The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

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I think my wife is sexy, yes. In fact, I think she is most sexy when she is being herself and not trying to be anything else. You see, my wife is the kind of woman that the author is talking about. She is the innocent and beautiful. She dresses the way she is comfortable, and often times thinks I’m silly when I find myself staring at her face across the room.

As I said before, we aren’t talking about you dressing the way you feel comfortable. You can wear a bikini to the beach if you want or a one piece. You can dress in shorts, and a tank top if you care. It’s when someone is purposely dressing to attract attention.

Let me try it from this angle, maybe you will understand where I am coming from. I am a father of four girls. My 13 year old wants to dress like the women she sees. She wants skinny, tight jeans that hug her figure. She wants to wear low cut tops, and even halter tops. She gets angry when I tell her she’s too young to wear such things. I’ve even been accused by some of being a fuddy duddy, or of trying to force her to be ‘less of a woman.’

Quite the contrary. My daughters are encouraged to express themselves. They are encouraged to use their minds, to speak with confidence, and to always tell me how they feel even if it is something I don’t want to hear. They can be strong, decisive and powerful women without having to dress in a common or crude manner. In fact, I find that I respect many women more when they are dressed in a business manner or in a very nice, flattering, but conservative outfit.

I think what most of the guys here are trying to say is that our society has become a place where the bikini isn’t just found on the beach. It’s making it’s way into every aspect of life. The office is no longer a place where you don’t expose much flesh, but now a place where low cut tops (and I don’t mean just a little) and ever shorter skirts are the norm. You find men all over the place exposing more and more of their anatomy as well.

I don’t want women to regress. I don’t want them to be my slave (I’m a house husband for that matter, I stay home with my kids.) I don’t want someone to iron my clothes or wash my dishes. I also don’t women to be nothing more than eye candy. The most attractive part of my wife (though I think she is very physically attractive, quite beautiful) is her mind, and the fact she is willing to express it to me with on qualms. That is what a woman should be, not just her breasts and legs. As well as a man should be his mind, not just his biceps and buttocks.
 
Didn’t Christ ask his parents why they were looking for him when He had disappeared to the temple? Didn’t He speak out harshly about hypocrites, didn’t He overturn the tables in the temple. I could go on. I agree with Debora123 about Christ. Yes, Christ did preach about humility etc but it was about an honest humility. What has a woman acting submissive, docile and quiet to get, boost a man’s ego or to impress a man have to do with what Christ taught and how he lived? What Christ taught applies to all men and women.
We all need to build up each other’s egos and make each other feel special from time to time. We just do it in different ways. Men might send women flowers or chocolates, watch a romantic movie with us when we know they’d rather watch the latest all-action thriller, do the midnight diaper change so that we can rest a bit, things like that.

And it ties in very well with Christ - do as you would be done by, having a meek and humble heart, being a servant to others (and allowing a guy to feel manly IS a form of service to him, is it not?)
 
We all need to build up each other’s egos and make each other feel special from time to time. We just do it in different ways. Men might send women flowers or chocolates, watch a romantic movie with us when we know they’d rather watch the latest all-action thriller, do the midnight diaper change so that we can rest a bit, things like that.

And it ties in very well with Christ - do as you would be done by, having a meek and humble heart, being a servant to others (and allowing a guy to feel manly IS a form of service to him, is it not?)
We do not need to ‘allow’ or 'make 'a woman to feel womanly or a man to feel manly. I think we should just let people be what they are. Not all men have musceled builds, some may even be considered a bit effeminate and not all women are curvey with child bearing hips. Yes, husbands and wives should help and build each other up but that does not mean pretence and being less than you are.
 
🤷

I think a lady can be pretty and hot at the same time. My husband thinks I’m both, and I see nothing wrong with that. People on here freak out at the word “hot” sometimes because it can have a sexy connotation to it, which again, I see nothing wrong with that either. (unless there’s something wrong with being sexually attracted to someone, which there absolutely is not)

On a different note, this article really emphasizes women’s “innocence.” Should men emphasize their innocence as well?? Any thoughts?
Hi Debora,

I think you should be hot to your husband.

