The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

[passer_by]

The bikini does not display those regions. The top is covered up, and so is the bottom front and the bottom back.

Oh I see. Perhaps I thought wrong in assuming you were aware of what regions of the body are known to cause sexual feelings.

It is not merely the genitalia. I could go in to more detail but then this would turn this thread in to a sexology class. I encourage you to read and understand some of the texts on this subject of which parts are sexually stimulating or causes curiosity to the opposite sex. This might even bring you to a self-understanding of the plight of your culture as well.

Sometimes the usual reason for disagreement on these issues is that one party lacks some knowledge. I think we have discovered that very piece of knowledge hat has caused us to stumble in the dark in addressing each other.

But I hope after gaining some scientific understanding on sexuality, everything will be clearer to you.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

Unless someone has irrevocably made it known – and/or you are in a “red light” area – a “strip” place, viewing “certain type” of mags – porn – we cannot at make an assumption that someone is “inviting/fishing” lust/sin.

You’re accusing me of making assumptions but you’re confusing absence of proof with absence of fact, it seems. If someone is sexying it up it really doesn’t need a sworn affidavit from that point to conclude that sexual attention is being sought.

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Unless the person has made it clear that that is their intentions— the mode of dress is not sufficient-- to “conclude” – that sexual attention is being sought.

 

[chevalier]

It isn’t the clothing, or the body itself that is bad… it is the people’s reactions

I completely agree with you but I would add that it is wrong to invoke those bad reactions on purpose or recklessly or play with them. This is the difficult part with some women. They get the idea that there’s nothing wrong with the body (correct) and that men’s lustful gazes are wrong (correct) but they fail to see that eliciting those gazes for an ego boost is wrong too, as is being reckless about the possibility.

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Unless the person has made it clear that that is their intentions— the mode of dress is not sufficient-- to “conclude” – that sexual attention is being sought.

Certain types of clothes are patently about sexual attention, as in there’d be no reason to wear them otherwise (save lack of other clothes). However, you are right that generally clothing itself (as in statically, without considering the behaviour) is not sufficient to make a reliable conclusion.

 

[passer_by]

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Unless the person has made it clear that that is their intentions— the mode of dress is not sufficient-- to “conclude” – that sexual attention is being sought.

It’s like saying when a person behaves inappropriately at a dinner party, it doesn’t mean they aren’t bad people. Of course it might be true, but it does mean that the person was not taught proper manners or lacks discipline.

So what you say is very true, but, it does show that the specific woman has not properly taught by her parents and is now leading others to sin as a result.

 

[Walking_Home]

That is correct so far as the man was responsible for the act of lustful thoughts. Obviously the sin that the immodestly dressed woman committed was not a sin lust.** It was a sin of leading others to sin. **

A trivial matter when one understands properly what is taught.

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Again – we cannot transfer the blame and make another the cause of our sin. That is what you are doing – when you say – the woman “lead” others to sin. To be responsible for our sin – is to point to ourselves and only ourselves.

 

[Debora123]

Oh I see. Perhaps I thought wrong in assuming you were aware of what regions of the body are known to cause sexual feelings.

It is not merely the genitalia. I could go in to more detail but then this would turn this thread in to a sexology class. I encourage you to read and understand some of the texts on this subject which might bring you to a greater understanding of the plight of your culture as well.

I would really appreciate it if you did not insult my culture.

ANY region of the body can cause sexual feelings. It really depends on each individual. There are plenty of people out there with foot fetishes, who would lust after catching a glimpse of open toe sandals.

But there are the designated, sexual parts - the private parts. Those are covered up. And when you are in some place such as a beach, there is nothing immodest about wearing a bikini. I go to the beach, and I don’t see a bunch of men sitting around, covering up their front, lusting after women, etc etc. That’s not how it is. It is not a sexual thing. Trust me, I grew up in it.

Also, If you think my city has so much to learn about modesty and decency, and is in such plight in that regard, then I wonder why JPII didn’t as much as mention any of that when he came to visit in 1997 and gave a talk atop the Christ the Redeemer Mountain? Hmm.

 

[Walking_Home]

It’s like saying when a person behaves inappropriately at a dinner party, it doesn’t mean they aren’t bad people. Of course it might be true, but it does mean that the person was not taught proper manners or lacks discipline.

So what you say is very true, but, it does show that the specific woman has not properly taught by her parents and is now leading others to sin as a result.

