The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

[Debora123]

First off I agree with all your points here. There is a belief out there though that women are the ones who set the rules and make the standards. In other words men are only as good as women require them to be. From a purely biological outlook I think this is the case. A pursuer will only be as good as he has too, in order to catch what he is after. A cheetah wouldn’t run 60mph if 30mph was all it needed to be successful at hunting. Yes, this is a very raw, broad way to look at it but it is the biological imperative. Things have changed some and it is not always the men that are chasing the girls, sometimes its the girls chasing after the men. I think in general the standard holds though and women retain that power over men if they only stepped and took the power they have slowly been giving up for the last 50 years.

I don’t like this, no offense. Neither do I agree with it.

It seems to put the responsibility only on one gender. It is also flawed because women go after men too, not just men after women (though you did note that). With my husband and I, I was the one who initiated our first conversation. I saw him and knew I wanted to get to know him better because he seemed like a very nice guy and was very cute. I was the one going in for the kill.

Also, I think women have a lot MORE power now than they did 50 years ago.

 

[Debora123]

Men can and should have standards too. And sometimes they need to (which is not to say “X or Y is too bad for me”, in fact, it’s rather painful because the brain has to do what the heart loathes to). For what’s worth it, men have themselves to blame partly for things that happen to them since they allow them to happen, as opposed to refusing to tolerate them.

It’s a 2 way street. Both genders have a certain responsibility for the other and for themselves.

 

[chevalier]

It’s a 2 way street. Both genders have a certain responsibility for the other and for themselves.

I just meant to say that there’s no such thing as big bad men tormenting the oppressed women. Women hurt men too and women are equally capable of doing mean or immoral things.

Also, I think women have a lot MORE power now than they did 50 years ago.

In politics or business yes. But in relationships and the related area, I’m not sure of that… It’s like who has more power: a free farmer or a nobleman that can order things to happen but is himself almost owned by a bigger nobleman? The way I see it, women have asserted for themselves all sorts of “power” or “liberty” but they’ve given up a lot of themselves, seeing all sorts of troubles that afflict them. Sexual revolution has not mady anybody a happier person.

 

[Walking_Home]

I totally agree with you. Men help just as much to foster the demand for sexy looks. Tonight my sister told me one of her very young colleagues just got “new breasts”. The young girl felt low selfesteem because she had small breasts. Guess what. Her brother was the one who told my sister about this and he, as well as everyone in his family, had encouraged the young lady to get breast implants.

And no, don’t tell me she was afraid what her girlfriends would say if she stayed the way she was, an otherwise beautiful girl,** but without porneffect apparently, until now.**

I was ever so sad to hear this. Girls are victims of this body-cult culture and they have to constantly live up to totally extreme things… Makes me really sad how stupid men and women can be. Then I see how men even on CAF look at pornography and say how they can only fall for girls with such and such body shapes, and I am… I don’t understand how such people can think there isn’t a lot of resentment and lack of trust going on, even among christian men and women, when the animality and fear of being disliked is so strong in this show- and competition culture. Yuk is all I can say… In my view men are not the victims and they need to clean up their own act.

And women gotta stop letting themselves be driven by low selfesteem ,accept their own looks, and recognize the demonic influences in our culture. Women need to be solidary with women and not flaunt their private parts at other women’s men, or getting all sort of distorted things done to their bodies so that less and less women dare to look normal and different from that sick artificial man-dream.

My best friend once said he was often embarrased at his own gender, because he felt his male friends were driven so much by primitive drives and objectified women.
I also once met a guy who repeatedly refused to enter a room if his pal was waching pornographic movies in there, and he refused to watch sex scenes in movies. Because of these few men, I have hope still that there are some who are not total idiots.

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There are many,many women – who are naturally well endowed – and I would never say – they have a “porn effect”.

 

[Nate13]

Also, I think women have a lot MORE power now than they did 50 years ago.

