The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

[bmullins]

Oh, you think that sexual behavior is the best way to judge a woman do you? That’s interesting. I was always taught that the best way to judge a person is by how they treat others. I also take issue with the idea that a chaste woman would make a better wife and mother. I know plenty of people who were “unchaste” (engaged in premarital sex) that make far better parents and spouses than those who didn’t.

Really, you think a virginal woman who lies, manipulates, and takes advantage of someone would make a better wife than a kind, loving non-virgin who genuinely looks out for the best interests of others?

There are lots of good people with sexual histories, and plenty of bad people without them. Your attitude of valuing a woman more because she hasn’t had sex, or seeing her as a better person is misogynistic and is exactly the same as a man valuing a woman for what she will give him sexually. Either way, you’re looking at the woman as a sexual thing, not a whole and complete person.

The problem there in lies that a woman who has sex with someone outside of wedlock is very much an indication of how she treats people. You see it as simply sex. We do not. To use your own examples.

A virginal woman who lies and manipulates is not going to be a better wife than a woman who was not a virgin but is good to her spouse. In the same token, a woman who is a virgin and holds it as a spiritual and important experience, is going to have a much better view of her husband than someone who thinks of sex as only an event that you can have with anyone.

 

[chevalier]

Haha if women don’t want to be judged by their looks why do they worry about what they wear? On the one-hand women argue that clothes are a method of self-expression, but then they get mad when we take the way they dress into account when evaluating them?

That is indeed inconsistent, although I’d try to be a little bit more charitable towards the lady you’ve been swapping posts with.

The above inconsistency, however, is not a problem that women have, it’s a problem with the whole “expression” line of thinking. As in, you have to concede people’s right of expression but you can’t conclude anything from the expression.

There is actually a bit of a parallel with provocative clothing or behaviour, something I’ve already mentioned, which works like the tobacco industry: put up the ads, get people hooked, deny any responsibility because people were making their choices themselves. This works for the law but doesn’t work for morality: when we intentionally put up temptations for people (as in when we actually do want to tempt them), then we can’t hide behind those persons’ free will.

 

[Baelor]

chevalier:

You’re not the only one. I see it very frequently that women take offence at or are creeped out by anything that remotely alludes to innocence or even chastity, while they feel much more comfortable around the manifestations of the moral decay of our culture

That is clearly not true, and honestly offensive to me – a male. It’s the idea of sexual objectification and the appearance of near-fetishization of “innocence” and “chastity” that is problematic, as has been noted. Why is the alternative of simply not drawing gender distinctions with reference to innocence and chastity so unreasonable a solution?

I have not seen much press here or elsewhere focusing on the importance of an “innocent” and “virginal” appearance for men. Given that girls who sleep around are called sluts while men who sleep around are called players, I would think that the focus on males is even more important. But no, it is always about the women.

And what’s wrong with virginal appearance?

There is no such thing.

 

[Debora123]

Well, to a significant extent clothing choice is an indicator of personality - I mean would any woman suggest that someone else literally or figuratively held a gun to her head and made her put on clothing that was totally incompatible with her personality?

Example - you’ve said bikinis and shorts are part of your culture. Maybe so, but within that you make choices.

You choose between a modest bikini that offers a decent amount of coverage or one that is more akin to three or four postage stamps held together by dental floss.

You choose between knee-length shorts, mid-thigh length or so-small-they-only-cover-only-half-the-butt-cheeks length.

You choose t-shirts with a sleeve and a neckline that covers the cleavage, those without sleeves but wide straps and a reasonably covered neckline and one’s that have spaghetti straps and necklines down to Antarctica.

I think the problem is, no matter how we want it to be or the rightness of it, looks often do imply certain moral values. While you’re moral values are likely high, and fully in communion with the values set by the Church; most people (men and women included) will judge you differently by what you wear. Wearing a nice dress that fits well gives a different impression than wearing ‘daisy dukes’ and a bra.

