The Death of Pretty (an article on how many women want to be seen now)

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Unless you dress like the Amish or live in cold weather year round, few clothes are going to cover up every single part that can be sexually arousing to a man.

Bikinis cover the private, more arousing parts, and I’ve been saying that consistently.

I never said, as you claim “genitalia is the only part of the female body that arouses a man.”
Let me try to make you understand what you wrote in your own words:-

I said:
“Normal” is not defined as what is acceptable by majority. If one displays regions of their body that incite sexual feelings and curiosity like a Bikini does, it is not “Normal” in the philosophical sense of the word."
You said:
The bikini does not display those regions. The top is covered up, and so is the bottom front and the bottom back. 👍
So you are essentially saying the Bikini does not display those regions, hence the only regions sexually arousing must be the ones the Bikini covers.

Now I do not appreciate dishonesty. From what is clear above, you are being very dishonest.
 
Let me try to make you understand what you wrote in your own words:-

I said:

You said:

So you are essentially saying the Bikini does not display those regions, hence the only regions sexually arousing must be the ones the Bikini covers.

Now I do not appreciate dishonesty. From what is clear above, you are being very dishonest.
If you think I was LYING go ahead. Think all you want. I further explained myself in more detail and more correctly once you jumped to a false conclusion, I thought you were referring to sexual parts, as in sexual organs. If you were really that confused by it, it would have been best if you had asked me to clarify immediately, rather than taking one response in which I mention that private parts are covered, and somehow assuming that I truly believe men can’t be aroused from looking at a women’s legs, or face, or shoulders.
 
If you think I was LYING go ahead. Think all you want. I further explained myself in more detail and more correctly once you jumped to a false conclusion, I thought you were referring to sexual parts, as in sexual organs. If you were really that confused by it, it would have been best if you had asked me to clarify immediately, rather than taking one response in which I mention that private parts are covered, and somehow assuming that I truly believe men can’t be aroused from looking at a women’s legs, or face, or shoulders.
LOL Debora, you and Severus are always smack in the middle of these modesty threads.
 
If you think I was LYING go ahead. Think all you want. I further explained myself in more detail and more correctly once you jumped to a false conclusion, I thought you were referring to sexual parts, as in sexual organs. If you were really that confused by it, it would have been best if you had asked me to clarify immediately, rather than taking one response in which I mention that private parts are covered, and somehow assuming that I truly believe men can’t be aroused from looking at a women’s legs, or face, or shoulders.
That makes no sense.

A Bikini does not even cover the regions you claim to be sexually arousing now like legs etc.

Yet when I said Bikini didn’t cover the areas that cause sexual arousal, your reply was THAT IT DID.

So either you lied then to make a point which caused the confusion in the first place, or you DID believe that to be true and are lying now to make it look like you always believed differently.

Either case, yes, its clear to me, and anyone else who may read this thread that you are not being honest in this conversation. Whats worse is you are being dishonest and trying to make me look like an idiot.

I don’t like talking to dishonest people so I don’t want to continue this discussion with you anymore.

Anyone interested for evidence, please refer to the following post

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8794932&postcount=516
 
That makes no sense.

A Bikini does not even cover the regions you claim to be sexually arousing now like legs etc.
I know they don’t. But I also think A LOT of areas can be arousing. Including the face… and heck, the whole figure even!
Yet when I said Bikini didn’t cover the areas that cause sexual arousal, your reply was THAT IT DID.
…It was ONE response, passer-by, since no clothes short of a burka can actually cover up every area that can arouse a guy, I assumed you were referring to the more important, more intense, more “fail proof” areas… such as the genitals, buttocks, and breasts. Once you started to assume that I thought the ONLY thing that could arouse a man was the genitals, I immediately told you that I do not. And I did so multiple times, but for some reason you are still super hung up on it.
So either you lied then to make a point which caused the confusion in the first place, or you DID believe that to be true and are lying now to make it look like you always believed differently.
Either case, yes, its clear to me, and anyone else who may read this thread that you are not being honest in this conversation. Whats worse is you are being dishonest and trying to make me look like an idiot.
If you want to think I deliberately LIED, then go ahead. I explained to you the confusion and what I meant. If you don’t believe me, then, well… so be it. I really don’t care.

