The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

[Debora123]

…Which is why I specified within the boundaries of what is “appropriate and respectable.”

With that being said, however, I’m not going to be as rash at to completely rule out “hot pants” and brand them with some sort of official immodesty emblem. I’m not quite sure what they are, or what pair of pants would constitute as being “hot pants.”

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Speaking of which, I just typed in “hot pants” on google images and… well… let’s just say I did not get pictures of pants on my screen, lol!

 

[passer_by]

Would you mind clarifying what exactly you mean here?

Do you mean:

1. That it is impossible for fathers to teach their sons to look at women with innocent hearts when a woman is dressed provocatively?

OR

1. That is is impossible for men to look at women with innocent hearts when a woman is dressed provocatively?

Either one of those sounds pretty terrible and insulting to the entire male gender.

Relax, if something is insulting, and if it were true, then it does not make it least true. If I say men can’t tolerate the pain of that a woman tolerates at child birth or that men can’t give birth to children, its not an insult. its the truth. The reason I am pointing this out is that sometimes many people like to fend off arguments by saying but that will be insulting. As you can see here, that is not a logical objection.

That being said, what I was saying is that either one by it-self will not work. If fathers advise their male kids to look at a woman with a pure heart and the women around him are dressing provocatively, then its pointless. Similarly, if the women around him are behaving like Catholic ladies and the men are not disciplined, its a failure.

So its not one or the other. It’s both together.

 

[chevalier]

I was going to post an example but exceeded the character limit. So here it goes:

Suppose I want to look dashing and get some compliments from women. This is probably a poor idea from the point of view of humility but anyway, I wear that nice suit and hope to be appreciated. As a result, I am found aesthetically attractive or even possibly sexually attractive (I hope the latter stops at the mere realisation) but my appearance is not intended to bring out sexual associations and not really capable of bringing out any, other than my just being a tall man in a suit. But if I, say, am going to give a lecture to a number of exchange students from a culture in which, let’s say, three piece navy suits with red ties are known to be highly sexually stimulating or believed to be sexually charged (not just highly attractive but on part with “hot pants”), I opt for a different suit or for a pair of jeans and a sweater instead. And this is not humiliating to me, nor does it degrade me or diminish my dignity or unduly restrict me in any way or make me a victim of a female-dominated world that wants to punish me for being an attractive man. I would probably be sinning if I ignored the news of the effect of the suit because I said to myself: “those young things need to watch their own eyes, I can wear whatever I want and the whole responsibility is theirs,” and I would be sinning if I wore that particular suit precisely because it were found sexually irresistible in those exchange students’ culture, while refusing to exercise restraint in my pursuit of attention. I would be mortally sinning if I wanted them to imagine having sex with me or be aroused and giving in to it as a result of seeing me so dressed.

(Likewise I hope the students will ignore me or try to limit themselves to trying to impress me, without trying to confirm their sexual attractiveness before themselves by eliciting the wrong kind of gazes from me, not like I’d give them any (I’d sooner fake an asthma attack and call off the class ).)

 

[Debora123]

Lol it does not get much more ironic than that, to have people saying a speaker giving a modesty talk is immodest herself. I have seen her give an entire talk, and her story is pretty moving. I will be the last one in line as far as calling her immodest goes, we could all be taking lessons from her

However, I highly doubt you would like me putting words into your mouth on your views on another subject so don’t put words into those “traditionalist” Catholics mouths on how they would see something. I’m one of them and I don’t have that view.

I don’t mean to put words in any one’s mouth, and I didn’t mention any specific person or name.

Truth is, I HAVE seen MANY people on the traditionalist forum here speak out against women wearing pants. Especially tight jeans.

I only said this to make a point that we can’t always please everyone, that is all. Of course, I disagree that the lady was being immodest.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Speaking of which, I just typed in “hot pants” on google images and… well… let’s just say I did not get pictures of pants on my screen, lol!

 

[Debora123]

Your cultural boundaries and who you are in Christ are two different things. As Ms. Darrow said, we are “walking billboards for Christ” not our culture. So the culture has nothing to do with it.

Well actually it does. It does specifically when it comes to modesty, that is. If it depended on the Church and not our culture, the Church would have some sort of standard for all of us Christians to dress by. But alas, she does not. She in fact claims it DOES depend on what our culture deems as modest or not.

 

[passer_by]

I do understand the article point.

The author try to relate pretty with women’s innocent beauty, and thus condemn “hot” as related to “dirty beauty”.

My points are

1. Women are created to be beautiful. There is nothing wrong with a woman who try to look beautiful.
2. To relate the way women dress with her innocence is being unfair to women, because both men and women aren’t completely innocent. Thus if one expects innocence from women, they must expect innocence from men too. If one forgive sinful men, he must forgive sinful women too. In otherwords, if men are innocent, why would they bother complaining about women’s dress? They complain because they aren’t innocent, and therefore they have no right to expect innocence from women, for they aren’t innocent either.
3. To say “if you want to be treated like a lady, dress like one” is to give “valid reasons” for men to devalue women based on dress alone.