But as a married woman, your goal should not be to be hot to the rest of the world. And that involves thought and planning.

By hot, I mean dressed in a way that may include:
  • cleavage
  • too tight clothing
    – too short clothing
Of course one can just inspire sexual thoughts because of the way one is naturally built (one’s figure), but one doesn’t have to go out of their way to emphasize it.

I have seen some young women on the train ( i mean teens to early twenties), with cleavage popping all over the place. God gave them big breasts, but why do they need to expose it? One can see that they have big breasts even if they cover it up.

It may seem hot to them, but it really isn’t.

I can give some personal examples, which I won’t here, of ways I tone down my “sexiness” because my goal is not to appear sexy to random people. I much prefer to be “pretty”.

The times that I HAVE worn inappropriate things and as a result have gotten those hungry eyes looking at me, I have felt dirty and basically like a Jezebel, lol.

Anyway, I feel like we had this conversation in another thread.
 
I also take umbrage at Pat Arnold making statements like:

“Once upon a time you would hear girls talk about kind of women men date and the kind they marry”.

He appears to be making the Madonna/whore dichotomy, sometime I fine repulsive.
He’s not appearing to drawing the Virgin/whore dichotomy; he is drawing it, and in no uncertain terms.

When will we get it through our collective Christian skull that human beings of all real and perceived genders (and yes, I am using that term provocatively, thank you very much) nned and deserve respect, dignity, and protection no matter what they’re wearing or how we perceive their physical attractiveness? :banghead:

Luna
 
I think my wife is sexy, yes. In fact, I think she is most sexy when she is being herself and not trying to be anything else. You see, my wife is the kind of woman that the author is talking about. She is the innocent and beautiful. She dresses the way she is comfortable, and often times thinks I’m silly when I find myself staring at her face across the room.

As I said before, we aren’t talking about you dressing the way you feel comfortable. You can wear a bikini to the beach if you want or a one piece. You can dress in shorts, and a tank top if you care. It’s when someone is purposely dressing to attract attention.

Let me try it from this angle, maybe you will understand where I am coming from. I am a father of four girls. My 13 year old wants to dress like the women she sees. She wants skinny, tight jeans that hug her figure. She wants to wear low cut tops, and even halter tops. She gets angry when I tell her she’s too young to wear such things. I’ve even been accused by some of being a fuddy duddy, or of trying to force her to be ‘less of a woman.’

Quite the contrary. My daughters are encouraged to express themselves. They are encouraged to use their minds, to speak with confidence, and to always tell me how they feel even if it is something I don’t want to hear. They can be strong, decisive and powerful women without having to dress in a common or crude manner. In fact, I find that I respect many women more when they are dressed in a business manner or in a very nice, flattering, but conservative outfit.

I think what most of the guys here are trying to say is that our society has become a place where the bikini isn’t just found on the beach. It’s making it’s way into every aspect of life. The office is no longer a place where you don’t expose much flesh, but now a place where low cut tops (and I don’t mean just a little) and ever shorter skirts are the norm. You find men all over the place exposing more and more of their anatomy as well.

I don’t want women to regress. I don’t want them to be my slave (I’m a house husband for that matter, I stay home with my kids.) I don’t want someone to iron my clothes or wash my dishes. I also don’t women to be nothing more than eye candy. The most attractive part of my wife (though I think she is very physically attractive, quite beautiful) is her mind, and the fact she is willing to express it to me with on qualms. That is what a woman should be, not just her breasts and legs. As well as a man should be his mind, not just his biceps and buttocks.
I like how you see and respect women while I disagree as to your view of what the writer meant. On your comments:
  1. I agree to it being about intent;
  2. We should see both men and women for what they are and not just on the externals. The mind is the most interesting part of a person.
To add, I do not think we should judge people on the externals.
 
