The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

[Nate13]

If we surmise that people in positions of greater influence have more responsibility to live a moral life, then we’d also be saying that people with less influence have more leniency to not live a moral life.

We all have to live a moral life, regardless of power or influence.

Let me put it like this:

I’m the oldest of 6 children. Being the oldest has some inherent characteristics that go with it usually. Growing up, if I ran out in the street to play, two or three others ran out in the street to play following behind me. If I did something dangerous, two or three younger ones would be right there to do it as well. If I do something immoral as if it is right, 5 others are watching me and apt to be convinced that it is right. My decisions not only affect me, but many others as well.

I would look at it as we all have equal responsibility to ourselves and to protect our own souls to lead moral lives. We have different responsibilities with relation to what God expects from us in relation to others.

 

[bmullins]

Once again, your situation of being followed makes it seem like it would be perfectly ok to run into the street if no one was watching. The true Christian (which I think we all fall short of) is the person who whether or not anyone is watching them, does what is right. That even if no one was watching, they wouldn’t run into the street haphazardly.

If God is willing to go out after the 1 sheep, then what makes it seem less horrible for 3 people to be lost instead of 50? Our actions shouldn’t change at all from one scenario to the next. We are not freed to do a ‘little’ more evil just because someone watches me less than they do you.

In my RE class we were discussing dating. One girl spoke up and said “we shouldn’t date unless we are ready for marriage, otherwise it’s just a really good friendship.” Another girl said “What are you a nun?”

The question makes it seem as if a nun is held to a higher moral standard than you and I are. I pointed out that the only difference between a nun and one of them was a nun had chosen a specific vocation. Both the children in my class and the nun have the same belief that sex is for marriage. That doesn’t change because of who you are, where you’re at, or how many people look up to you… even the lowliest Catholic should endeavor to live up to God’s moral law as perfectly as they can.

 

[Debora123]

Let me put it like this:

I’m the oldest of 6 children. Being the oldest has some inherent characteristics that go with it usually. Growing up, if I ran out in the street to play, two or three others ran out in the street to play following behind me. If I did something dangerous, two or three younger ones would be right there to do it as well. If I do something immoral as if it is right, 5 others are watching me and apt to be convinced that it is right. My decisions not only affect me, but many others as well.

I would look at it as we all have equal responsibility to ourselves and to protect our own souls to lead moral lives. We have different responsibilities with relation to what God expects from us in relation to others.

I think your siblings have just as much responsibility to live a moral life as you do.

When I stand before God on judgement day and he asks me why I [insert sin here], somehow I don’t think it’d go over too well if I responded with “because my older sister did it.”

And as bmullins said, we are all responsible to do the right thing all the time, regardless of who’s watching and who’s not watching… etc etc.

 

[Walking_Home]

Nate13:

Let me put it like this:

I’m the oldest of 6 children. Being the oldest has some inherent characteristics that go with it usually. Growing up, if I ran out in the street to play, two or three others ran out in the street to play following behind me. If I did something dangerous, two or three younger ones would be right there to do it as well. If I do something immoral as if it is right, 5 others are watching me and apt to be convinced that it is right. My decisions not only affect me, but many others as well.

I would look at it as we all have equal responsibility to ourselves and to protect our own souls to lead moral lives. We have different responsibilities with relation to what God expects from us in relation to others.

I think your siblings have just as much responsibility to live a moral life as you do.

When I stand before God on judgement day and he asks me why I [insert sin here], somehow I don’t think it’d go over too well if I responded with “because my older sister did it.”

And as bmullins said, we are all responsible to do the right thing all the time, regardless of who’s watching and who’s not watching… etc etc.

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Ditto.

 

[Nate13]

Once again, your situation of being followed makes it seem like it would be perfectly ok to run into the street if no one was watching. The true Christian (which I think we all fall short of) is the person who whether or not anyone is watching them, does what is right. That even if no one was watching, they wouldn’t run into the street haphazardly.

If God is willing to go out after the 1 sheep, then what makes it seem less horrible for 3 people to be lost instead of 50? Our actions shouldn’t change at all from one scenario to the next. We are not freed to do a ‘little’ more evil just because someone watches me less than they do you.

In my RE class we were discussing dating. One girl spoke up and said “we shouldn’t date unless we are ready for marriage, otherwise it’s just a really good friendship.” Another girl said “What are you a nun?”

The question makes it seem as if a nun is held to a higher moral standard than you and I are. I pointed out that the only difference between a nun and one of them was a nun had chosen a specific vocation. Both the children in my class and the nun have the same belief that sex is for marriage. That doesn’t change because of who you are, where you’re at, or how many people look up to you… even the lowliest Catholic should endeavor to live up to God’s moral law as perfectly as they can.

Help me out here then because I think it all depends on the perspective you look at it from.

Answer me this: As the consequences of our actions increase responsibility increases…? yes? no?

And if the word “responsibility” does not fit, what word does?

Its like we are equal…yet not equal…yet equal all at the same time…

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

People seem to forget that men are far more visual than women hence how men look at naked images and women read “romance” “novels” (literary porn). How people dress affects greatly how men respond. If how women look is irrelevant why do women spend so much more time grooming themselves? Why do they buy so many more clothes? They do so because it matters.