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It is much, much easier – to point to the finger at someone else --isn’t it.

 

[Debora123]

Sometimes the usual reason for disagreement on these issues is that one party lacks some knowledge. I think we have discovered that very piece of knowledge hat has caused us to stumble in the dark in addressing each other.

Yes, and I hope you see that as an outsider, you really have no way of looking in and stating that a culture you have never traveled to and have no knowledge of has an issue with modesty.

But I hope after gaining some scientific understanding on sexuality, everything will be clearer to you.

Oh please don’t insult me.

 

[Debora123]

I completely agree with you

Yes…

but

…oooofff course.

I would add that it is wrong to invoke those bad reactions on purpose or recklessly or play with them. This is the difficult part with some women. They get the idea that there’s nothing wrong with the body (correct) and that men’s lustful gazes are wrong (correct) but they fail to see that eliciting those gazes for an ego boost is wrong too, as is being reckless about the possibility.

You have been on this thread with me long enough to know that I’ve been over this and understand it. We’ve been over it together.

You’re starting to do the same thing you were doing earlier, and as I said, it is very difficult to have a discussion when certain members are being biased and purposely argumentative with one particular side.

 

[passer_by]

I would really appreciate it if you did not insult my culture.

If a culture is corrupt, whether it be mine or yours, I will state it as such. It is not meant as an insult but as the truth.

ANY region of the body can cause sexual feelings.

You must have read some Scientific work that I am unaware of.

It really depends on each individual. There are plenty of people out there with foot fetishes, who would lust after catching a glimpse of open toe sandals.

Which is obviously individuals with a psychological problem. Their state is disordered so these are obviously not the people we are talking about here.

But there are the designated, sexual parts - the private parts.

The term is genitalia. And no, the gentialia are not the only parts that cause sexual arousal in the opposite sex.

Those are covered up. And when you are in some place such as a beach, there is nothing immodest about wearing a bikini. I go to the beach, and I don’t see a bunch of men sitting around, covering up their front, lusting after women, etc etc. That’s not how it is. It is not a sexual thing. Trust me, I grew up in it.

There might be a woman who grew up in a brothel. For that woman, prostitution might seem very normal. So you asking me to trust you because after growing up in it, it seems normal is not a rational argument.

Also, If you think my city has so much to learn about modesty and decency, and is in such plight in that regard, then I wonder why JPII didn’t as much as mention any of that when he came to visit in 1997 and gave a talk atop the Christ the Redeemer Mountain? Hmm.

Well JP II didn’t mention a lot of things when he came to Brazil. Does that mean all of that stuff is OK in Brazil? For an example, the drug trafficking, the corrupt leadership around the favela’s were all skipped over.

So asking to measure right and wrong about Brazil from what JP II saw in his trip in 1997 is not a rational argument from you as well.

 

[passer_by]

Yes, and I hope you see that as an outsider, you really have no way of looking in and stating that a culture you have never traveled to and have no knowledge of has an issue with modesty.

Actually as an outsider, I have a much better view of your culture in an objective sense given the facts. So I think that my judgement of your culture will be more accurate than the one you make.

Oh please don’t insult me.

I was not insulting. I am merely pointing out what you were missing. Is it normal for you to take it as an insult when someone points out that you are missing some part of knowledge?

 

[passer_by]

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Again – we cannot transfer the blame and make another the cause of our sin. That is what you are doing – when you say – the woman “lead” others to sin. To be responsible for our sin – is to point to ourselves and only ourselves.

Ok let me try to state it slowly.

1. Man who commits a lustful act is totally responsible for his lustful act
2. But the woman who dressed provocatively is totally responsible for leading others to sin

So as you can see above, there is no transfer of responsibility or sin. They both commit two different sins for which both of them are the sole people responsible for them.

 

[passer_by]

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It is much, much easier – to point to the finger at someone else --isn’t it.

Oh no no. I am merely pointing fingers at both.

Somehow on this thread, you seem to be eager to point the finger at one party or another. I am merely trying to get you to lift two fingers up rather than one

 

[Debora123]

If a culture is corrupt, whether it be mine or yours, I will state it as such. It is not meant as an insult but as the truth.

You must have read some Scientific work that I am unaware of.

Which is obviously individuals with a psychological problem. Their state is disordered so these are obviously not the people we are talking about here.