Miley wearing skin tight clothes while doing a stripper dance on top of an ice cream cart, grinding a pole rightly gives a much different appearance to Taylor Swift standing in a slightly demure dress. They both have the ability to be exceptionally beautiful people. They both could wear the same dress and it wouldn’t make them different people… but it would still give the appearance of being different/same.

I try not to obsess so much over other people’s clothing. There could be many reasons why a person chooses to wear what he/she wears, and it is not our judgement to make, because we will never know what is in another’s heart.

No one can ever please everyone 100% of the time when it comes to what they choose to wear.

…That’s why I think these modesty threads are extremely contra productive.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

The problem there in lies that a woman who has sex with someone outside of wedlock is very much an indication of how she treats people. You see it as simply sex. We do not. To use your own examples.

A virginal woman who lies and manipulates is not going to be a better wife than a woman who was not a virgin but is good to her spouse. In the same token, a woman who is a virgin and holds it as a spiritual and important experience, is going to have a much better view of her husband than someone who thinks of sex as only an event that you can have with anyone.

I don’t see it as simply sex, thankyouverymuch. I think that there are a lot of people who fall somewhere between the Catholic view of sex and the free-love/sex is just sex/do it with anyone attitude. In fact, I would say that most people in this country fall somewhere in the middle, in no small part due to the fact that that’s the attitude that many people are raised with. I really don’t think that a woman who fell in love with someone else and had sex with him prior to meeting her husband but ended that relationship is going to see her husband, the man that she promises herself to for life, the man that she makes public vows to any differently than a virgin would. Especially if she “turned away” from her old life of “sexual sin”.

To say that sexual history is the best way to judge a woman is just gross, especially to the extent of passing judgment on how fully a woman can love.

Besides, Catholics view repentance and turning away from sin so highly that its a sacrament.

 

[Nate13]

I try not to obsess so much over other people’s clothing. There could be many reasons why a person chooses to wear what he/she wears, and it is not our judgement to make, because we will never know what is in another heart.

No one can ever please everyone 100% of the time when it comes to what they choose to wear.

…That’s why I think these modesty threads are extremely contra productive.

If I met someone for the first time and they immediately called me an obscene name would you tell me not to take that into account as I formed an opinion of them?

Yes judging someone entirely by what the wear is wrong, but no one ever said to do that.
People will and should take into account what a person is wearing when them meet them. Obviously as you said we will not know the motivations about why a person may be wearing what they are wearing. A woman might wear a certain bikini because that is what is comfortable for her, and not because she is attempting to make sure everyone sees plenty of cleavage. Either way though at a minimum a woman wearing something revealing would tell you that she doesn’t either realize or fully care that what she wears may lead others to form an opinion of her that is not accurate.

What people wear is one of many things we use to form an opinion about them, and no one should have to apologize for taking that into account. Maybe what you don’t like is the term “judging” someone which I see as equal to forming an opinion about someone. I do not attribute the negative connotation to the term “judging” many people do.

 

[Debora123]

If I met someone for the first time and they immediately called me an obscene name would you tell me not to take that into account as I formed an opinion of them?

I guess I see a difference between calling someone names and clothing.

 

[Debora123]

Yes judging someone entirely by what the wear is wrong, but no one ever said to do that.
People will and should take into account what a person is wearing when them meet them. Obviously as you said we will not know the motivations about why a person may be wearing what they are wearing. **A woman might wear a certain bikini because that is what is comfortable for her, and not because she is attempting to make sure everyone sees plenty of cleavage. ** Either way though at a minimum a woman wearing something revealing would tell you that she doesn’t either realize or fully care that what she wears may lead others to form an opinion of her that is not accurate.

…Then perhaps it would be better to make more threads that emphasize not judging people by what they wear, and less threads that analyze clothes and the people who wear them.