So not a lot is left for the poor old male of the species. I’m sure as much as Ms Stanton loved managing those horses, she probably at least sometimes let a gentleman help her into or out of the saddle, either because she needed help or liked being helped. 😉
“I don’t need…”
“Of course you don’t. Now if you please.” 😃
 
I’m going to make this short and to the point. Valuing a woman for her innocence and purity is still valuing her only for her sexuality, just in a different way. It disgusts me to hear men talk about how innocence and virginity is so important to them, and how they look at virgins differently than non virgins. Women are people and they deserved to be judged based on who they are, not on their sexuality. Women are much more than their sexual behavior and sexual past (or lack thereof), and its time to shift the focus away from that.
 
Besides, I believe that flashing people with sexual associations which they do not wish to have, basically attempting to cause them to have such associations and/or become aroused when they don’t want it, is akin to pornography (e.g. in the sense of seeing a kinky magazine cover you don’t want to see) or sexual assault (attempting to cause people to be aroused against their will is sexual assault as far as I go, even though no court would agree).
Yes, if I wear a short shirt or a low-cut top it is far easier for you to say that I sexually assaulted you than it is for you to be a good and strong man and simply ignore it. Start taking responsibility for your own thoughts. Women are not here to cater to your preferences when it comes to their manner of dress.
 
We do not need to ‘allow’ or 'make 'a woman to feel womanly or a man to feel manly. I think we should just let people be what they are. Not all men have musceled builds, some may even be considered a bit effeminate and not all women are curvey with child bearing hips. Yes, husbands and wives should help and build each other up but that does not mean pretence and being less than you are.
Well, no, we don’t need it in the sense of it being an imperative for our personal survival or that of the species.

In that sense we don’t need a lot of things - electricity, motorized transport, beer, champagne, health insurance, music, sport, fluffy kittens, art, overseas travel.

But then again, life is a whole lot better for a whole lotta people because of the stuff we don’t strictly need, isn’t it?
 
I’m going to make this short and to the point. Valuing a woman for her innocence and purity is still valuing her only for her sexuality, just in a different way. It disgusts me to hear men talk about how innocence and virginity is so important to them, and how they look at virgins differently than non virgins. Women are people and they deserved to be judged based on who they are, not on their sexuality. Women are much more than their sexual behavior and sexual past (or lack thereof), and its time to shift the focus away from that.
I do believe that it is prurient interest that leads us to constantly discuss taut young virgins and immodesty. It gives CAF a good pretext for obsessing over sex.
 
Hi Debora,

I think you should be hot to your husband.

But as a married woman, your goal should not be to be hot to the rest of the world. And that involves thought and planning.

By hot, I mean dressed in a way that may include:
  • cleavage
  • too tight clothing
    – too short clothing
Of course one can just inspire sexual thoughts because of the way one is naturally built (one’s figure), but one doesn’t have to go out of their way to emphasize it.

I have seen some young women on the train ( i mean teens to early twenties), with cleavage popping all over the place. God gave them big breasts, but why do they need to expose it? One can see that they have big breasts even if they cover it up.

It may seem hot to them, but it really isn’t.

I can give some personal examples, which I won’t here, of ways I tone down my “sexiness” because my goal is not to appear sexy to random people. I much prefer to be “pretty”.

The times that I HAVE worn inappropriate things and as a result have gotten those hungry eyes looking at me, I have felt dirty and basically like a Jezebel, lol.

Anyway, I feel like we had this conversation in another thread.
I dress in accordance with the time/place/activity/occasion. The problem is, a lot of people here assume that just because a girl wears shorts on a hot day, she is purposely trying make other people lust. Such is not the case whatsoever, and it is a rash and unfair assumption.

Do I dress to look good? Sure, I wanna look good. I definitely don’t dress to look ugly. Do I dress specifically and purposely make other men lust? Absolutely not. So no, it is not my “goal.” I wear what I think looks nice and is appropriate for the occasion.

