The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

[Debora123]

Haha if women don’t want to be judged by their looks why do they worry about what they wear? On the one-hand women argue that clothes are a method of self-expression, but then they get mad when we take the way they dress into account when evaluating them? You just told me the way you dress is an expression of yourself, and now I’m told not to take anything from the way you express yourself? Especially for an actress 99% of people are going to have nothing more than their looks to evaluate an opinion of them.

There is no excuse for publicly bashing someone’s appearances… but such is just my opinion and apparently not shared by others here.

 

[chevalier]

As I said before, we aren’t talking about you dressing the way you feel comfortable. You can wear a bikini to the beach if you want or a one piece. You can dress in shorts, and a tank top if you care. It’s when someone is purposely dressing to attract attention.

That’s someone I’ve been saying or trying to say too. Sometimes the purpose is to gain attention but when the attention appears, responsibility is declined. This would actually be similar to flaunting food before hungry people until some of them began to desire to steal it, after which we’d say we had the right to express whatever we wanted, including our having plenty of food that others didn’t. First amendment thinking messes up a lot of logic when it comes to modesty.

At the same time, a person expresses himself or herself that way (it’s certainly possible for a men to do that and more and more men do so in all manner of Chippendale fashion), diminishes himself or herself, takes away the confidence, the reliability, the seriousness, the stability, the intellect, the whatever else other than some kind of sexual marketing mechanic, in which sex is a commodity, as are people. In limited cases, one’s own sexual faculties (ability to attract others sexually and interact sexually in general) will be used as means of attempted control (rather than mere attraction).

 

[carguy]

Some women simply don’t have the “cute” look. Some women, by nature, have the athletic look, or the exotic look… etc etc.

Yea that is true and I do know what you mean by that look being as most of the girls I have dated have been of that athletic look with a cute face lol.

 

[LilyM]

Swift definitely has an angel face/doll face. But we don’t all have that. I most certainly don’t.

While it is perfectly ok to have preferences on appearance, I don’t think it was right for the author to publicly name those ladies in a critical way as he did. I don’t think it was gentlemanly nor was it respectful. They are still daughters of God.

It’s NOT about the face fer crying out loud! It’s about

a) near-constant wearing of very low/high cut skin tight clothing blatantly designed to be sexually provocative
b) appearances in Playboy and other men’s magazines (or other photographs) naked or semi-naked and in highly sexualised poses
c) the drug and alcohol use and jokes about same
d) the court appearances and jail time

Taylor Swift does none of the above that I’m aware of, the others do, and none of it is remotely attractive except to men who are similarly interested only In sex drugs and alcohol.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

It’s NOT about the face fer crying out loud! It’s about

a) near-constant wearing of very low/high cut skin tight clothing blatantly designed to be sexually provocative
b) appearances in Playboy and other men’s magazines naked or semi-naked
c) the drug and alcohol use and jokes about same
d) the court appearances and jail time

None of this is remotely attractive in any fashion.

Agree.

I liked Miley Cyrus until she started showing up in drug videos. No more Miley for my kids. I told them she takes drugs she is not a good role model.

DD likes taylor Swift and Selena Gomez. Both are pretty young ladies. So far I have not heard bad things about them…I will evaluate periodically if either changes personality.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Some women simply don’t have the “cute” look. Some women, by nature, have the athletic look, or the exotic look… etc etc.

exotic?

A South Asian woman in a sari isn’t exactly being immodest.

 

[chevalier]

Yes, if I wear a short shirt or a low-cut top it is far easier for you to say that I sexually assaulted you than it is for you to be a good and strong man and simply ignore it. Start taking responsibility for your own thoughts. Women are not here to cater to your preferences when it comes to their manner of dress.

Please quit trying to insult me. I did not deserve that kind of language from you.

As for your argument that women are not there to cater to my preferences, my reply will be simple: I am not there to be used as an ego boost.

To draw a more illustrative parallel: I’m not an ATM to elicit some kind of ego boost from due to sexual attention.

You presumed I cannot control my thoughts around a woman flaunting her sexuality. That is not true, I can control my thoughts. I can resist any temptation but I don’t experience much anyway because I am disgusted by the base level to which human sexuality (which is supposed to be beautiful) is being dragged. The temptation to judge the woman is stronger than the temptation to desire her inordinately, if you must know, but I can resist that temptation too. Are you satisfied with this knowledge from my private life?

Now my point is that while I resist the attempt, a woman is still sexually assaulting me if she’s trying to make me lust after her or especially if she’s trying to compel me to lust after her. I would also be sexually assaulting her if I attempted to cause her to fantasise about me (by intentionally offering a strong temptation in knowledge of what I were doing).

However, to some people (myself included), the article makes it seem that by “innocence,” the author actually means virginal, quiet, delicate, submissive, and maybe having a pretty/innocent “doll like” appearance.