 

[LilyM]

I try not to obsess so much over other people’s clothing. There could be many reasons why a person chooses to wear what he/she wears, and it is not our judgement to make, because we will never know what is in another’s heart.

No one can ever please everyone 100% of the time when it comes to what they choose to wear.

…That’s why I think these modesty threads are extremely contra productive.

True, I can’t please everyone. I doubtless wear clothes that some people might think are too casual, not casual enough, too bright in colour, too dull in colour or whatnot. And it is beyond my control if they aren’t pleased by them for those reasons.

It is much much more within my control whether my clothes give an impression of modesty or not. I can keep well enough covered to satisfy 99% of the population on the modesty score, even in a swimsuit, yet still look attractive and keep sufficiently cool/warm for any weather.

Trust me, I live in a tropical climate. Keeping cool is a prime consideration. Daisy Dukes are NOT cooler than a knee length or even longer skirt of light cotton, on the contrary. A
sleeveless top is NOT cooler than, say, something with sheer lacy sleeves that allow plenty of breeze in, even if they are elbow length.

 

[LilyM]

I guess I see a difference between calling someone names and clothing.

Why? What you wear and what you say are equally modes of self-expression.

More interestingly, the visual (which includes things like body language as well as dress) is far more reliable an indicator than what someone chooses to say, which is more highly conscious and edited.

 

[Debora123]

True, I can’t please everyone. I doubtless wear clothes that some people might think are too casual, not casual enough, too bright in colour, too dull in colour or whatnot. And it is beyond my control if they aren’t pleased by them for those reasons.

It is much much more within my control whether my clothes give an impression of modesty or not. I can keep well enough covered to satisfy 99% of the population on the modesty score, even in a swimsuit, yet still look attractive and keep sufficiently cool/warm for any weather.

Trust me, I live in a tropical climate. Keeping cool is a prime consideration. Daisy Dukes are NOT cooler than a knee length or even longer skirt of light cotton, on the contrary. A
sleeveless top is NOT cooler than, say, something with sheer lacy sleeves that allow plenty of breeze in, even if they are elbow length.

I fully believe what I wear is modest/appropriate in the eyes of 99% of the population of my area as well. The 1% being CAFers.

 

[Nate13]

…Then perhaps it would be better to make more threads that emphasize not judging people by what they wear, and less threads that simply analyze clothes and the people who wear them.

Haha do you believe there is a rampant problem with people judging others for their clothing? Maybe some of the confusion is in what judging really entails.

When I meet someone I immediately take into account what they are wearing, how they talk, their mannerisms, what they say, ect. and begin forming an opinion of them. Its by no means a “final judgement” of what I think of the person, but unfortunately its all I have to go by at that time. I’m completely open to being convinced of the opposite of what their first impression implies to me about them, but not forming any opinion about them at all seems somewhat silly. Are you truly telling me that you just completely ignore the fact that a woman is wearing a short skirt, a shirt showing plenty of cleavage, lots of make-up, and mannerisms that let you know she is trying to gets guys attention when you first meet her?

Judging in my mind does not describe one particular act. Judging is a process that develops as new information becomes available and opinions on a person are updated. It is not some final act, but rather a continuous act. Its the process of forming an opinion.

 

[Debora123]

Originally Posted by Debora123

Because me wearing a bikini might be completely fine to some people, while very offensive to others.

Just like me wearing pants vs a long dress might be completely fine to some people, while apparently very offensive to others. (See the Traditional Catholicism section )

Calling someone an IDIOT, however, is offensive by it’s very nature and almost always sinful. It is a derogatory term.

…That is why I think there’s is a difference.

 

[LilyM]

I fully believe what I wear is modest/appropriate in the eyes of 99% of the population of my area as well. The 1% being CAFers.

So if your area happens to be the red light district of your city, the fact that the majority of women dress like strippers or prostitutes (since they will BE strippers or prostitutes) will make it OK for you to dress like a streetwalker too?

Appropriate has nothing to do with blending in with the crowd.