I think in general its ok to judge men and women depending on how they dress. If you come to an interview wearing a bikini, or man wearing shorts, you would not get the job for an example.

Similarly, women DO have a responsibility to dress well. If they don’t dress well and try to dress provocatively, then they will have to give account to our Lord for the souls they tempted.

Now you might disagree but unless you have actual reasons, there is no real point arguing.

 

[Walking_Home]

Relax, if something is insulting, and if it were true, then it does not make it least true. If I say men can’t tolerate the pain of that a woman tolerates at child birth or that men can’t give birth to children, its not an insult. its the truth. The reason I am pointing this out is that sometimes many people like to fend off arguments by saying but that will be insulting. As you can see here, that is not a logical objection.

That being said, what I was saying is that either one by it-self will not work.** If fathers advise their male kids to look at a woman with a pure heart and the women around him are dressing provocatively, then its pointless.** Similarly, if the women around him are behaving like Catholic ladies and the men are not disciplined, its a failure.

So its not one or the other. It’s both together.

---

“Pointless”. To say its “pointless” – is to basically bring humanity down to an animal level. There would be no difference between a male of an animal species – who has no option to but to react when the female is in heat – and a human male --not being able to not look at a woman with a pure heart – because of what she wears. It also denies – the Grace in the Sacraments – to help us overcome our weaknesses/sins – and purify our hearts/minds.

 

[Debora123]

Relax, if something is insulting, and if it were true, then it does not make it least true. If I say men can’t tolerate the pain of that a woman tolerates at child birth or that men can’t give birth to children, its not an insult. its the truth. The reason I am pointing this out is that sometimes many people like to fend off arguments by saying but that will be insulting. As you can see here, that is not a logical objection.

That being said, what I was saying is that either one by it-self will not work. If fathers advise their male kids to look at a woman with a pure heart and the women around him are dressing provocatively, then its pointless. Similarly, if the women around him are behaving like Catholic ladies and the men are not disciplined, its a failure.

So its not one or the other. It’s both together.

Well the REASON it is insulting is because it is not true. A man IS perfectly capable of looking at a woman who is dressed provocatively and not lust.

You are right that both men and women alike are called to purity. However, that does not give one the green light to act impure if the other one is acting impure.

 

[passer_by]

Well actually it does. It does specifically when it comes to modesty, that is. If it depended on the Church and not our culture, the Church would have some sort of standard for all of us Christians to dress by. But alas, she does not. She in fact claims it DOES depend on what our culture deems as modest or not.

I think you have misunderstood the teaching on modesty.

Culture can be good or bad. Western culture right now is immoral i.e. decadent in the sense that it promotes immoral activity. Many of the cultures in the East will be ready to provide you academic understanding of the state of Western culture if you are so interested.

So to say that ‘what I wear is ok because my culture approves of it’ is not always ok. It might actually be an immoral culture in which case you dressing a certain way is actually immoral.

 

[passer_by]

Well the REASON it is insulting is because it is not true. A man IS perfectly capable of looking at a woman who is dressed provocatively and not lust.

Possible? sure. Easy? NOOOOOOOO!

There is something called Concupiscence which affects both men and women.

You are right that both men and women alike are called to purity. However, that does not give one the green light to act impure if the other one is acting impure.

It obviously does not give the green light. They will both be wrong. But the one who is tempting the other bears greater responsibility for both their actions on the day of accounting.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Well actually it does. It does specifically when it comes to modesty, that is. If it depended on the Church and not our culture, the Church would have some sort of standard for all of us Christians to dress by. But alas, she does not. She in fact claims it DOES depend on what our culture deems as modest or not.

That is because of Free will.

The Church is not going to tell us what to wear like God is not going to force us to go to Heaven.

But our consciences must be formed within the Church, so that the Church–not the culture we live in–guides our decision making.

 

[Debora123]

I think you have misunderstood the teaching on modesty.

Culture can be good or bad. Western culture right now is immoral i.e. decadent in the sense that it promotes immoral activity. Many of the cultures in the East will be ready to provide you academic understanding of the state of Western culture if you are so interested.

So to say that ‘what I wear is ok because my culture approves of it’ is not always ok. It might actually be an immoral culture in which case you dressing a certain way is actually immoral.

So you are claiming that Western Culture standard of modest dress is immoral.

Can you point out to me in which official Catholic source this is stated? Did any recent pope even specifically say that Western Culture standard of modesty is immodest? Or is it just your opinion?

And let me ask you this, how do you know that what YOU are wearing is ok?

 

[passer_by]

---

“Pointless”. To say its “pointless” – is to basically bring humanity down to an animal level. There would be no difference between a male of an animal species – who has no option to but to react when the female is in heat – and a human male --not being able to not look at a woman with a pure heart – because of what she wears. It also denies – the Grace in the Sacraments – to help us overcome our weaknesses/sins – and purify our hearts/minds.