 

[Nate13]

I’m going to really twist some minds with this

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Now is it just me or does that sound like Luke is saying those with more gifts have more responsibility…

I would contest that these two ideas can exist together. A person given more gifts has more responsibility to use those gifts wisely because there are greater consequences if he/she does not, but at the same time we are all equally called to use our gifts wisely no matter how many God gives us.

Not equal, yet equal… It’s all about perspective.

The Parable of the Talents would also be applicable here I believe as well.

How about if I worded it like this…

“If an influential person is not virtuous, it will most likely have greater consequences than, if an non-influential person is not virtuous.”

 

[Nate13]

People seem to forget that men are far more visual than women hence how men look at naked images and women read “romance” “novels” (literary porn). How people dress affects greatly how men respond. If how women look is irrelevant why do women spend so much more time grooming themselves? Why do they buy so many more clothes? They do so because it matters.

Watch out they are going to chew you out “Men read romance novels too sometimes!”

 

[Nate13]

I thought of a good analogy that might make this idea more clear with respect to how things can be equal yet unequal at the same time.

Imagine we have a flat tax of 10%.

Person A pays $10,000 in taxes.
Person B pays $1,000 in taxes.

At first this appears unequal since one person has to pay more than the other. They are expected to pay different amounts, and in that regard one has more responsibility than the other to the government.

However it is equal in that they are both taxed the same percentage of their income and therefore have the same expectations/responsibilities in that regard. Unequal…yet equal…

God works in a similar manner.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

There are many men on this very forum who even talk about chastity and purity, yet there are still some who you would find surfing pictures on face book of other women, looking through the news to try to find naughty tid bits about cute actresses, and even looking directly at dirty pictures through the net.

I don’t think that’s your call to make. :doh2:

My decisions not only affect me, but many others as well.

I would look at it as we all have equal responsibility to ourselves and to protect our own souls to lead moral lives. We have different responsibilities with relation to what God expects from us in relation to others.

I don’t know if it was a great priest or bishop, or Saint who said this, but your words are very close to the statement: “Our souls touch one another, and everyday of our lives we will lead others to Heaven or Hell.”

…we are all responsible to do the right thing all the time…

Isn’t dressing modestly a responsible thing? Yes, even our dress will be something we are held accountable for on Judgement Day.

I didn’t want to bite, but this thread has gotten quite a bit out of control. I cannot allow Catholics to talk about modesty, innocence, and integrity in such a brash, flippant, New Age way. Modesty or innocence or our gosh-darn Female Mystique is not to be regarded as a “fashion statement” - something I may or may not put on today, depending on whether or not I have the shoes to match…**IN FACT, these things are crowns of glory in Heaven! **

If it’s something that is worshiped on Earth, you can be assured it is not to be found with God. Don’t know what I mean? “Flaunt it if you got it” “Whatever works for you and strokes YOUR ego” “It’s the men who are guilty, not the women” …and all the other garbage the world feeds us. If you want to be treated like a lady, ACT like one! WE call our men to a higher level of respect, as they call us! Stop listening to the world, the flesh and the Devil.

 

[Walking_Home]

People seem to forget that men are far more visual than women hence how men look at naked images and women read “romance” “novels” (literary porn).** How people dress affects greatly how men respond.** If how women look is irrelevant why do women spend so much more time grooming themselves? Why do they buy so many more clothes? They do so because it matters.

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Cop-out. No one can hold another responsible for one’s own weaknesses/sin/lack of virtue.

 

[Walking_Home]

I don’t think that’s your call to make. :doh2:


I don’t know if it was a great priest or bishop, or Saint who said this, but your words are very close to the statement: “Our souls touch one another, and everyday of our lives we will lead others to Heaven or Hell.”

Isn’t dressing modestly a responsible thing? Yes, even our dress will be something we are held accountable for on Judgement Day.

I didn’t want to bite, but this thread has gotten quite a bit out of control. I cannot allow Catholics to talk about modesty, innocence, and integrity in such a brash, flippant, New Age way. Modesty or innocence or our gosh-darn Female Mystique is not to be regarded as a “fashion statement” - something I may or may not put on today, depending on whether or not I have the shoes to match…**IN FACT, these things are crowns of glory in Heaven! **

If it’s something that is worshiped on Earth, you can be assured it is not to be found with God. Don’t know what I mean? “Flaunt it if you got it” “Whatever works for you and strokes YOUR ego” “It’s the men who are guilty, not the women” …and all the other garbage the world feeds us. If you want to be treated like a lady, ACT like one! WE call our men to a higher level of respect, as they call us! Stop listening to the world, the flesh and the Devil.

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True virtue – treats all women like a lady. It is thinking like yours-- that leads men to treat those who are not up to their “standards” – as someone not “worthy”-- someone “lesser” – not worthy of respect. This nothing other than promoting violence against women.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

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True virtue – treats all women like a lady. It is thinking like yours-- that leads men to treat those who are not up to their “standards” – as someone not “worthy”-- someone “lesser” – not worthy of respect. This nothing other than promoting violence against women.

