The Death Penalty from a different angle

  • Thread starter Thread starter littlechicken
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, if you carry it out to the logical end, anyone convicted of a crime that they receive a prison sentence for should be executed, in the name of “officer safety.” Is that what you’re thinking?
No, that doesn’t follow. Most people have an incentive not to attack an officer, because there would be worse consequences for them. Also, to execute someone for a crime less than murder would be intrinsically evil, so not an option even if there were pragmatic reasons for it.

The argument I find somewhat persuasive is that if a person has already been sentenced to life in prison for murder, and essentially has nothing more to lose except his life, then the death penalty would be an appropriate consequence if he committed a further murder while in prison (or if he escaped and committed murder while on the loose). I think that makes sense, and if these were the only crimes for which the death penalty was imposed, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

Edwin
 
Of course not. The point I am making is that this section of the Catechism, being opinion, is not binding. We may believe what our own experience and investigation tells us is likely to be true. That is, there is no moral objection to employing capital punishment, only practical ones.

Ender
But what is in Encyclicals is binding, and that section is in an Encyclical. Hence, it is binding. At least that’s how I see it. 🤷

But no, in principle there is no moral objection to the death penalty.
 
What is the likelihood that a prisoner will kill a prison guard compared to the likelihood of homicide in the general population? I don’t know the answer to that but I’m just pointing out a possible statistical fallacy.

We don’t establish laws based on the highly unlikely We make speeding illegal even though you may be speeding to get to the hospital. It’s conceivable that some convict maybe so dangerous as to warrant the death penalty but because of him, we’re going to make the death penalty the general rule?

As for the morality itself, I personally have a hard time objecting to capital punishment especially after reading about gruesome murders. And I realize that it’s a matter of prudential judgment, not intrinsic evil. However, it’s the near universal, if not completely universal, judgment of the bishops that as applied to the US, capital punishment is immoral. Not merely is it unwise but the circumstances do not allow it to be used morally. This rises far above mere “opinion.” This is properly Church teaching. This isn’t even like an economic matter where I think I may have a better understanding than the bishops. The bishops know at least as much about capital punishment as I do and probably a lot more. There’s nothing I can say in support of capital punishment that the bishops haven’t already considered and rejected. It’s important to me that Catholics speak with one voice on moral issues. Therefore, at the very least, I do not actively speak or work against the bishops or undermine them in anyway.
 
There’s nothing I can say in support of capital punishment that the bishops haven’t already considered and rejected.
You are in error.

The Bishops have simply accepted anti death penalty claims, without fact checking them, a very bad example for their flock and for the truth. That has been the Bishops MO for decades.

In addition, It is as if the Church didn’t consider that executed murderers cannot harm, again, but that livings murderers can and do.

Why has the Church chosen to depend upon widely varying and error prone incarceration systems, when the reality is that so many innocents are caused further suffering by known unjust aggressors, because of the failings in those systems?

It appears the Catechism’s (& EV) authors never considered the reality of such sufferring. (3&4)

And why has the Church done this when it commands “Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm.” ? 2265

Here are the known realities of all unjust aggressors, murderers and other violent offenders. They can morally/criminally/spiritually:
(a) improve, which can mean everything in a spectrum from still quite bad to sainthood;
(b) stay the same, a bad result for them and others; or
(c) become worse, a more severe, negative outcome which puts the unjust aggressor and all others even more at risk.

The only way to, humanly, make a criminal “unable to inflict harm” is to execute them.

Rationally, factually, there is no other way.

The Church has reversed its longstanding emphasis on protecting innocents. This Catechism, to the contrary, has decided to give much more deference to guilty murderers than it has to protecting the innocent or defending society.

There are at least four Church recognized foundations for criminal sanction; 1) defense of society against the criminal; 2) rehabilitation of the criminal; 3) retribution or the reparation of the disorder caused by the transgression and 4) deterrence.

There is a 5th, biblical instruction, theology, tradition and reason which must guide the 4 others. They aren’t mentioned, because they are a constant.

All of those foundations are better met with the death penalty than by lesser sanctions.

