The death penalty is justified

[Miles_Mariae]

I would add, also, that the deterrent value of the death penalty is also immaterial to the question, and makes a human being into a means to an end.

I concur. However, the argument from the Old Testament seems to be valid, and I would like your (name removed by moderator)ut on that if possible, Hastrman.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I concur. However, the argument from the Old Testament seems to be valid, and I would like your (name removed by moderator)ut on that if possible, Hastrman.

However, there is the risk of becoming vindictive- Let (H)e who is without sin cast the first stone…

 

[Miles_Mariae]

However, there is the risk of becoming vindictive- Let (H)e who is without sin cast the first stone…

There is such a risk. However, what I have proven is that capital punishment is not murder, which is what I set out to do. If you will recall, I posted to answer your query:

Very well- how is it not murder?

Whether it should be performed is another question, and one that was not in the original scope of my participation here. In fact, I do not presume to know.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

There is such a risk. However, what I have proven is that capital punishment is not murder, which is what I set out to do. If you will recall, I posted to answer your query:

Whether it should be performed is another question, and one that was not in the original scope of my participation here. In fact, I do not presume to know.

With what definition of murder? Are you going with hastrman’s defintion?

 

[Miles_Mariae]

With what definition of murder? Are you going with hastrman’s defintion?

No, I simply go on the basis that God did not command murder when He commanded capital punishment in the Old Testament. If it is possible to command capital punishment and simultaneously not command murder, it necessarily follows that capital punishment does not imply murder.

 

[Hastrman]

I concur. However, the argument from the Old Testament seems to be valid, and I would like your (name removed by moderator)ut on that if possible, Hastrman.

Defining murder as unlawful killing is simply circular reasoning–murder is the kind of killing that’s against the law, and it’s against the law because it’s murder. The question of guilt and innocence breaks the logical loop, by defining the terms on an independent basis.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Defining murder as unlawful killing is simply circular reasoning–murder is the kind of killing that’s against the law, and it’s against the law because it’s murder. The question of guilt and innocence breaks the logical loop, by defining the terms on an independent basis.

I just posted a summary of my argument. It does not involve circularity.

Even in the weakest sense, defining murder to be unlawful killing is not circular. It merely shifts the burden of proof to the opponent, forcing him to prove that the law prohibits capital punishment as a form of murder.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I just posted a summary of my argument. It does not involve circularity.

But your original defintion did. You have added to the argument since then. Let’s move on. Or not. I would still like a clearly worded definition of murder.

 

[Hastrman]

I just posted a summary of my argument. It does not involve circularity.

Well, not completely, but I think my definition is better because it is not dependent on the authority of any law but intrinsic morality. If God’s Law was not based on intrinsic morality, that is if it was not reasonable but was arbitrary, He could not claim His name was Truth (Emet), and I for one would decline to know Him. Fortunately I believe the Muslims are wrong, and God is not irrational.

Also if you define murder solely on the basis of the Old Testament any non-Christian can simply plead ignorance of the law and would, justly, have to be let off. Also it’s totally arbitrary to enforce that Old Testament law but have images and eat pork and use fire on Saturdays. We are not under Torah–we’re Christians, not Jews.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

But your original defintion did. You have added to the argument since then. Let’s move on. Or not. I would still like a clearly worded definition of murder.

That’s an admirable desire, and I hope someone can provide it. Since I’ve shown that capital punishment is not murder per se, I think I’m going to retire for the night.

Good luck.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Also if you define murder solely on the basis of the Old Testament any non-Christian can simply plead ignorance of the law and would, justly, have to be let off. Also it’s totally arbitrary to enforce that Old Testament law but have images and eat pork and use fire on Saturdays. We are not under Torah–we’re Christians, not Jews.

You’ve missed my point, I think. I’m not saying that we need to enforce the OT law, but rather that because capital punishment is part of OT law, it cannot be inherently evil (i.e. murder) since God’s law cannot be evil.

I suppose if you want to define another kind of murder and assign it to capital punishment, you could do that, but then you cannot use the Ten Commandments to prove that it is mortal sin.