The world has sin. Corruption. Human beings are fallible.

I could reply to your “Men should treat all women like ladies” with “Women should treat all men like gentlemen.”

Have you ever read Proverbs chapter 30 entitled, “The Ideal Wife,” or are you a feminist? Men and women are equally called to the equal kind of respect God had given them at Creation. So enough with the strawman.

 

[Walking_Home]

The world has sin. Corruption. Human beings are fallible.

I could reply to your “Men should treat all women like ladies” with “Women should treat all men like gentlemen.”

Have you ever read Proverbs chapter 30 entitled, “The Ideal Wife,” or are you a feminist? Men and women are equally called to the equal kind of respect God had given them at Creation. So enough with the strawman.

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Not strawmen – but nice try. This kind of thinking —" If you want to be treated like a lady, Act like one" --leads to viewing a person as lesser and not worthy. And Yes, this is violence towards the person.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

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Not strawmen – but nice try. This kind of thinking —" If you want to be treated like a lady, Act like one" --leads to viewing a person as lesser and not worthy. And Yes, this is violence towards the person.

Yes, act like one.

“Treat others the way you would like to be treated.”:curtsey:

What’s really sad is the thinking that a woman can wear whatever she wants and do whatever she wants, but then pouts when there may be some guidelines to how she should live properly. The thinking that there shouldn’t be any accountability to anyone is a real tragedy.

 

[Walking_Home]

Yes, act like one.

“Treat others the way you would like to be treated.”:curtsey:

What’s really sad is the thinking that a woman can wear whatever she wants and do whatever she wants, but then pouts when there may be some guidelines to how she should live properly. The thinking that there shouldn’t be any accountability to anyone is a real tragedy.

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The real tragedy – is making one human being “lesser” and “less worthy”–than another.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

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The real tragedy – is making one human being “lesser” and “less worthy”–than another.

Yes, that’s a big one as well. Don’t women kind of make themselves “less worthy” when they choose to dress immodestly? So much so that men can reduce them to a piece of meat with one glance? I’d prefer to be a human being over a ham sandwich.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

The real tragedy – is making one human being “lesser” and “less worthy”–than another.

Yes, that’s a big one as well. Don’t women kind of make themselves “less worthy” when they choose to dress immodestly? So much so that men can reduce them to a piece of meat with one glance? I’d prefer to be a human being over a ham sandwich.

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It is people being “taught” to view them as less worthy. Either continue to “teach” this violence against women — making them into a “piece of meat” – or break the cycle and teach that they are not less worthy and lesser value.

 

[chevalier]

Ok, that’s good. Seemed like you disagreed in the previous post when your response to that was “well what I actually meant was…”

I guess it’s best to clarify. We have a history of each interpreting the same words differently.

Maybe it’s best to conclude that times were not better back then, just with different problems.

Like always in history, I guess.

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It is people being “taught” to view them as less worthy. Either continue to “teach” this violence against women — making them into a “piece of meat” – or break the cycle and teach that they are not less worthy and lesser value.

Nope, not at all. Both men and women, when they dress themselves in ways that objectify their bodies, appear to diminish their values. Chippendale is not a respectable profession for a man, is it? If a man dresses himself like a gigolo, he does appear to diminish his value. This has nothing to do with male domination of women, discrimination etc.

We are to respect the prostitute. Does that mean the prostitute is a fine, viable career of choice (except that it has little to do with career choice in most actual cases)? Not at all. It’s the same with clothing that way crosses the line in bringing out sexual associations. Respect the person but you really don’t need to respect the clothing, let alone validate it or pretend everything’s okay.

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The real tragedy – is making one human being “lesser” and “less worthy”–than another.

In terms of racism or some kind of social ideology where unless you’re born into the right caste you’re a nothing, yes. On the other hand, while only God knows the hearts of men, men know the actions of men, and having a reputation is a natural consequence of one’s actions and choices, some of which are more honourable, some less. Taking away people’s property detracts from reputation. Abusing others physically detracts from reputation. Living an immoral lifestyle detracts from reputation. Everybody is equal, but not every choice everybody makes is equal.

What’s really sad is the thinking that a woman can wear whatever she wants and do whatever she wants, but then pouts when there may be some guidelines to how she should live properly. The thinking that there shouldn’t be any accountability to anyone is a real tragedy.

I agree and, for the record, apply the same principle to men.

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Cop-out. No one can hold another responsible for one’s own weaknesses/sin/lack of virtue.

You did not manage to negate Dakota’s statemen that how people dress affects how people respond with anything close to logic.

Your own statement can be turned around: the wearer (male or female, I don’t care) can’t get away with everything he wants on the basis of the argument that e.g. modesty is in the eyes of the beholder or that no one can hold him (the wearer) responsible for his own lack of virtue in looking. The wearer can’t blame the lookers for his choices of what to wear, which, in so far as 1) the wearer has knowledge of people’s reactions, 2) the wearer has use of reason, the wearer is responsible for and they indeed reflect his virtue.

 

[severus68]

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Cop-out. No one can hold another responsible for one’s own weaknesses/sin/lack of virtue.

Agreed.