The complaint that this Catechism has removed just retribution (and therefore, balance, redress, correction, etc.) from punishment is based upon the reality that 2267 has allowed an improper and inaccurate evaluation of secular penal standards to dominate over both just retribution or “The primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense” (2266) and Genesis 9:6.

While the first sections of this chapter (through 2266) detail the importance of retribution, as reviewed, above, the later section (2267) provides little time for justice, which must dominate the utilitarian aspect of protection. The Church miscalculates in 2267 and fails to realize the rational reality that innocents are more protected when murderers are executed, even though the Church enforces that reality within 2265.

“While punishment does serve the purpose of protecting society, it also and “primarily” serves the function of manifesting the transcendent, divine order of justice–an order which the state executes by divine delegation.” " . . . it may be argued that such a conception of punishment, rooted in the restoration of moral balance, always presupposes an awareness of the superordinate dignity of the common good as defined by transcendent moral truths." (5)

“Yet the presence of two purposes–retributive and medicinal justice–ought not obscure the priority of assigning punishment proportionate to the crime (just retribution) insofar as the limited jurisdiction of human justice allows. The end is not punishment, but rather the manifestation of a divine norm of retributive justice, which entails proportionate equality vis-à-vis the crime.” “The medicinal goal is not tantamount merely to stopping future evildoing, but rather entails manifesting the truth of the divine order of justice both to the criminal and to society at large. This means that mere stopping of further disorder is insufficient to constitute the full medicinal character of justice, which purpose alike and primarily entails the manifestation of the truth. Thus this foundational sense of the medicinality of penalty is retained even when others drop away.” (6)

Justice is the soul of sanction. All other results - protection, safety and deterrence - although beneficial and desired, are a result of sanction, not the reasons for it.
Rehabilitation/redress/correction/redemption/expiation have a foundation in just retribution, but depend upon the free will choice of the criminal who we hope will, by grace, avail themselves of those choices.

“The Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent” (1566)

“The just use of this power (execution), far from involving the crime of murder, is AN ACT OF PARAMOUNT OBEDINCE” (my emphasis) to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord."

We have another obvious conflict between two standards:(a) “PARAMOUNT OBEDIENCE” to God (Trent, 1566) vs man’s accomplishments within the error prone criminal justice system (2267, Catechism, amended 2005).
  1. Pope John Paul II: Prudential Judgement and the death penalty
    homicidesurvivors.com/2007/07/23/pope-john-paul-ii-his-death-penalty-errors.aspx
contd
 
contd
  1. a) “Prisons and the Education of Terrorists”, Ian M. Cuthbertson, WORLD POLICY JOURNAL, FALL 2004
“The use of prisons as a means of recruiting new members into terrorist organizations while providing advanced training to existing members is hardly a new phenomenon. FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS (my emphasis) , European countries have been beset by a variety of nationalist and leftist terrorist groups, some of them highly sophisticated organizations with large rosters of combat and support personnel.”

" . . . terrorist groups were able to retain a large degree of cohesion within the prison setting, which they discovered to be a favorable environment for training members in new skills and planning future operations."

“Al-Qaeda and its network of associated organizations has taken full advantage of the relatively lax practices in European, and even some American, prisons. The pool of potential recruits is vast.”

In 10/2003 , " . . . John Pistole, the FBI’s executive assistant director of counterterrorism/counterintelligence, called U.S. correctional institutions a “viable venue for radicalization and recruitment” for al-Qaeda. Harley Lappin, the director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, sees the bloated prison population of disgruntled and violent inmates as being ‘particularly vulnerable to recruitment by terrorists.’ "

b) “Hell in the heart of paradise”
“The Bali bombers were allowed to preach to the prison population, radicalising scores of impressionable young Muslims, as well as fund and organise subsequent attacks from their cells.”
4:40PM Monday November 23, 2009 Source: AAP , tvnz.co.nz/travel-news/hell-i…radise-3174543

c) Anwar al Awlaki, a spiritual leader at two mosques where three 9/11 hijackers worshipped, a native-born U.S. citizen who left the United States in 2002, was arrested in 2006 with a small group of suspected al-Qaida militants in the capital San’a. He was released more than a year later after signing a pledge he will not break the law or leave the country. He is now missing and encourages violence against Americans from his website, Awlaki used his site to declare support for the Somali terrorist group, al-Shabaab and celebrated the acts of US Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, who murdered 13 and wounding 29 in a shooting spree. al Awlaki called upon other Muslim’s to duplicate those acts. “Radical imam praises alleged Fort Hood shooter”, Associated Press, 11/9/09, 6:19 pm ET news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091109/…t_hood_muslims