As for ME making YOU look like an idiot… well, with all due respect, you immediately started calling me ignorant and insulted my common sense and knowledge. If I have made you feel like an idiot, then I am sincerely sorry, but I find it ironic that YOU are accusing ME of that.
I don’t like talking to dishonest people so I don’t want to continue this discussion with you anymore.
Surprisingly enough, I am perfectly fine with that! 👍
 
LOL Debora, you and Severus are always smack in the middle of these modesty threads.
Anyone else see the irony in someone claiming that people can be bare yet modest has a picture of a skimpily dressed person next to their name in a jillion page long debate about what is and what is not modest?
 

Again --women do not “make” men lust —men do that on their own. She can be responsible for her own actions --when she engages in acts of her own – like prostitution – porn – stripping/pole/lap dances – having her picture taken for purposes of men’s magazines. Even then --we are not privy as to her judgement from God.
OK, so explain this. How exactly is a woman - or man - consciously choosing to wear clothing that shows a massive amount of flesh not an ‘act’ that the woman or man who does it ‘engages in’ - and so is ‘responsible’ for? I don’t mean with the intent to make people lust, I simply mean the intent to wear clothing that shows a huge amount of flesh.

Do a person’s clothes fall onto them out of the sky and then stick peramently to their skin such that they cannot be removed or changed?

Does someone hold a gun to a man’s or woman’s head and say ‘put on the skimpy revealing outfit or else’?

Of course not. So the choice to wear a certain type of clothing (and it is always a choice) IS an act that a person engages in and that they are responsible for. That’s WHY the church exhorts us all to dress modestly at all times!

As for a man or woman being judged by God for their choice of clothing - well, we aren’t privy to what God will say to them, no. Neither are we privy to whether Hitler or Stalin are in hell or heaven (after all, they might’ve been severely mentally ill or had a last-minute repentance prior to their deaths or whatnot).

But I’m not going to turn around and say ‘y’know what? It’s fine for people to behave the way Hitler and Stalin did, I’m going to leave Joe Blow down the street alone if he does start behaving like that, after all, he probably doesn’t INTEND to cause all the damage he will inflict’.

No, because we are told that it is an act of mercy (and hence our duty) to counsel the ignorant, admonish the sinner, and otherwise help anyone who needs it (and if Joe Blow is contemplating mass murder a la Hitler or Stalin then he needs either counsel, admonishment or other help, and fast!)

So frankly, I don’t give two hoots whether that very skimpily clad woman intends to entice men to lust, I will inform her that that is exactly what she is doing. And in some cases there can be absolutely no doubt.

If she ignores my counsel, has no other pressing reason behind her skimpy dress, and continues to dress skimpily, then she is INDEED responsible for her act of dressing in this way, and is guilty of the sin of gross immodesty, since she cannot now plead ignorance or lack of mental consent.
 
Anyone else see the irony in someone claiming that people can be bare yet modest has a picture of a skimpily dressed person next to their name in a jillion page long debate about what is and what is not modest?
Thank you, Castello. How very charitable of you. 👍

That “skimpily dressed person” next to my name is me, though I’m sure you know that. This picture was taken with my husband at our University’s Catholic Student Association’s dance party. We set it up to be a fundraiser for a charity in Africa.

My husband thought my dress was lovely and that I looked lovely in it. I’m sorry you think it’s “skimpy” (though I’m surprised, since the picture is a head shot and you can’t even see it).

But as I’ve been saying all along, you can’t please everyone. 😛
 
I am grateful that adult women are no longer forced to concern themselves with other peoples’ preferences when making decisions about what clothes to wear or not wear, or what makeup to apply or not apply.

I am even more grateful to live in a time when we understand that girls and women are not objects to be consumed or defended, despite what the author of The Death of Pretty suggests. He wants to make women commodities the same way he asserts feminism did, albeit commodities beyond the direct control of men.

Moreover, “innocence” is an affect projected by people with little to no power or autonomy. By lamenting the fact the women no longer look “innocent,” I think the author wishes for a time when women had diminished roles in society and were seen as childlike and harmless rather than powerful. I mean, who would describe Wangari Maathai, Indira Gandhi, Yingluck Shinawatra, Meg Whitman, or any other female leader, as “innocent?”

