to ‘beckon’ anything from God. We are not to ‘beckon’ for gifts of speaking in tongues, the gift of laying of hands, the gift of visions. They are ‘gifts’ because they are given by God according to His will alone. To beckon to be in union with the triune God seems the ultimate affront to the faith.

We are called to serve the Lord. To serve God. In return we will be rewarded with eternal life in glory with Him. Jesus spoke about living a life which would reunite us with God after our death - NOT during our time here on earth.
 
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Weeorphan:
Frying one’s brain over endless passages in a library on ‘authoritative’ contemplation is a far cry from simplicity of practice. To practice the divine Presence in and out of daily distractions, with occasional foretastes of bliss, and beckoning visions of God, always abiding in chaste love, that is the Path of the Masters too often obfuscated and criticized in erudite verbage from peripheral, casual observers.
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But herein lies the problem to much of what you’re saying. There are many people following along on this thread . . . probably on every possible level of understanding - beginners to those well advanced.

So how do you provide any sort of common framework to guide a discussion like this? I for one would much rather use the Saints - and especially the Doctors - as my guide because they are given to us for a simple reason - they are safe, reliable and true.

I could not imagine a situation that would be beneficial to such a large audience of diverse backgrounds if the discussion delved to far into the realm of personal experience . . . with discussions of competing visions and talks like “when I was in such and such a mansion things went like so and so.” How could anyone trust what was being said . . . even if the author truely felt to the depth of his being what he said was true?

And you talk about “risk?” Just think of the possibility (no probability) of sending some poor unsuspecting soul into error.

Again, the Saints and Doctors are given to us for a very good reason. While I agree with you that the discussion can sometimes come across as a bit dry - just a pale reflection of the “simplicity” you describe . . . I personally don’t see any way around it. But if you have a better way . . . I’d sure like to hear it.
 
Weeorphan,
I have taken the time to read Joysong’s stinging criticism below and all her erudite posts since. Unfortunately, my 'risking religion beyond ritual" was her trigger for running to the nearest exit.
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Isn’t it customary to ask the author to clarify their meaning, rather than make assumptions? And then publicly spread them as truth? You missed my point completely, and printed here what you believe I said and meant, without taking the initiative to ask me.

I do not ever remember seeing in the gospels that Jesus went into the multitude and gave His “Son of God” qualifications before beginning to teach them, nor did He promise paradisal bliss, private revelations, and visions of His Father if we follow HIm. No, He told us to deny ourselves, and pick up our cross daily, taking the “narrow road” that few desire to walk Many prefer the wide path of pleasure, including those who are spiritual-minded, yet succomb to attractions of hidden, mystical pleasures — also a “wide road.”

Using this road of spiritual pleasures to attract others to CP is utterly against every doctrine the saints have put into print . . . and that, my friend, is what has me running to the exits. You do not speak their language. Why then should I trust or believe you, in spite of your qualifications? Be assured, I have no problem loving you as my neighbor, but I do have a problem with the doctrine you present as christian truth taught by the saints…

Your last post is a witness to your (charity?) – the fruit of your CP, I suppose. Through your own words, others will have little difficulty seeing your “qualifications.”

I do not think it is prudent to continue debate with you, for I detect some animosity that says to me you are closed to further discussion. You are free to maintain your own beliefs.

Carole
 
And a last thought Weeorphan

Judgements and credentials seem to be a big under-current in what you have to say. But why should that be important in any of this? Maybe you’re just a bit miffed . . . well then welcome to CA Forums 😃 😃

Finally, please don’t assume that if the individual you criticize prefers to speak behind the veil of the Saints that she lacks experience in such things. Maybe this is just her way of remaining “hidden.” What might seem to you as weakness could in reality be a great strength. Humility maybe?

Weeorphan - I think you might have a lot of good things to say about all this. I sure hope we get to hear it . . . with a fresh start, though.

Your new friend.
Dave.
 
Dear Buzzcut,

YinYangMom’s profile reveals that she is an active Catholic, so I don’t understand why you sent her to the other forum? This example simply reveals to me the diversity of people who read these threads, as DBT was mentioning, and who are at varying levels of spirituality and formation in their faith.

She was right about the error of **beckoning God for visions. **
As for understanding mystical union with God, I had the sense that she was thinking about the current New Age philosophy. It is possible she, like others who read here, may not have the background in understanding our Catholic traditions in this.

And I echo Dave’s sentiments: "And you talk about “risk?” Just think of the possibility (no, probability) of sending some poor unsuspecting soul into error."

Spiritual Directors have an exceedingly weighty responsibility before God not to lead His little ones astray. It is one of St. John’s deep concerns, and I doubt Weeorphan has studied this before promoting it. If he had, he would surely understand where this lady and I are coming from in refuting it. (Ch. 18, Ascent of Mt. Carmel, Bk. II).

🙂 Carole
 
I neglected to post the link from St. John’s Ascent and it would probably help our readers who follow this thread, but do not own the book. It can be read here on line:

catholictreasury.info/Ascent/asc34.htm

Ch 18. Which treats of the harm that certain spiritual masters may do to souls when they direct them not by a good method with respect to the visions aforementioned. Describes also how these visions may cause deception even though they be of God.

The following chapter contains an excellent description for anyone who is receiving extraordinary phenomena as a gift from God. It explains how God must lead the soul from its lowest and most exterior apprehensions of sense, to the highest and most interior communications in pure spirit. He does this step by step, in orderly manner, according to the ability and capacity of the person to receive these gifts.

catholictreasury.info/Ascent/asc33.htm

Ch 17. Wherein is described the purpose and manner of God in His communication of spiritual blessings to the soul by means of the senses.

You will observe rather quickly in this chapter what we have been discussing throughout the thread; that as a rule, there are no shortcuts to advanced prayer. One truly has to lay the proper foundation and proceed step by step in the order God desires, using his reasoning faculties and senses, before advancing to mystical gifts.
 
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