UPDATE: “New Evidence Suggests Radical Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Was an Overlooked Key Player in 9/11 Plot”, foxnews.com/politics/2011…key-player-11/

UPDATE: al-Awlaki killed in a CIA drone strike - nor more a living threat.

d) " . . . Today’s prison inmates are willing to pay up to $10,000 for a smartphone that can allow them to run a drug ring, stalk their prey—and maybe even escape."

" . . . Parchman Mississippi State Penitentiary . . . shocked everyone when it blocked more than 216,000 texts and 600 phone calls in a (SINGLE MONTH) from within the prison walls."

In the first 9 months of 2011, California seized 11,400 cellphones from criminals behind bars.

"Smartphones Are the New Prison Contraband, Daily Beast, 10/16/11
thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/16/smartphones-in-prison-new-contraband-allows-inmates-to-make-money.htm

e) 16 al Quaeda Escape in Jailbreak in Iraq
theage.com.au/world/alqae…0924-g4no.html

f) 23 escape from Yemen prison, 13 are al Quaeda
globalsecurity.org/securi…k_in_yemen.htm

g) Governor commutes 108 year sentence: Offender later murders 4 policemen, while on bond for two child rapes
google.com/hostednews/ap/…OLEwwD9CACTHG0

h) Repeat sex offender,“cripple” serving life, overpowers guards, escapes
blog.taragana.com/law/2009/11…ongoing-17934/

i) Officials “embarrassed” by Texas death row inmate escape, Houston Chronicle, November 06, 2005
policeone.com/corrections…inmate-escape/

“. . . Thompson claimed he had an appointment with his lawyer and was taken to a meeting room. However, the visitor was not Thompson’s attorney.” “After the visitor left, Thompson removed his handcuffs and his bright orange prison jumpsuit and got out of a prisoner’s booth that should have been locked. He then left wearing a dark blue shirt, khaki pants and white tennis shoes, carrying a fake identification badge and claiming to work for the Texas Attorney General’s office.” “This was 100 percent human error; that’s the most frustrating thing about it.” “There were multiple failures.” Trial jurors and victim’s relatives were terrified.

j) the Holy See could find these types of cases every day, seemingly, forever, if she looked. It seems likely that hundreds or thousands of innocents die, everyday, because of the irresponsibility of prison systems allowing unjust aggressors to harm and murder, again, in contradiction of the curious ignorance within EV and 2267.
  1. “Evangelium Vitae, St. Thomas Aquinas and the Death Penalty”, p 519, Steven A. Long, The Thomist, 63 (1999): 511-552
 
My wife and I firmly believe that people convicted of molesting, torturing, or killing children should be swiftly executed, likewise for those who commit other serious offenses such as brutal robbery, abduction, etc.

I would rather die wrongly convicted knowing that a large quantity of threats to society are eliminated than be alive while we drag our feet and permit them to live.

Call me cruel, I don’t care.
My problem with capital punishment is that a disturbingly high percentage of those on death row are innocent. This has been borne out in states where DNA testing has been used. In order to avoid the exoneration of those who may be innocent, some states have now put a statute of limitations on how long after a conviction exculpatory evidence may be used in an appeal. I find this reprehensible. If a person sentenced to death can be shown to be innocent prior to execution, then the sentence should be commuted. Certainly, the consideration of such evidence should not be prohibited by law.
 
My problem with capital punishment is that a disturbingly high percentage of those on death row are innocent. This has been borne out in states where DNA testing has been used. In order to avoid the exoneration of those who may be innocent, some states have now put a statute of limitations on how long after a conviction exculpatory evidence may be used in an appeal.
Epan:

Reconsider these realities.