The term is genitalia. And no, the gentialia are not the only parts that cause sexual arousal in the opposite sex.

There might be a woman who grew up in a brothel. For that woman, prostitution might seem very normal. So you asking me to trust you because after growing up in it, it seems normal is not a rational argument.

Well JP II didn’t mention a lot of things when he came to Brazil. Does that mean all of that stuff is OK in Brazil? For an example, the drug trafficking, the corrupt leadership around the favela’s were all skipped over.

So asking to measure right and wrong about Brazil from what JP II saw in his trip in 1997 is not a rational argument from you as well.

You will always have your negative opinions on the way I dress and on my culture’s standard of dress. It really does nothing to me except frustrate me for a while until I can shrug it off because in my heart I know I’m not doing anything unacceptable or against Church teaching in that regards.

 

[Debora123]

Actually as an outsider, I have a much better view of your culture in an objective sense given the facts. So I think that my judgement of your culture will be more accurate than the one you make.

I disagree 100%, but have acknowledged that you are not someone I can particularly discuss these types of things with, given the know it all attitude being asserted.

I was not insulting. I am merely pointing out what you were missing. Is it normal for you to take it as an insult when someone points out that you are missing some part of knowledge?

I am not missing anything and am doing perfectly fine, thank you. I’ve had many male friends my whole life, have always been respected by men, and have married the most pure hearted man I’ve ever known - and quite possibly the MOST pure hearted man on earth!

I understand morality, and no offense, but no stranger online is going to make me think I’m “missing something.”

 

[passer_by]

You will always have your negative opinions on the way I dress and on my culture’s standard of dress. It really does nothing to me except frustrate me for a while until I can shrug it off because in my heart I know I’m not doing anything unacceptable or against Church teaching in that regards.

Ignorance can be bliss.

As I said before, I think all you need to do is do some scientific reading on sexuality and better understand what is sexually arousing (to the normal human being and not the sociopath or disordered of course).

You are 50% there in realizing that the Church wants you to dress modestly and if you dress by exposing body parts that are sexually arousing, then it is a sin. The other 50% that is missing now is the knowledge on which parts are sexually arousing. So with time, I think you will come to understand those things and be much closer to Christ in the way you dress.

 

[Debora123]

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Unless someone has irrevocably made it known – and/or you are in a “red light” area – a “strip” place, viewing “certain type” of mags – porn – we cannot at make an assumption that someone is “inviting/fishing” lust/sin.

Very true. We are called to do our part, and our part is to always assume the best of others and to treat them with dignity and respect, regardless of outward appearances.

 

[passer_by]

I disagree 100%, but have acknowledged that you are not someone I can particularly discuss these types of things with, given the know it all attitude being asserted.

What I know, I simply state as I know. What I don’t know, I would say as well.

I am not missing anything and am doing perfectly fine, thank you. I’ve had many male friends my whole life, have always been respected by men, and have married the most pure hearted man I’ve ever known - and quite possibly the MOST pure hearted man on earth!

Congratulations on your marriage and for being blessed with a good spouse!

But as I said before, marriage doesn’t get rid of ignorance or fill the missing knowledge. So there is no way around it but to study the subject.

I understand morality, and no offense, but no stranger online is going to make me think I’m “missing something.”

I never said you misunderstood morality. I was merely saying that you lacked knowledge on the scientific understanding of something that is essential for the moral practice you know about. You are trying pretty hard to put yourself down here using things I never said.

 

[passer_by]

Very true. We are called to do our part, and our part is to always assume the best of others and to treat them with dignity and respect, regardless of outward appearances.

and if I may add, not be a stumbling block!

Rom. 14:13,21

Let us therefore no longer pass judgement on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling-block or hindrance in the way of another. It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother or sister stumble.

 

[Debora123]

Ignorance can be bliss.

Honey, I’m not ignorant.

As I said before, I think all you need to do is do some scientific reading on sexuality and better understand what is sexually arousing (to the normal human being and not the sociopath or disordered of course).

Funny thing. Having been a nursing major, I actually have taken an entire course on Human Sexuality. And I did pass with a B+, if I remember correctly.

You are 50% there in realizing that the Church wants you to dress modestly and if you dress by exposing body parts that are sexually arousing, then it is a sin. The other 50% that is missing now is the knowledge on which parts are sexually arousing. So with time, I think you will come to understand those things and be much closer to Christ in the way you dress.

I do dress modestly.