 

[Baelor]

Are you truly telling me that you just completely ignore the fact that a woman is wearing a short skirt, a shirt showing plenty of cleavage, lots of make-up, and mannerisms that let you know she is trying to gets guys attention when you first meet her?

The problem is that you are assigning a relationship that is not there.

In my experience, clothing has little to do with any other personality trait/moral/etc.

 

[Nate13]

Because me wearing a bikini might be completely fine to some people, while very offensive to others.

Just like me wearing pants vs a long dress might be completely fine to some people, while apparently very offensive to others. (See the Traditional Catholicism section )

Calling someone an IDIOT, however, is offensive by it’s very nature and almost always sinful. It is a derogatory term.

…That is why I think there’s is a difference.

idiot: someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way.

I guess you will offend me with what your wearing and I will offend you with my speech. Such is life (I highly doubt what you wear would offend me btw…a bit of sarcasm there)

 

[Nate13]

The problem is that you are assigning a relationship that is not there.

In my experience, clothing has little to do with any other personality trait/moral/etc.

Your entitled to your experience. Depending where your at it may mean more than it would in another place. I take where I’m at into account when I form an opinion. There are factors too numerous to list, so please don’t get upset if you feel I’m leaving out something.

 

[Debora123]

Haha do you believe there is a rampant problem with people judging others for their clothing? Maybe some of the confusion is in what judging really entails.

When I meet someone I immediately take into account what they are wearing, how they talk, their mannerisms, what they say, ect. and begin forming an opinion of them. Its by no means a “final judgement” of what I think of the person, but unfortunately its all I have to go by at that time. I’m completely open to being convinced of the opposite of what their first impression implies to me about them, but not forming any opinion about them at all seems somewhat silly. Are you truly telling me that you just completely ignore the fact that a woman is wearing a short skirt, a shirt showing plenty of cleavage, lots of make-up, and mannerisms that let you know she is trying to gets guys attention when you first meet her?

Judging in my mind does not describe one particular act. Judging is a process that develops as new information becomes available and opinions on a person are updated. It is not some final act, but rather a continuous act. Its the process of forming an opinion.

Some people only get one first impression. Such as the girl who walks by when you think to yourself “wow, she must be pretty sk_nky, given what she’s wearing” …when really she could be a tourist from some other continent where wearing such is perfectly appropriate and she has no idea.

…It is best to give people the benefit of the doubt. Especially when it comes to something as superficial as clothing. I think that’s what Jesus would have liked us to do. Just my opinion.

 

[Nate13]

Some people only get one first impression. Such as the girl who walks by when you think to yourself “wow, she must be pretty sk_nky, given what she’s wearing” …when really she could be a tourist from some other continent where wearing such is perfectly appropriate and she has no idea.

…It is best to give people the benefit of the doubt. Especially when it comes from something as superficial as clothing. I think that’s what Jesus would have liked us to do. Just my opinion.

Miley Cyrus, Megan Fox, ect… are perfectly aware of American customs as is Taylor Swift. They make different choices though. You have a good point though in that despite outward appearances we should always strive to see the beauty in one another. I don’t think forming opinions of one another and that ideal are contrary to one another though but rather complimentary.

Also I would condemn the judgement in your example, but not because its a judgement but because its a rash judgement and is way to far reaching considering the information available.

 

[Debora123]

So if your area happens to be the red light district of your city, the fact that the majority of women dress like strippers or prostitutes (since they will BE strippers or prostitutes) will make it OK for you to dress like a streetwalker too?

Appropriate has nothing to do with blending in with the crowd.

I have no idea, I don’t live in such area.

What I mean is, something that might be appropriate to wear in Rio de Janeiro, might not be so appropriate in Canada,

…just as something that might be appropriate to wear in the middle of a tropical jungle amongst indigenous tribes, may not be so appropriate to wear in Western Civilization.

That’s why I specified “area.”