Luna
While your reasons for female liberty may seem sound, it’s the sentiments behind the logic which have caused the downfall of female emancipation, and consequently, a lament in the author’s article.

A woman’s right to choose is one thing, a woman’s right to choose according to the common good is another. Considering all the short shorts, low cut tops, and generally skimpy clothing women are seen wearing these days in an effort to out-do one another in the sensuality department, I highly doubt women are choosing the latter.

“So what?” some say, “You should wear whatever you damn well please”.

Well, strictly speaking, as Catholics, we shouldn’t. One of the greatest acts of love we can do for our fellow human beings is not giving them an occasion to sin. When a woman dons her barely-there attire, men can’t help but notice. They don’t see her as a woman (as much as she thinks her clothing does), all they see are her womanly bits. This can, and usually does, lead to mortal sin. Imagine that. A woman, who wants to look sexy, causes a stranger to lust over her, and in a state of mortal sin, should he die, he goes to Hell. While it’s his own grievous fault, it was also due to the imprudence of the woman that he didn’t go to Heaven.

If only women knew how much we didn’t want to see them as objects of lust, and yet they keep doing it under the thin veil of female liberation.
 
OK, so explain this. How exactly is a woman - or man - consciously choosing to wear clothing that shows a massive amount of flesh not an ‘act’ that the woman or man who does it ‘engages in’ - and so is ‘responsible’ for? I don’t mean with the intent to make people lust, I simply mean the intent to wear clothing that shows a huge amount of flesh.

Do a person’s clothes fall onto them out of the sky and then stick peramently to their skin such that they cannot be removed or changed?

Does someone hold a gun to a man’s or woman’s head and say ‘put on the skimpy revealing outfit or else’?

Of course not. So the choice to wear a certain type of clothing (and it is always a choice) IS an act that a person engages in and that they are responsible for. That’s WHY the church exhorts us all to dress modestly at all times!

As for a man or woman being judged by God for their choice of clothing - well, we aren’t privy to what God will say to them, no. Neither are we privy to whether Hitler or Stalin are in hell or heaven (after all, they might’ve been severely mentally ill or had a last-minute repentance prior to their deaths or whatnot).

But I’m not going to turn around and say ‘y’know what? It’s fine for people to behave the way Hitler and Stalin did, I’m going to leave Joe Blow down the street alone if he does start behaving like that, after all, he probably doesn’t INTEND to cause all the damage he will inflict’.

No, because we are told that it is an act of mercy (and hence our duty) to counsel the ignorant, admonish the sinner, and otherwise help anyone who needs it (and if Joe Blow is contemplating mass murder a la Hitler or Stalin then he needs either counsel, admonishment or other help, and fast!)

So frankly, I don’t give two hoots whether that very skimpily clad woman intends to entice men to lust, I will inform her that that is exactly what she is doing. And in some cases there can be absolutely no doubt.

If she ignores my counsel, has no other pressing reason behind her skimpy dress, and continues to dress skimpily, then she is INDEED responsible for her act of dressing in this way, and is guilty of the sin of gross immodesty, since she cannot now plead ignorance or lack of mental consent.

It is what is present in a person’s mind – that causes one to lust. Lust comes from the inside. It is not the exposed flesh-- but how people have been “taught” to view that exposed flesh. Every time someone says – “look at the “immodest” person” and/or makes any type of derogatory description of a person for the clothes worn—they teaching to internalize a negative image of a human being – that can be expressed via lust.
 

It is what is present in a person’s mind – that causes one to lust. Lust comes from the inside. It is not the exposed flesh-- but how people have been “taught” to view that exposed flesh. Every time someone says – “look at the “immodest” person” and/or makes any type of derogatory description of a person for the clothes worn—they teaching to internalize a negative image of a human being – that can be expressed via lust.
Very true.
 