The previous post I responded to seemed to dictate otherwise. When men have options and no reason to settle down because every woman is available in theory due to contraception, it puts more pressure on women to change themselves in order to compete. It certainly does not help push men towards being more virtuous in any case. Obviously this is no excuse, but it always helps to make the moral choices easier if you want people to be moral. A very simple way to see how biologically different men and women are is to just look at how many men struggle with masturbation compared to women. (61% to apparently 38% of adults)

psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/200903/how-common-is-masturbation-really

 

[Lily0fthevalley]

Let’s do this:

Below is a picture of me and 2 girlfriends. We were walking down an outdoor mall on a hot summer day in Florida. What we are wearing is probably the minimum of what is common/popular - usually, people cover up more than that, but given our time and place, and the temperature, this is pretty much the minimum. Do you think we look raunchy?

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1146&pictureid=11518

I agree with this post. The girl on the right wearing the read shirt is about the style i normally dress on a very hot sticky humid day. That is about the norm of style around here and ever so rarely i see someone that shouldn’t be wearing the clothes they wear, there is such thing as too much, especially with teenagers, adults are no better though. I guess with my generation we see what clothing is tasteful than someone who probably from the 50’s and 60’s .

 

[Debora123]

I just meant to say that there’s no such thing as big bad men tormenting the oppressed women. Women hurt men too and women are equally capable of doing mean or immoral things.

Sure, but do you not agree then that respect and standard is a 2 ways street??

In politics or business yes. But in relationships and the related area, I’m not sure of that… It’s like who has more power: a free farmer or a nobleman that can order things to happen but is himself almost owned by a bigger nobleman? The way I see it, women have asserted for themselves all sorts of “power” or “liberty” but they’ve given up a lot of themselves, seeing all sorts of troubles that afflict them. Sexual revolution has not mady anybody a happier person.

I’d say in ALL aspects, honestly.

Though I wasn’t around in the 1950, I know a bit about the way women were looked upon, and it doesn’t sound good.

 

[Debora123]

I agree with this post. The girl on the right wearing the read shirt is about the style i normally dress on a very hot sticky humid day. That is about the norm of style around here and ever so rarely i see someone that shouldn’t be wearing the clothes they wear, there is such thing as too much, especially with teenagers, adults are no better though. I guess with my generation we see what clothing is tasteful than someone who probably from the 50’s and 60’s .

 

[Walking_Home]

The previous post I responded to seemed to dictate otherwise. When men have options and no reason to settle down because every woman is available in theory due to contraception, it puts more pressure on women to change themselves in order to compete. ** It certainly does not help push men towards being more virtuous in any case. ** Obviously this is no excuse, but it always helps to make the moral choices easier if you want people to be moral. A very simple way to see how biologically different men and women are is to just look at how many men struggle with masturbation compared to women.

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The problem here – is making someone else accountable/responsible for how a man behaves-- and this is not correct. A true virtuous man – will be virtuous–with a skimpy dressed woman – just as he will with one more covered up.

 

[chevalier]

Sure, but do you not agree then that respect and standard is a 2 ways street??

I don’t just agree, I perfectly claim that on my own.

Though I wasn’t around in the 1950, I know a bit about the way women were looked upon, and it doesn’t sound good.

Well, I wasn’t around at that time either. I guess now there’s more of a way to resist abuse successfully. But it saddens me how people of either sex use their “liberty” to drag themselves low or, while being Catholic, assert the “right” and availability for fornication should they so choose, validating the sick paradigm in effect.

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The problem here – is making someone else accountable/responsible for how a man behaves-- and this is not correct. A true virtuous man – will be virtuous–with a skimpy dressed woman – just as he will with one more covered up.

True, although not 100% so (virtuous people have been tempted successfully), and the fact that a virtuous man will be virtuous even around a woman who is not behaving like a virtuous woman does not make it an everything goes for the woman. Each of them is accountable for himself, but also trying to tempt or corrupt the other is actually their own act (seducers of both sexes are accountable for seduction).

 

[carguy]

I hate when women get plastic surgery. I have never not will I ever date fake women. I don’t get what guys see in girls that wear so much make up. Of the women I have dated while I found them attractive when we where on dates or doing what ever I wasn’t thinking man I want to sleep with them ever though I think they are very beautiful. Why can’t more guys think like this, I mean the girl didn’t know how to act because I didn’t see them as just a way to get laid, but a person I cared about and wanted to be around regardless of sex. What a sad way we live when sex is everything.

 

[Debora123]

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The problem here – is making someone else accountable/responsible for how a man behaves-- and this is not correct. A true virtuous man – will be virtuous–with a skimpy dressed woman – just as he will with one more covered up.

Yes.