And what’s wrong with virginal appearance? I’m asking seriously and I don’t mean ill. We’re all called to be chaste. Chastity has a very clear and close parallel to virginity, in the sense that chastity is (among other things) abstinence from unlawful intercourse (where married people can be chaste because their intercourse is lawful and where physical virgins can be unchaste due to fornicating in their imagination alone). By allowing God to lift us from our sins, in this case sexual ones, we are embracing chastity again. This can be compared to becoming virginal again, in a way. Why should we then shun chaste appearance or have any problem with it in fact? There’s nothing shameful in chastity despite the fact that the secular world wants to make us feel ashamed of being chaste or wanting to be chaste. Neither does being chaste mean being weak, in fact, more like strong, very strong.

 

[1inICXC]

I find it extremely easy to distinguish between what is sexy/hot and what is elegant/beautiful/ pretty -gorgeous can go either way for instance- and no doubt, today’s women prefer the former.

It is really sad to see women wearing nice, elegant clothing but throwing on stripper shoes (those thin, 6 inch, stilettos) and going wild on the make up. It’s of course, even worse when the clothing is also trashy.

While some girls are just the very cute types and can’t really go wrong with the clothes they chose, (petite girls in general)many girls like “dressing to kill”. These are women who seek to manipulate and dominate through their looks and while it may be irresistible to a man, it will not yield a wholesome, healthy relationship.

It’s not just the clothing either, it’s the “let’s pose as if this were a maxim shoot” attitude as well. You see it everywhere, head thrown back, the butt sticking out etc. This is all “sexiness” and definitely not “pretty”, though the face may be.

Some would argue that it’s a grey area and that while for some it may be so, for others it isn’t, I will have to disagree. I’ve chosen girly and elegant as my style and despite being complimented regularly I haven’t heard anyone, other than my husband, call me “sexy” in years. Even cab drivers and construction men, who aren’t the most refined people around here, will say things along the lines of my husband being a very lucky man, stunning, beautiful but nothing with a sexual over/undertone.

 

[Debora123]

It’s NOT about the face fer crying out loud! It’s about

a) near-constant wearing of very low/high cut skin tight clothing blatantly designed to be sexually provocative
b) appearances in Playboy and other men’s magazines (or other photographs) naked or semi-naked and in highly sexualised poses
c) the drug and alcohol use and jokes about same
d) the court appearances and jail time

Taylor Swift does none of the above that I’m aware of, the others do, and none of it is remotely attractive except to men who are similarly interested only In sex drugs and alcohol.

See my post #79.

 

[Debora123]

exotic?

A South Asian woman in a sari isn’t exactly being immodest.

I didn’t mention anyone being immodest.

 

[chevalier]

I dress in accordance with the time/place/activity/occasion. The problem is, a lot of people here assume that just because a girl wears shorts on a hot day, she is purposely trying make other people lust. Such is not the case whatsoever, and it is a rash and unfair assumption.

I agree with the quote without reservation.

But if she wears “booty shorts” plus a clingy top two sizes too small with “sexy” written across it, then matters look different, don’t they? The defence of the right to wear whatever one wants must stop at some point. At some point the line is crossed.

 

[Debora123]

And what’s wrong with virginal appearance? I’m asking seriously and I don’t mean ill. We’re all called to be chaste. Chastity has a very clear and close parallel to virginity, in the sense that chastity is (among other things) abstinence from unlawful intercourse (where married people can be chaste because their intercourse is lawful and where physical virgins can be unchaste due to fornicating in their imagination alone). By allowing God to lift us from our sins, in this case sexual ones, we are embracing chastity again. This can be compared to becoming virginal again, in a way. Why should we then shun chaste appearance or have any problem with it in fact? There’s nothing shameful in chastity despite the fact that the secular world wants to make us feel ashamed of being chaste or wanting to be chaste. Neither does being chaste mean being weak, in fact, more like strong, very strong.

Why do you take what I say and twist it to make it seem like something it completely is not??

 

[1inICXC]

I’m going to make this short and to the point. Valuing a woman for her innocence and purity is still valuing her only for her sexuality, just in a different way. It disgusts me to hear men talk about how innocence and virginity is so important to them, and how they look at virgins differently than non virgins. Women are people and they deserved to be judged based on who they are, not on their sexuality. Women are much more than their sexual behavior and sexual past (or lack thereof), and its time to shift the focus away from that.

What are you talking about lady?! A woman who sleeps around is a woman who sleeps around. Should she be loved and respected, yes, but you cannot tell a man that she is just as suitable as a wife and mother as a woman who is chaste in her behavior!

I can hardly think of anything that speaks more about a woman than sexual behaviour. Our sexual behaviour embodies the whole of our attitude towards life, love and marriage. It doesn’t matter how many languages you speak, what kind of degree you have or if you do charity work, this is about your own dignity.

And yes it goes for men as well! Sexual behaviour is, well, everything. I’m not sure how anyone fails to see that.

Sexual past is a different thing, past is past, you can understand a person better by knowing it but definitely not something to judge by once things have changed.

 

[Debora123]

I agree with the quote without reservation.

But if she wears “booty shorts” plus a clingy top two sizes too small with “sexy” written across it, then matters look different, don’t they? The defence of the right to wear whatever one wants must stop at some point. At some point the line is crossed.