It is what is present in a person’s mind – that causes one to lust. Lust comes from the inside. It is not the exposed flesh-- but how people have been “taught” to view that exposed flesh. Every time someone says – “look at the “immodest” person” and/or makes any type of derogatory description of a person for the clothes worn—they teaching to internalize a negative image of a human being – that can be expressed via lust.
For some reason today, I saw three girls at three different times, with “pum pum” shorts on. For those of you who don’t know what those are, they are really tight, extremely short, shorts that look like boy shorts underwear. They wore them with heels.

It was nice outside today, but not that nice.

I’m pretty certain those young women knew very well that by wearing those shorts, they would be getting lots of attention from men.

Whaddya gonna do? 🤷
 
Thank you, Castello. How very charitable of you. 👍

That “skimpily dressed person” next to my name is me, though I’m sure you know that. This picture was taken with my husband at our University’s Catholic Student Association’s dance party. We set it up to be a fundraiser for a charity in Africa.

My husband thought my dress was lovely and that I looked lovely in it. I’m sorry you think it’s “skimpy” (though I’m surprised, since the picture is a head shot and you can’t even see it).

**But as I’ve been saying all along, you can’t please everyone. ** 😛

Yep.
 
For some reason today, I saw three girls at three different times, with “pum pum” shorts on. For those of you who don’t know what those are, they are really tight, extremely short, shorts that look like boy shorts underwear. They wore them with heels.

It was nice outside today, but not that nice.

I’m pretty certain those young women knew very well that by wearing those shorts, they would be getting lots of attention from men.

Whaddya gonna do? 🤷
I don’t think it’s necessarily “wrong” to want attention from the opposite gender. Young people, when single, WANT to look attractive to the opposite sex - it’s in the human nature, and it’s not a bad thing.

Now, there is a huge difference between wanting a boy to look at you and think you are attractive, and wanting a boy to start lusting. Remember. The 2 are 2 very different things.

Did the girls wear the shorts with heals specifically because they wanted men to lust after them and see them as nothing more than an object?

Or did they wear the shorts with heals because they thought it looked good, fashionable, and made them look attractive to the men?

We will never know. It is best not to jump to conclusions and make any rash assumptions. Our part is to remember to treat them as the human beings they are, regardless of what they are wearing and why they are wearing it. Do you not agree?
 
For some reason today, I saw three girls at three different times, with “pum pum” shorts on. For those of you who don’t know what those are, they are really tight, extremely short, shorts that look like boy shorts underwear. They wore them with heels.

It was nice outside today, but not that nice.

I’m pretty certain those young women knew very well that by wearing those shorts, they would be getting lots of attention from men.

Whaddya gonna do? 🤷

Whaddya gonna do? We start teaching – not to view another – with the mind of darkness. So even when – encountering girls/women like those you saw – lust would be less likely to immerge from the heart and mind.
 
Oh I see. Perhaps I thought wrong in assuming you were aware of what regions of the body are known to cause sexual feelings.

It is not merely the genitalia. I could go in to more detail but then this would turn this thread in to a sexology class. I encourage you to read and understand some of the texts on this subject of which parts are sexually stimulating or causes curiosity to the opposite sex. This might even bring you to a self-understanding of the plight of your culture as well.

Sometimes the usual reason for disagreement on these issues is that one party lacks some knowledge. I think we have discovered that very piece of knowledge hat has caused us to stumble in the dark in addressing each other.

But I hope after gaining some scientific understanding on sexuality, everything will be clearer to you.
Some people find toes sexually inviting and thus some find toe cleavage provocative and not acceptable. I could go on. If something is not obviously obcene, why would you want others to read up and ‘learn’ about how it could incite lust?
 

Whaddya gonna do? We start teaching – not to view another – with the mind of darkness. So even when – encountering girls/women like those you saw – lust would be less likely to immerge from the heart and mind.
Agreed.
 
Anyone else see the irony in someone claiming that people can be bare yet modest has a picture of a skimpily dressed person next to their name in a jillion page long debate about what is and what is not modest?
Have the guts to name the person who are referring to, why dont you?
 
Have the guts to name the person who are referring to, why dont you?
Perhaps the poster thought I didn’t deserve to be referred to by a human name?? 🤷

Wearing a spaghetti strapped dress to a dance party apparently doesn’t make a person worthy of a name around here.
 
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