 

[Hastrman]

You’ve missed my point, I think. I’m not saying that we need to enforce the OT law, but rather that because capital punishment is part of OT law, it cannot be inherently evil (i.e. murder) since God’s law cannot be evil.

I suppose if you want to define another kind of murder and assign it to capital punishment, you could do that, but then you cannot use the Ten Commandments to prove that it is mortal sin.

I see; yes, I agree. God cannot command evil.

But if you’d said to Moses, “Why are these killings unlawful?”, he almost certainly would say, “Because their victims do not warrant death.”

And I couldn’t define another kind of murder because any killing of the innocent is murder. Those murders that warrant capital punishment are the ones that meet the criteria I listed–and I would also include certain rapes, incest, and cannibalism on the list. I don’t think murder is the only crime that warrants death.

 

[pnewton]

Murder - the deliberate killing of an innocent person.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Murder - the deliberate killing of an innocent person.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm

OK, much better.

No further objections. I was playing devil’s advocate to begin with.

Now the question is, what actions warrant death?

 

[wow]

Capital Punishment

Political Responsibility
p. 16.
"The Church’s commitment to the value and dignity of human life leads us to oppose the use of the death penalty. We believe that a return to the use of the death penalty is further eroding respect for life in our society. We do not question society’s right to protect itself, but we believe that there are better approaches to protecting our people from violent crimes. The application of the death penalty has been discriminatory toward the poor, the indigent, and racial minorities. Our society should reject the death penalty and seek methods of dealing with violent crime that are more consistent with the gospel visions of respect for life and Christ’s message of healing love. This principle is set forth in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church

USCCB

Catechism of the Catholic Church
2266
“Preserving the common good of society requires rendering the aggressor unable to inflict harm. For this reason the traditional teaching of the Church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty. For analogous reasons those holding authority have the right to repel by armed force aggressors against the community in their charge.”

2267
“If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.”


Catechism

Although not overtly condemning capital punishment, the
Catechism does strongly discourage it.

I believe this means necessary use of force to save an innocent life. For instance, a perpetrator has hostages and is proven to be willing to take life, law enforcement officials may use necessary force to save the innocent.

Once a perpetrator has been incorporated in to the penal system chances are lives are safe and there is a possiblity of conversion by the perpetrator.

Capital punishment should not be a tool of revenge. Vengeance is not ours.

 

[goofyjim]

Excuse me. We do not have a moral duty to kill our neighbor no matter what he has done. This is a negotiable issue and one can support it or be opposed to it. To tell us we have to do either is wrong.

 

[pnewton]

OK, much better.

No further objections. I was playing devil’s advocate to begin with.

Now the question is, what actions warrant death?

I have answered this dozens of times so far, so one more time won’t hurt. Since I am not inconcert with most of the US bishops, the USCCB or Pope JPII, let me state this is only my opinion.

1. Has taken innocent life, deliberately and with malice
2. Presents reasonable evindence of a lifestyle of violence and an ongoing danger to society.
3. Presents reasonable evidence that housing he can not be safely housed for life in prison.

 

[SoCalRC]

Since I am not inconcert with most of the US bishops, the USCCB or Pope JPII, let me state this is only my opinion.

Thank you, that’s all I’ve ever asked. Disagreement with the Magesterium is one thing, but strenuously arguing that one’s disagreement is good Catholicism is something else.

 

[Sheeniac]

But your original defintion did. You have added to the argument since then. Let’s move on. Or not. I would still like a clearly worded definition of murder.

The taking of innocent life (killing) in a non-war environment.

Self-defense - ok

Revenge killing ( hunting someone down once danger is no longer a factor) murder

War - ok

DP - a punishment inflicted by society on a non-innocent life

abortion - innocent life - murder

 

[pnewton]

Thank you, that’s all I’ve ever asked. Disagreement with the Magesterium is one thing, but strenuously arguing that one’s disagreement is good Catholicism is something else.

True, but neither is it bad Catholicism. It is acceptable Catholicism. This should be one of those categories where we need to be charitable with each other’s opinion.