Possibly, 0.4% of those sentenced to death, Post Furman v Georgia (1972) and accepted by Gregg v Georgia (1976), may have been actually innocent. None were executed. (1)

That is 99.6% accuracy in finding the actually guilty, guilty, but also a 100% rate of releasing those actual innocents upon appeal. (1)

I am unsure if there is a more accurate sanction, based upon those considerations.

In addition, the courts are allowing more and later reviews of actual innocence claims. I am aware of no jurisdiction that has barred exculpatory evidence, if credible.

In fact, the courts have been becoming more liberal in allowing such evidence.

A famous, recent case showing this is the Troy Davis case, whereby the US Supreme Court ordered a federal hearing on actual innocnce , based upon very flimsy evidence (1) –this hearing occurred 20 years after the trial.

The reality is that actual innocents are very protected by the death penalty system and that innocents are more at risk without the death penalty (1).

It appears that the last case which may support a claim of an actually innocent is as recent as the 1930’s.

================

(1) THE DEATH PENALTY: SAVING MORE INNOCENT LIVES

Of all endeavors that put innocents at risk, is there one with a better record of sparing innocent lives than the US death penalty? Unlikely.

The Death Penalty: Saving More Innocent Lives
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2012/03/death-penalty-saving-more-innocent.html

Innocents More At Risk Without Death Penalty
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2012/03/innocents-more-at-risk-without-death.html
 
Epan:

Reconsider these realities.

Possibly, 0.4% of those sentenced to death, Post Furman v Georgia (1972) and accepted by Gregg v Georgia (1976), may have been actually innocent. None were executed. (1)

That is 99.6% accuracy in finding the actually guilty, guilty, but also a 100% rate of releasing those actual innocents upon appeal. (1)

I am unsure if there is a more accurate sanction, based upon those considerations.

In addition, the courts are allowing more and later reviews of actual innocence claims. I am aware of no jurisdiction that has barred exculpatory evidence, if credible.

In fact, the courts have been becoming more liberal in allowing such evidence.

A famous, recent case showing this is the Troy Davis case, whereby the US Supreme Court ordered a federal hearing on actual innocnce , based upon very flimsy evidence (1) –this hearing occurred 20 years after the trial.

The reality is that actual innocents are very protected by the death penalty system and that innocents are more at risk without the death penalty (1).

It appears that the last case which may support a claim of an actually innocent is as recent as the 1930’s.

================

(1) THE DEATH PENALTY: SAVING MORE INNOCENT LIVES

Of all endeavors that put innocents at risk, is there one with a better record of sparing innocent lives than the US death penalty? Unlikely.

The Death Penalty: Saving More Innocent Lives
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2012/03/death-penalty-saving-more-innocent.html

Innocents More At Risk Without Death Penalty
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2012/03/innocents-more-at-risk-without-death.html
Since about 5% of those sentenced to death are later exonerated because new witnesses or evidence comes to light, I think you need to revisit your “reality”.

James Liebman at Columbia law found that 82% of death row inmates should not have be sentenced to death.

Life imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty, and allows for correcting the error, when new evidence comes forward.

In the past 35 years, something like 130 people have been exonerated. By your 0.4% figure, that means that 32,500 people were sentenced to death during that period? That seems high to me. It would be reasonable to assume that fewer then 50% of those who are innocent actually are exonerated after conviction. That puts your number at somewhere like 65,000.
 
Since about 5% of those sentenced to death are later exonerated because new witnesses or evidence comes to light, I think you need to revisit your “reality”.

SNIP

In the past 35 years, something like 130 people have been exonerated. SNIP
Epan:

You have been fooled, as many have been, by anti death penalty deceptions.

It is the reason fact checing is a must, in this debate, as in many.

I was accurate.