If a man is going to act trashy with other girls, but gentlemanly to me, I wouldn’t want to be with him anyway. I also probably wouldn’t think he was a very good guy at all.

 

[Nate13]

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The problem here – is making someone else accountable/responsible for how a man behaves-- and this is not correct. A true virtuous man – will be virtuous–with a skimpy dressed woman – just as he will with one more covered up.

No, its acknowledging the biological imperatives that drive us. Men and woman are not just blank canvases who’s only differences are what their sexual organs look like. My point is that women have a greater chance of being a driving force behind changing the morals of a society than do men.

 

[chevalier]

Yes.

If a man is going to act trashy with other girls, but gentlemanly to me, I wouldn’t want to be with him anyway. I also probably wouldn’t think he was a very good guy at all.

For the record, I believe that being gentlemanly (or ladylike) does not preclude communicating displeasure at being treated in less than virtuous ways or even communicating one’s strong opposition to a chosen lifestyle or act.

 

[Debora123]

I don’t just agree, I perfectly claim that on my own.

Ok, that’s good. Seemed like you disagreed in the previous post when your response to that was “well what I actually meant was…”

Well, I wasn’t around at that time either. I guess now there’s more of a way to resist abuse successfully. But it saddens me how people of either sex use their “liberty” to drag themselves low or, while being Catholic, assert the “right” and availability for fornication should they so choose, validating the sick paradigm in effect.

Maybe it’s best to conclude that times were not better back then, just with different problems.

 

[Debora123]

True, although not 100% so (virtuous people have been tempted successfully), and the fact that a virtuous man will be virtuous even around a woman who is not behaving like a virtuous woman does not make it an everything goes for the woman. Each of them is accountable for himself, but also trying to tempt or corrupt the other is actually their own act (seducers of both sexes are accountable for seduction).

The problem is, if a guy is not going to be able to control himself around real life women being real life temptations, then how in the WORLD would I be able to trust him not to look at porn when he’s completely alone and the gratification is only one mouse click away??

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

The problem here – is making someone else accountable/responsible for how a man behaves-- and this is not correct. A true virtuous man – will be virtuous–with a skimpy dressed woman – just as he will with one more covered up.

True, although not 100% so (virtuous people have been tempted successfully), and the fact that a virtuous man will be virtuous even around a woman who is not behaving like a virtuous woman does not make it an everything goes for the woman.** Each of them is accountable for himself, but also trying to tempt or corrupt the other is actually their own act (seducers of both sexes are accountable for seduction)**.

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If the person actively engages in actions of seduction-- yes. But this entails much more than what a woman wears.

 

[Nate13]

The problem is, if a guy is not going to be able to control himself around real life women being real life temptations, then how in the WORLD would I be able to trust him not to look at porn when he’s completely alone and the gratification is only one mouse click away??

True, but if your the one virtuous woman in a sea of not so virtuous ones you set a bar that wasn’t there before. He would have no cause to contemplate reaching that level of virtue for a woman if you were not there. And what you have going for you is that every man in the depth of his heart wants the affection of a virtuous woman. You give his conscience a chance to lead him there if there is enough cause to make him think. The opposite works as well for men being a beacon, only not as well.

 

[Debora123]

No, its acknowledging the biological imperatives that drive us. Men and woman are not just blank canvases who’s only differences are what their sexual organs look like. My point is that women have a greater chance of being a driving force behind changing the morals of a society than do men.

…AKA, they have the responsibility?

I don’t think so. I think the responsibility is pretty 50/50, not 30/70 or whatever.

Sure, there’s the whole sex/biological thing, but then there’s also the MANLY thing. As strong as a sex drive may be, a man also has a certain instinct, not to mention a calling from God, to guard and protect.

 

[Nate13]

…AKA, they have the responsibility?

I don’t think so. I think the responsibility is pretty 50/50, not 30/70 or whatever.

Sure, there’s the whole sex/biological thing, but then there’s also the MANLY thing. As strong as a sex drive may be, a man also has a certain instinct, not to mention a calling from God, to guard and protect.

Haha so typical. Why are virtuous people climbing over themselves to be the follower? Why not take the power that GOD has naturally designed women to have and use it for good? I try to set the best example I can as well, but I can’t help it if a woman doing the same naturally has a greater effect than my own example.