I have always had a lot of male friends. Men have always respected me a great deal, whether they think I’m attractive or not. I also happen to be married to the most amazing, pure hearted person I’ve ever met. So I think I’m doing quite well on that department. 🙂

Nonetheless, I really don’t want to turn this into another modesty thread. Back to the point, I stand my ground that there is nothing wrong or degrading about my husband telling me he thinks I’m hot, but I think we can both agree on that. I’d also like to mention that he thought I was hot before we were married, too, and thinking someone is sexually attractive is something that happens before you marry that person. It’s not like some light switch goes on after the vows and you’re just all of a sudden like “wow, I was not attracted to you before, but I am now!” lol.

…The difference is that after you are married, you are finally allowed to act on those attractions. 😃
 
I dress in accordance with the time/place/activity/occasion. The problem is, a lot of people here assume that just because a girl wears shorts on a hot day, she is purposely trying make other people lust. Such is not the case whatsoever, and it is a rash and unfair assumption.

Do I dress to look good? Sure, I wanna look good. I definitely don’t dress to look ugly. Do I dress specifically and purposely make other men lust? Absolutely not. So no, it is not my “goal.” I wear what I think looks nice and is appropriate for the occasion.

I have always had a lot of male friends. Men have always respected me a great deal, whether they think I’m attractive or not. I also happen to be married to the most amazing, pure hearted person I’ve ever met. So I think I’m doing quite well on that department. 🙂

Nonetheless, I really don’t want to turn this into another modesty thread. Back to the point, I stand my ground that there is nothing wrong or degrading about my husband telling me he thinks I’m hot, but I think we can both agree on that.
There’s a difference between shorts and short shorts (AKA booty shorts), short shorts basically end at crotch level and are tight, the former is fine, the latter not so much.
 
There’s a difference between shorts and short shorts (AKA booty shorts), short shorts basically end at crotch level and are tight, the former is fine, the latter not so much.
Haha, ok… Dad…?

The shorts I wear are not “long” by any means, but they definitely don’t show my booty, nor do they end at “crotch length” (something I’ve honestly never even seen).
 
I do believe that it is prurient interest that leads us to constantly discuss taut young virgins and immodesty. It gives CAF a good pretext for obsessing over sex.
I certainly see no mentions or even hints at the concepts of ‘youth’ and ‘virginity’ in the article. ‘Innocence’ to a Christian with any familiarity with scripture should mean innocence of ALL serious sin, not sexual sin in particular. And this sort of innocence should be lifelong, not reserved only for the young.

I hardly consider someone who, for example, is an habitual liar, heavy drinker or shoplifter to be ‘innocent’, however virginal they may be. So if a woman dressed modestly but was prone to blasphemy, or rarely seen without a drink in her hand, or constantly talked about how much money she made/spent, she equally would be failing in Archbold’s terms to ‘project innocence’ as if she dressed provocatively.
 
I certainly see no mentions or even hints at the concepts of ‘youth’ and ‘virginity’ in the article. ‘Innocence’ to a Christian with any familiarity with scripture should mean innocence of ALL serious sin, not sexual sin in particular. And this sort of innocence should be lifelong, not reserved only for the young.
I think the problem a lot of people are having is the type of vibe they got from the article. Innocence as you describe above is important for everyone, and everyone should strive to be that type of innocent (free of sin, close to God, etc etc…).

However, to some people (myself included), the article makes it seem that by “innocence,” the author actually means virginal, quiet, delicate, submissive, and maybe having a pretty/innocent “doll like” appearance. Maybe that’s not what he meant at all, and maybe he actually did mean what you were suggesting. But the tone of the article, and the fact that it was aimed at women only (no mention of men being “innocent”) gave off a bad impression to some of us. Not to mention one that seems very focused on appearances.

I for example, by nature, simply do not have the type of look the author seems to idealize. I’m South American and have dark eyes, dark hair, strong facial features, and a darker skin tone. I don’t think I’d fit this author’s ideal of a pretty/innocent look… regardless of what I’m wearing.
 
Haha, ok… Dad…?

The shorts I wear are not “long” by any means, but they definitely don’t show my booty, nor do they end at “crotch length” (something I’ve honestly never even seen).
I forgot, you older people call them Daisy Dukes
 
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