I covered this in the links, which, sadly, you did not review.
  1. The 130 (now 140) death row “innocents” scam
    homicidesurvivors.com/2009/03/04/fact-checking-issues-on-innocence-and-the-death-penalty.aspx
The false innocence claims by anti death penalty activists are many, blatant and legendary

Some more examples:
  1. “The Innocent Executed: Deception & Death Penalty Opponents”
    homicidesurvivors.com/2009/10/08/the-innocent-executed-deception–death-penalty-opponents–draft.aspx
  2. “Exoneration Inflation: Justice Scalia’s Concurrence in Kansas v. March”, by Ward Campbell, Supervising Deputy Attorney General, California Department of Justice, p 49, The Journal of the Institute for the Advancement of Criminal Justice, Issue 2, Summer 2008
    cjlf.org/files/CampbellExonerationInflation2008.pdf
  3. “The innocence tactic: Unreliable studies and disinformation”, reports By United States Congress, Senate, 107th Congress, 2d Session, Calender no 731, Report 107-315. The Innocence Protection Act of 2002, (iv) The innocence tactic: Unreliable studies and disinformation, p 65-69
    alturl.com/6j7oc
  4. “The Innocent and the Shammed”, Joshua Marquis, Published in New York Times, 1/26/2006
    coastda.blogspot.com/2006/01/innocent-and-shammed-nyt-oped.html
  5. “Troy Davis & The Innocent Frauds of the anti death penalty lobby”,
    prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2011/11/troy-davis-innocent-frauds-of-anti.html
  6. “The Myth Of Innocence”, Joshua Marquis, published in the Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology - 3/31/2005, Northwestern University School of Law, Chicago, Illinois
    coastda.blogspot.com/2005/03/myth-of-innocence.html
  7. Sister Helen Prejean & the death penalty: A Critical Review"
    homicidesurvivors.com/2009/05/04/sister-helen-prejean–the-death-penalty-a-critical-review.aspx
  8. “At the Death House Door” Can Rev. Carroll Pickett be trusted?"
    homicidesurvivors.com/2009/01/30/fact-checking-is-very-welcome.aspx
  9. “Cameron Todd Willingham: Another Media Meltdown”, A Collection of Articles
    homicidesurvivors.com/categories/Cameron%20Todd%20Willingham.aspx
 
SNIP James Liebman at Columbia law found that 82% of death row inmates should not have be sentenced to death.

SNIP

Life imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty, and allows for correcting the error, when new evidence comes forward.
It really doesn’t matter what Liebman’s opinion is.

Please review some facts.

"A Broken Study: A Review of ‘A Broken System’ "
prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/10/broken-study-review-of-broken-system.html

The death penalty is not always cheaper and all states can introduce protocols which whould make the death penalty less expensive than LWOP.

I recommend, as before, that you fact check the studies. I have.

Also, as posted before, and, again, as you did not read the links.

INNOCENTS ARE MORE AT RISK WITHOUT THE DEATH PENALTY.

THE DEATH PENALTY IS A GREATER PROTECTOR OF INNOCENT LIVES IN THREE WAYS.

Of all endeavors that put innocents at risk, is there one with a better record of sparing innocent lives than the US death penalty? Unlikely.
  1. The Death Penalty: Saving More Innocent Lives
    prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2012/03/death-penalty-saving-more-innocent.html
  2. Innocents More At Risk Without Death Penalty
    prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2012/03/innocents-more-at-risk-without-death.html
 
Since about 5% of those sentenced to death are later exonerated because new witnesses or evidence comes to light, I think you need to revisit your “reality”…
Epan:

I have never seen the 5% claim, before, which would equal over 400. The current high number used by death penalty opponents is 141, which represents 1.7% of the approx 8300 sentenced to death in the modern era.

Could you please provide the source of the 5% claim,

Thank you.
 
Epan:

I have never seen the 5% claim, before, which would equal over 400. The current high number used by death penalty opponents is 141, which represents 1.7% of the approx 8300 sentenced to death in the modern era.

Could you please provide the source of the 5% claim,

Thank you.
According to the innocence project 301 have been exonerated now.

I find some of the posts here clamoring for the death penalty rather disgusting. Life imprisonment is a viable option, and allows for the reversal of wrongful convictions, and also the possibility for the convicted to repent. It seems like a “no brainer” to me.
 
