The dead...

[M_Oliver]

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Question. What words in this Scripture indicate immortality occurs IMMEDIATELY after physical death?

Question. Why did Jesus Christ {our Creator} have to wait until the 3rd day to be resurrected from the dead but His creation does not ever die?

 

[ricko]

In the Old Testament, Isaiah 14:9-17 indicates clearly that the dead are conscious, and the New Testament tells the same story. In 1 Peter 3:19, the apostle tells his audience how, after Jesus died on the cross, he “preached to the spirits in prison.” If the dead were aware of nothing, his preaching would have been futile.

So to be absent from the body is not to be unconscious; rather, it enables one to be home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8, Phil. 1:23). The body is just a tent or a tabernacle that does not last (2 Cor. 5:1-4; 2 Pet. 1:13), while man cannot kill the soul (Matt 10:28). Our souls live after the death of our bodies, since John “saw . . . the souls of those slaughtered . . . and they cried with a loud voice, saying . . . and they were told . . .” (Rev. 6:9-11). Because the soul does not die with the flesh, those in heaven are able to offer our prayers to God (Rev. 5:8) and live in happiness (Rev. 14:13).

Those who led an unrighteous life are just as conscious of their punishment as the just are of their joy. If one is in hell, “he shall be tormented with fire and sulfur . . . the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest” (Rev. 14:11). This is an “everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41-46).

Jesus tells his listeners of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man dies and “existing in torments . . . he sees . . . calls out . . . ‘I am in anguish in this blazing fire’” (Luke 16:19-31). As a further illustration, Jesus stated that hell is likened to Gehenna. This Valley of Hinnom was located southeast of Jerusalem and was used as a garbage dump where trash and waste were burned continuously day and night. Jesus informs the listeners that hell is like this, “where the maggot does not die, and fire is not put out” (Mark 9:42-48). It is the place where the wicked are sent, and from this “everlasting fire” (Matt. 18:8) will come “weeping and the gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12). Now, if hell were “a place of rest in hope” as the Watchtower teaches, Jesus would not have chosen such contradictory illustrations to convey this.
Catholic Answers

He also sounds like a JW. So if you are still here, feast your eyes on the above scripture which is only a part of the proof of life after death. The scripture you reference is regarding the body, not the spirit or soul which lives on after death. Like most religions other than the one established by God you do not read the whole bible and take it in context. You can’t pick and choose scripture or you will certainly lose.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Question. What words in this Scripture indicate immortality occurs IMMEDIATELY after physical death?

Question. Why did Jesus Christ {our Creator} have to wait until the 3rd day to be resurrected from the dead but His creation does not ever die?

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do we die ? As to the body, because of sin, we do. But our spirits are alive because of Christ.

Therefore, we are not cut off from Him - and Sheol in the OT is a place where there is no fellowship with God.

Why did Jesus wait ? Presumably, to let there be no doubt that He had indeed died, that He was not playing dead. By being dead, He commends His love to us, because His sharing the penalty threatened to Adam shows, like so much else, how far He was prepared to go for us - so He has shared not in our living alone, not in undergoing horrible suffering alone, not even in being buried; He has shared even in being dead; He was not in a cataleptic trance: He was dead. “The gods of the heathen are not so” - but this God is humble, gracious, & stops at nothing, not even dying & staying dead, to give us every reason to trust in Him.

And because His Death is therefore indisputable, so is the completeness of his victory. It is final, decisive, and irreversible.

So for us, death is a mere detail - it does not end our fellowship with Him at all. So it cannot affect the care of the Blessed for those whom they have left on earth. If it could, there would be no “great cloud of witnesses”, no “spirits of just men made perfect”; yet Hebrews 12 says there are both.

Our bodies will be raised at His Coming - then we shall be complete. ##

 

[JoeyWarren]

M_Oliver, you appear to suffering from the disease of hyper-literalism as the Seventh Day Adventist.

The body is trinitarian.

There is a Soul, Spirit, and Flesh.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole **spirit and soul and body **be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Even Jesus makes a distinction between his soul and his spirit.
Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom **my soul **is well pleased: I will put **my spirit **upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

You have to examine the context when it talks about dead, death, and sleep and what exactly the states are referring to.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by M_Oliver
Question. What words in this Scripture indicate immortality occurs IMMEDIATELY after physical death?