Wearing such as you describe above isn’t something I do personally, but I don’t go around paying so much attention to what other people wear and then proceed to access their self worth. Our duty is to always try to assume the best in others, love others as ourselves, and to leave the judging up to God.

Therefore I find it extremely contra productive to sit around and complain about what the girl who walked by at the mall was wearing last Friday. :yawn:

…Just my opinion.

 

[chevalier]

Why do you take what I say and twist it to make it seem like something it completely is not??

Don’t assume that I do that please. You seem to have the impression that I’m trying to judge you or talk specifically about you somehow. I apologise if I actually have caused it.

From the way you listed virginal among other things I got the impression there was something wrong with being associated with virginity.

Wearing such as you describe above isn’t something I do personally, but I don’t go around paying so much attention to what other people wear and then proceed to access their self worth. Our duty is to always try to assume the best in others, love others as ourselves, and to leave the judging up to God.

Therefore I find it extremely contra productive to sit around and complain about what the girl who walked by at the mall was wearing last Friday. :yawn:

…Just my opinion.

Just because we’re debating intellectually here doesn’t mean any of us spends time auditing people’s clothes and judging the persons underneath.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

What are you talking about lady?! A woman who sleeps around is a woman who sleeps around. Should she be loved and respected, yes, but you cannot tell a man that she is just as suitable as a wife and mother as a woman who is chaste in her behavior!

I can hardly think of anything that speaks more about a woman than sexual behaviour. Our sexual behaviour embodies the whole of our attitude towards life, love and marriage. It doesn’t matter how many languages you speak, what kind of degree you have or if you do charity work, this is about your own dignity.

And yes it goes for men as well! Sexual behaviour is, well, everything. I’m not sure how anyone fails to see that.

Sexual past is a different thing, past is past, you can understand a person better by knowing it but definitely not something to judge by once things have changed.

Oh, you think that sexual behavior is the best way to judge a woman do you? That’s interesting. I was always taught that the best way to judge a person is by how they treat others. I also take issue with the idea that a chaste woman would make a better wife and mother. I know plenty of people who were “unchaste” (engaged in premarital sex) that make far better parents and spouses than those who didn’t.

Really, you think a virginal woman who lies, manipulates, and takes advantage of someone would make a better wife than a kind, loving non-virgin who genuinely looks out for the best interests of others?

There are lots of good people with sexual histories, and plenty of bad people without them. Your attitude of valuing a woman more because she hasn’t had sex, or seeing her as a better person is misogynistic and is exactly the same as a man valuing a woman for what she will give him sexually. Either way, you’re looking at the woman as a sexual thing, not a whole and complete person.

 

[Debora123]

Don’t assume that I do that please. You seem to have the impression that I’m trying to judge you or talk specifically about you somehow. I apologise if I actually have caused it.

From the way you listed virginal among other things I got the impression there was something wrong with being associated with virginity.

Gotcha.

And no, I didn’t mean at all that there is anything wrong with virginity. I myself am a huge advocate of saving sex for marriage. I wasn’t trying to say there was anything wrong with being a virgin, just that I don’t agree with the mindset that a virgin girl is somehow more attractive than the girl who has made a mistake in the past. Chastity is 9 million times more important than virginity.

 

[Debora123]

Just because we’re debating intellectually here doesn’t mean any of us spends time auditing people’s clothes and judging the persons underneath.

Isn’t that what we’re doing though? Spending time auditing people’s clothes and judging the person underneath??

That’s what it seems like to me, and that’s where my issue lies.

 

[LilyM]

See my post #79.

Well, to a significant extent clothing choice is an indicator of personality - I mean would any woman suggest that someone else literally or figuratively held a gun to her head and made her put on clothing that was totally incompatible with her personality?

Example - you’ve said bikinis and shorts are part of your culture. Maybe so, but within that you make choices.

You choose between a modest bikini that offers a decent amount of coverage or one that is more akin to three or four postage stamps held together by dental floss.

You choose between knee-length shorts, mid-thigh length or so-small-they-only-cover-only-half-the-butt-cheeks length.

You choose t-shirts with a sleeve and a neckline that covers the cleavage, those without sleeves but wide straps and a reasonably covered neckline and one’s that have spaghetti straps and necklines down to Antarctica.

 

[bmullins]

Put that way, I agree.

I guess I get confused sometimes on whether some posters are referring strictly to physical appearances, or to morals/values.

I think the problem is, no matter how we want it to be or the rightness of it, looks often do imply certain moral values. While you’re moral values are likely high, and fully in communion with the values set by the Church; most people (men and women included) will judge you differently by what you wear. Wearing a nice dress that fits well gives a different impression than wearing ‘daisy dukes’ and a bra.

Miley wearing skin tight clothes while doing a stripper dance on top of an ice cream cart, grinding a pole rightly gives a much different appearance to Taylor Swift standing in a slightly demure dress. They both have the ability to be exceptionally beautiful people. They both could wear the same dress and it wouldn’t make them different people… but it would still give the appearance of being different/same.