According to the innocence project 301 have been exonerated now.

I find some of the posts here clamoring for the death penalty rather disgusting. Life imprisonment is a viable option, and allows for the reversal of wrongful convictions, and also the possibility for the convicted to repent. It seems like a “no brainer” to me.
You said 5%, which would be 400. Where did you get that, was my question.

The 301 exonerated are from all DNA exonerations from prison, not death row.

9 inmates have been released from death row, based upon DNA exclusion.

Justice is an honorable pursuit, as is the truth. Fact check, next time.

Again, where did youi find the 5%?

So far your “no brainers” are just that.

Innocents are more at risk without the death penalty, as I detailed. My guess is you didn’t read the links, which give unrebutted support for my claim.

Prisoners who die while in custody, which number about 5000/yr in the US, who are innocent, cannot be freed.

Review, please.

THE DEATH PENALTY: SAVING MORE INNOCENT LIVES

Of all endeavors that put innocents at risk, is there one with a better record of sparing innocent lives than the US death penalty? Unlikely.
  1. The Death Penalty: Saving More Innocent Lives
    prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2012/03/death-penalty-saving-more-innocent.html
 
But what is in Encyclicals is binding, and that section is in an Encyclical. Hence, it is binding. At least that’s how I see it.
Your perception here is not accurate. An encyclical is indeed a very serious document but that does not mean that everything in one is doctrine, and opinion even when expressed in an encyclical is still just opinion and as such is not binding.

Ender
 
The first thing Catholics learn is that God gave us freewill: the right to choose good and evil. The second is one cannot act against ones fully informed conscience. The leaders should be informing the congregation by presenting both sides in a debate and not just indoctrination by one sided presentations. In the debate against the death penalty bishops use the sanctity of life issue, all life is given by God. While that is true there is a big difference between abortion and justice for a capital crime. Abortion punishes innocent life as a result of irresponsible actions by the parents for the most part, but occasionally a result of rape. Capital punishment serves as justice for the criminal, not the innocent victim who in many cases is already dead. Political leaders have a responsibility to protect all of society with compassion and JUSTICE. If we accidently make a mistake do we not believe God can rectify it? Social justice is a copout word church leaders use for people who refuse to take personal responsibility for their own actions both legal and illegal.
Let the church leaders address issues in the church over capital crimes. Jesus told a Paralyzed man his sins was forgiven him was easier to say than get up take your mat and return to your house. Also he told the apostles that whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them. Then he told the apostles that whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven. Since these are in the Bible, why doesn’t the Catholic Church abolish Mortal sin- the sin that keeps one from eternal Heaven? Surely eternity is more critical to us than the proper use of the death penalty for horrific crimes.
 
The first thing Catholics learn is that God gave us freewill: the right to choose good and evil. The second is one cannot act against ones fully informed conscience. The leaders should be informing the congregation by presenting both sides in a debate and not just indoctrination by one sided presentations. In the debate against the death penalty bishops use the sanctity of life issue, all life is given by God. While that is true there is a big difference between abortion and justice for a capital crime. Abortion punishes innocent life as a result of irresponsible actions by the parents for the most part, but occasionally a result of rape. Capital punishment serves as justice for the criminal, not the innocent victim who in many cases is already dead. Political leaders have a responsibility to protect all of society with compassion and JUSTICE. If we accidently make a mistake do we not believe God can rectify it? Social justice is a copout word church leaders use for people who refuse to take personal responsibility for their own actions both legal and illegal.
Let the church leaders address issues in the church over capital crimes. Jesus told a Paralyzed man his sins was forgiven him was easier to say than get up take your mat and return to your house. Also he told the apostles that whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them. Then he told the apostles that whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven. Since these are in the Bible, why doesn’t the Catholic Church abolish Mortal sin- the sin that keeps one from eternal Heaven? Surely eternity is more critical to us than the proper use of the death penalty for horrific crimes.
 