Question. Why did Jesus Christ {our Creator} have to wait until the 3rd day to be resurrected from the dead but His creation does not ever die?

Jesus promised the theif on the cross that he would be in paradise this day. His physical body would not be in paradise, his soul and the spirit would be. The soul is the life.

Also the distinction when the word life is used. at least 4 different greek words are used for life.
One word in particualar is used for both SOUL and LIFE.

Here is an example where the same word is used.

In Matt 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[M_Oliver]

Jesus promised the theif on the cross that he would be in paradise this day. His physical body would not be in paradise, his soul and the spirit would be. The soul is the life.

Also the distinction when the word life is used. at least 4 different greek words are used for life.
One word in particualar is used for both SOUL and LIFE.

Here is an example where the same word is used.

In Matt 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

There is a major flaw in your argument regarding the thief. You base your doctrine on this subject on a simple “comma”. Surely you know that the Greek does not contain punctuation. Punctuation of course was added by translators.

What if it was translated without punctuation?

And he said to him “Truly I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43)

Or what if the translators put the comma in an unbiased location?

And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43)

In both instances it destroys the argument of immediate immortality and shows that Christ was simply referring to the moment ie. TODAY I am telling you this. If we can PROVE gross errors in the translation of words surely we can prove grammatical errors such as this.

The clincher is there is not a second witness anywhere that indicates “immortality” is immediate upon death.

Regarding the life versus soul…It is the same argument. The word MEANS breath in the Greek. Why did the translators feel obligated to use it two different ways in two different verses? The verses make complete sense in the proper translation “breath”.

You can prove this for yourself if you study all the Hebrew and Greek words translatedto spirit, soul, life etc. They ALL have something to do with breath, wind, puff of air, breeze, etc.

God Bless

 

[M_Oliver]

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do we die ? As to the body, because of sin, we do. But our spirits are alive because of Christ.

Therefore, we are not cut off from Him - and Sheol in the OT is a place where there is no fellowship with God.

Why did Jesus wait ? Presumably, to let there be no doubt that He had indeed died, that He was not playing dead. By being dead, He commends His love to us, because His sharing the penalty threatened to Adam shows, like so much else, how far He was prepared to go for us - so He has shared not in our living alone, not in undergoing horrible suffering alone, not even in being buried; He has shared even in being dead; He was not in a cataleptic trance: He was dead. “The gods of the heathen are not so” - but this God is humble, gracious, & stops at nothing, not even dying & staying dead, to give us every reason to trust in Him.

And because His Death is therefore indisputable, so is the completeness of his victory. It is final, decisive, and irreversible.

So for us, death is a mere detail - it does not end our fellowship with Him at all. So it cannot affect the care of the Blessed for those whom they have left on earth. If it could, there would be no “great cloud of witnesses”, no “spirits of just men made perfect”; yet Hebrews 12 says there are both.

Our bodies will be raised at His Coming - then we shall be complete. ##

“We shall not ALL sleep…” 1 Cor 15:51

I have no idea how this can be read and not understood that if “not all sleep” some will. This verse simply tells us that there will be people living in the flesh who witness the second coming. The dead won’t, only those included in the “we shall not all sleep” category, because they will be alive like you and I are right now.

Again. There is nothing that indicates an immortal soul in these verses.

God Bless

 

[M_Oliver]

How come all of your death Scriptures come from the Old Testament?

You made me chuckle. The answer: Christ put a whole lot of information about death there. His call, not mine .

 

[JoeyWarren]

Punctation, grammer, translations, oh my
Punctation, grammer, translations, oh my.

no problem there.

since there is no upper and lower case as well,

The you will have no problem acknowledging Satan, Lucifier or whoever is being talked about as a God, as the God of this world?

2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Cor 4:4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of christ, who is the image of god, should shine unto them.

Does or does not the Bible recognize a God other than our Trinitarian God?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Revelation 6:9-10
When he broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of all the people who had been killed on account of the word of God, for witnessing to it. They shouted aloud, "Holy, faithful Master, how much longer will you wait before you pass sentence and take vengeance for our death on the inhabitants of the earth?"