You are being one sided here.

Just as GRACE is important and useful, it also requires our participation in it. There is such a thing as “FALLING OUT OF GRACE”. Even in the Bible, you get many examples of holy men who fell for out of grace and did unholy things due to temptation.

So take the following example:-

1. Woman dresses inappropriately
2. Man who sees her lusts

Now this does not mean the man and woman are animals. But they have both forgotten their humanity and behaving like animals to a certain degree. The woman is behaving like an animal in not concealing what is private and dressing in a way that is tempting to others which makes her an animal to a greater degree. The man is then lusting which BTW depending on how provocatively she was dressed, the man might not even be completely morally culpable for his thoughts.

 

[Debora123]

Possible? sure. Easy? NOOOOOOOO!

There is something called Concupiscence which affects both men and women.

Jesus didn’t say living a moral life would be easy. He said it would be hard. But he said it would be possible.

And you are changing your stance. First you said it was impossible, which is what a few of us took issue with. Now you are saying that it is just hard. The latter is true.

It obviously does not give the green light. They will both be wrong. But the one who is tempting the other bears greater responsibility for both their actions on the day of accounting.

Maybe, maybe not. I guess God is the only one who can judge that for sure, and He’s the only one who can know what the wearer’s intent was or what was in her/his heart.

 

[Walking_Home]

Possible? sure. Easy? NOOOOOOOO!

There is something called Concupiscence which affects both men and women.

It obviously does not give the green light. They will both be wrong. But the one who is tempting the other bears greater responsibility for both their actions on the day of accounting.

---

Each and everyone of us is responsible for our own weaknesses/sins. Neither you or I can hold another responsible for the sin we commit. Do do so – would be against our own dignity and freedom. That we had no other alternative but to give into our weakness (concupiscence) and sin.

 

[chevalier]

Truth is, I HAVE seen MANY people on the traditionalist forum here speak out against women wearing pants. Especially tight jeans.

I would not like to offend anyone but I am not a fan of tight jeans on any person of either sex. This is not to say they are necessarily sexually immodest or that anything is objectively wrong with them. However, I see them as somewhat TMI (and actually slightly sexual). A bit like wearing tights without anything on top of them (still not close to how men dressed in 16th century, and by the way, they were painted with oversized codpieces in order to underline their power to carry on the dynasty and now THAT is something awful).

 

[Debora123]

That is because of Free will.

The Church is not going to tell us what to wear like God is not going to force us to go to Heaven.

The church WOULD tell us what to wear if she had some sort of standard of dress. This does not mean She’s forcing us to go to heaven.

After all, the Church is very specific with us and gives us strict guidelines on other issues, such as licit sexual activity. So She would have no problem giving us strict guidelines on dress too, if she had any.

But our consciences must be formed within the Church, so that the Church–not the culture we live in–guides our decision making.

Lucky for me, my conscience has been formed within the Church.

 

[Debora123]

I would not like to offend anyone but I am not a fan of tight jeans on any person of either sex. This is not to say they are necessarily sexually immodest or that anything is objectively wrong with them. However, I see them as somewhat TMI (and actually slightly sexual). A bit like wearing tights without anything on top of them (still not close to how men dressed in 16th century, and by the way, they were painted with oversized codpieces in order to underline their power to carry on the dynasty and now THAT is something awful).

See?? There ya go Nate.

 

[passer_by]

So you are claiming that Western Culture standard of modest dress is immoral.

Of course. I am specifically referring to the standard that is followed in the past 20 years or so. I would have thought you knew this.

Can you point out to me in which official Catholic source this is stated? Did any recent pope even specifically say that Western Culture standard of modesty is immodest? Or is it just your opinion?

Actually, the entire western culture has been condemned repeatedly by the Popes. If you have not heard the term, they refer to it as the “Culture of Death”. Many misunderstand that the Pope is referring merely to Abortion here. But if one reads the works carefully, he is referring to everything in the culture promoting evil ends. So everything from the dress to norms on sexual activity in Western society has become corrupted.

And let me ask you this, how do you know that what YOU are wearing is ok?

I think the main issue here is that you might be someone who is from the second generation or higher in this culture. So naturally, you would not know how to dress other than how your parents or society taught you.

But where I am from, we still have our cultural norms preserved unlike the West that threw everything away with the Sexual revolution in the 40’s. Thanks to the West, its getting deteriorated pretty quickly though. That is a different issue for another time.

Going back to your question, I know how to dress, or every women in my culture know how to dress because of the cultural norms handed down to us by our parents and to them by their grandparents. So it comes easily for us when picking a dress.

Unfortunately for you, you will have to re-invent the wheel or go back and study the pre-1940’s western world to realize what is appropriate and what is not.

A good plumb line will be, if you are a woman, what part of your body incites sexual attraction? There are very scientific answers to this. Then make sure you dress in a way that covers these areas and do not emphasize their form.

Hope that helps.