Your perception here is not accurate. An encyclical is indeed a very serious document but that does not mean that everything in one is doctrine, and opinion even when expressed in an encyclical is still just opinion and as such is not binding.

Ender
I see my flaw. My argument about prudential judgment has been flawed. BUT, I have another one.

Perhaps Bl. Pope John Paul II was saying authoritatively that in the present age capital punishment must be used only in cases to protect society, and that this is a principle that should be followed today.

Evangelium Vitae 56 says:

*In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: “If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”.48 *
 
Perhaps Bl. Pope John Paul II was saying authoritatively that in the present age capital punishment must be used only in cases to protect society, and that this is a principle that should be followed today.

Evangelium Vitae 56 says:

In any event, the principle set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church remains valid: “If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”.48
There are several issues, here, the first of which is that alll sanctions are based upon that which is deserved, not upon the protection of society.

Justice is primary, protection, secondary.

No jusification has been given to replacing 2000 years of teaching based upon justice, with a weaker, secondary issue, protection.

How can the eternal teachings of justice become secondary to the day to day workings of the prison system?

One is a teaching based in principle, the other in utilitarianism.

That is the most important issue/question.

Secondarily, execution is an enhanced protector of society, over incarceration. So why would the Church and Pope insist that we spare murderers lives, at the cost of more innocent deaths, based upon a human and changing incarceration system?

Then this:

How can this be true:

“If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”.

When we have this?

2260: “For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning… Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.” “This teaching remains necessary for all time.”
 
In most murders, they should not have the death penalty. Passion crimes such as where a man comes home finds his wife doing it with another man and shoots them both dead or a woman comes home, finds her husband doing it with another woman and shoots them both dead should be punished by many years in prison for Murder 2, but not the death penalty. Most people who commit murder are normal people and murderers can sometimes be nice people because most killers are again ordinary people.

If the death penalty is used, then it must only be for worst cases such as a mass murderer who shoots people in a shopping mall but a*** jury *** must decide. If jury decides against the death penalty and gives life in prison w/o parole, then that’s fine. But there’s something about death row inmates people don’t think much of or when they do they say which is true-that’s not who they are now. People on death row were once upon a time innocent small kids but no, that’s not who they are now. How do posters here feel about how parents of death row imates must remember them after they’re executed :confused: Parents of death row inmates sometimes keep photos of the inmates when they were 5 years old and they do that to remember the in life when they were innocent small kids. If you can say it better then please inform because while it’s not who they are now, death row inmates were once upon a time small kids who were innocent.
 
In most murders, they should not have the death penalty. Passion crimes such as where a man comes home finds his wife doing it with another man and shoots them both dead or a woman comes home, finds her husband doing it with another woman and shoots them both dead should be punished by many years in prison for Murder 2, but not the death penalty.
Did not the spouse have his or her suspicions? Why did she come home early? Why was he armed? Murder is murder whether it is done for money or revenge, it ought to be punished in the same way every time.
Most people who commit murder are normal people and murderers can sometimes be nice people because most killers are again ordinary people.
This is probably the most idiotic statement I have heard in a long time. The fact that murderers unlawfully kill other people excludes them from cvilized society. They are not nice or normal by any rational defintion. If they were, they wouldn’t commit serious crimes now would they?
If the death penalty is used, then it must only be for worst cases such as a mass murderer who shoots people in a shopping mall but a*** jury *** must decide. If jury decides against the death penalty and gives life in prison w/o parole, then that’s fine.
It’s fine for Johnny’s parents to pay for his murderer’s three hot meals, his bed, and cable tv, instead of Johnny’s college education?
But there’s something about death row inmates people don’t think much of or when they do they say which is true-that’s not who they are now. People on death row were once upon a time innocent small kids but no, that’s not who they are now. How do posters here feel about how parents of death row imates must remember them after they’re executed :confused: Parents of death row inmates sometimes keep photos of the inmates when they were 5 years old and they do that to remember the in life when they were innocent small kids. If you can say it better then please inform because while it’s not who they are now, death row inmates were once upon a time small kids who were innocent.
How do you think the parents of murder victims feel after their innocent children are slaughtered by some monster?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top