**The Bible is saying that martyrs go to heaven before the Judgment. Note that this takes place before the resurrection, before the end of the world, before the Judgment, while life is going on as usual on the earth. Also, the martyrs, despite being “dead”, have their own memories, and remember that they have been martyred. So to say that these martyrs “know nothing” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) in the sense of being unconscious, or something like that, would be incorrect. **

 

[JoeyWarren]

1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

**If the spirits in prison are dead and “know nothing”, then why is Jesus preaching to them? **

 

[JoeyWarren]

**Luke 12:4
And I say unto you my friends, “Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.”

Here we see that Jesus says that murderers kill only the body, and cannot harm the soul at all. In other words, our soul stays alive, despite anything a murderer might try to do. **

 

[JoeyWarren]

**2 Corinthians 5:6,8-9
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord… We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

If our soul dies when our body dies, then how can we be “absent” from the body? Yet, the Bible says that we can be with the Lord while absent from our body! **

 

[JoeyWarren]

Luke 24:37-39
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, "Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

**If a spirit apart from its body is dead, then surely the Apostles would know this and thus would not have thought that a living Jesus would be a spirit. Also, if the Apostles had been incorrect in believing that a person’s soul survives apart from that person’s body, then why didn’t Jesus correct them instead of encouraging them in this “erroneous” belief they held? In fact, Jesus here says that the spirit exists independently of the body. **

 

[JoeyWarren]

**Genesis 35:18
And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)…

Note that, when Rachel died, her soul departed. It didn’t “fall asleep”. **

 

[JoeyWarren]

**Revelation 20:4
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus… they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Note that John saw only the souls of the martyrs. **

 

[JoeyWarren]

**Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Note that they are presently suffering, and thus not unconscious. **

 

[JoeyWarren]

I thought that Samuel’s appearance to Saul disproves this SDA doctrine. He said that Samuel was not Samuel, but a demon. Is this a valid argument?

No, the argument is not a valid one. The appearance of the dead Samuel to Saul in I Samuel 28:12-20 gives no indication of being a diabolical deception. The text does not support the SDA interpretation in the least. Indeed, no one would put forth such an uncontextual interpretation if they did not already hold to such a belief.

The inspired author is extremely clear in his belief that Samuel was Samuel. To wit: “When the woman saw Samuel…” (v. 12), “Samuel then said…” (v. 15), “To this Samuel said…” (v. 16), “…shaken by Samuel’s message.” (v. 20). Note that the author never once implies that Samuel isn’t Samuel. It is an SDA invention that Samuel wasn’t Samuel.

It is forbidden to contact the dead in order to gain information (Deuteronomy 18:9-14). Contacting the dead for information shows a lack of faith in God to supply what is necessary. This is exactly what Saul did in contacting Samuel.

" ‘I am in great straits, for the Philestines are waging war against me and GOD HAS ABANDONED ME. Since he no longer answers me through prophets or in dreams, I have called you to tell me what I should do’" (v. 15).

I see God as punishing Saul by allowing Samuel to appear to Saul in order to condemn him. This would be severe punishment–to be condemned by one’s hero. Our Lord used the same type of punishment on the unbelieving Jews.

“Do not imagine that I will be your accuser before the Father; the one to accuse you is Moses on whom you have set your hopes” (John 5:45).

How did the Jews themselves view the appearance of Samuel?

“Even while he (Samuel) lay buried, his guidance was sought; he made known to the king (Saul) his fate, and from the grave he raised his voice as a prophet, to put an end to wickedness” (Sirach 46:20).

It is obvious from the above that there was no doubt that Samuel was Samuel. No one saw his appearance as violating God’s revelation concerning the state of the dead.

Michael, may I suggest that you ask your SDA friend what is the point of a demon announcing the just judgment of God? Would a demon even know what God was about to do? Would a demon say the sacred name of God so often (vv. 16&17 once each, vv. 18&19 twice each)?

I believe that the evidence is clear. The context of I Samuel 28:12-20, as well as common sense, renders the SDA position on the state of the dead untenable.

 

[thechrismyster]

You have NO CLUE as to the depth of my understanding. None whatsoever .

and oooh, so modest!

that post gave me a chuckle, it was probably the most ridiculous self agrandizement i’ve EVER (and i’m talking i got my first modem in '84) read on the internet. it was short, succinct… the happy face was just icing on the end. i would have left it out.

well played!

 

[Sixtus]

Judgement Day has been and gone!

Sentence was passed on this world. Because of its wickedness, it was condemned to death

The Son of God CHOSE to die in our place.

He will come at the end of time to collect those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

He opened the gates of Heaven where the souls of those who love Him dwell. He will come back to reunite them with their immortal bodies.