The death penalty is justified

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While the question of whether the death penalty deters crime or not has gone on for a long time, fairly new studies show that the death penalty is indeed a deterrent
Let’s skip the question of whether it has been proven that executions are a deterrent and ask: what would it mean if it could be proven that they are?

The Catechism says (2267): *“If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient … to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means”.

*Since 2267 provides the only argument against the death penalty, what if we discover that executions deter other murderers? Would it not be clear in that case that bloodless means (life in prison) do not “protect the safety of persons”? And if that is so wouldn’t that mean that we would be obligated to use capital punishment? At the very least it would eliminate this argument against its use.

It is disturbing that a moral issue (capital punishment) has been made to hang on the answer to a “scientific” question: do executions deter other murderers.

Ender
 
While the question of whether the death penalty deters crime or not has gone on for a long time, fairly new studies show that the death penalty is indeed a deterrent:

comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2007/06/10/686081.html

Now, if the death penalty stops murders, then we have a moral obligation to support it. After all, by banning capital punishment we would be sentencing innocents to death. With mandatory modern DNA evidence the idea that we could sentence an innocent to death is seemingly close to impossible.

While some mild statements critical of capital punishment have come out of the Church as of late, the statements and actions of the Church in the past speak strongly in favor of its usage. I hardly think that Blessed Pope Urban II, who rallied Europe to crush the Seljuk hordes, would utter a word against capital punishment.

I think all of this opposition to the death penalty is a waste of time and would be better spent fighting against the abortion holocaust. While the Catholics who oppose capital punishment and fight against it truly have good and holy intentions, I feel the end result of their efforts would not be good. The innocent children in the womb deserve our resources, not rapists and murderers.

I say that as long as we have solid DNA evidence, let the murderers, rapists, and pedophiles be executed.
The article is rather lacking. All crime is dropping read “Freakonomics” he claims abortion not the death penalty is the cause. So are going to support abortion now? Both are wrong, aging and contraception are the real causes. Please note your author chooses not to compare states with verses states without the death penalty but instead sited the crime is dropping base for the conclusion.
 
It is disturbing that a moral issue (capital punishment) has been made to hang on the answer to a “scientific” question: do executions deter other murderers.
It doesn’t. Protecting society from the aggressor is not the same thing as sacrificing the aggressor to deter others.

Brutality to obtain order is specifically against the inalienable rights of the human person defined by the Second Vatican Council. So, if you accept the death penalty, which does claim innocent victims, on the grounds that you cannot properly maintain civil order without lethal violence against unarmed individuals wholly under your power, then your state has no legitiamcy to exist in the eyes of the Church.
 
True, but neither is it bad Catholicism. It is acceptable Catholicism. This should be one of those categories where we need to be charitable with each other’s opinion.
No, it does not, in of itself, raise to the criteria of CIC 915. That is, the Church does not hold that it reaches the level where a priest should deny you Holy Communion.

However, it is disobeying the prudential teachings of the Church and the Roman Pontiff. Which even Jimmy Akins agrees is, in of itself, not good Catholicism.

Again, you are welcome to your opinion. It is just the corruption of Church teachings that I resist.
 
The Church does not teach that capital punishment is inherently wrong. That’s corrupting Church teaching.
 
Again, you are welcome to your opinion. It is just the corruption of Church teachings that I resist.
Then quit corrupting it, or are you starting to beg the question again?

I stand be my statement. I know I would appreciate a little charity when I am following the Church’s teaching. Fortunately your opinion of what makes a good Catholic is irrelevant. I trust most others will agree that we should be charitable.
 
Then quit corrupting it, or are you starting to beg the question again?

I stand be my statement. I know I would appreciate a little charity when I am following the Church’s teaching. Fortunately your opinion of what makes a good Catholic is irrelevant. I trust most others will agree that we should be charitable.
I believe in Christian charity. I’m actually surprised, given the long string of baseless labels and accusations that you have previously thrown at me that you would broach the subject. But we are not talking about charity - in this case that is limited to my accepting and acknowledging that my position is not nec. any more rightous than yours in the eyes of God.

But we aren’t talking about Christian Charity, we are talking about Catholic Doctrine and the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church. For better or worse, we are expressly called to obey, with special reverence, the Vicar of Christ - even when he is not speaking ex cathedra. Disobedience is not doctrinally equivelent to obedience.

I cannot know the mind of God, so I cannot presume to know how our differences effect, say, salvation. But Church doctrine is written down, and rightfully interpretted by the Magesterium. You, yourself, stated, that you are at odds with the Holy See and virtually all the Bishops. To state that being at odds with the Magesterium is equivelent Catholicism to being in agreement, or at least obedience, is wholly illogical, in that it requires a rejection of the nature of the Church.
 
I’m just an old country boy but I’d like to provide some food for thought on what the bible does teach and I’d love to hear the different opinions of it.

We believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To me this makes me think Son and the Father are of one accord in God’s infinite wisdom. With this said, I am pasting some verses below and would love to hear opinions of God not striking Cain dead for his crime if he did indeed approve of a death penalty.

Gen 4:14 Behold thou dost cast me out this day from the face of the earth, and from thy face I shall be hid, and I shall be a vagabond and a fugitive on the earth: every one therefore that findeth me, shall kill me.
Gen 4:15 And the Lord said to him: No, it shall not so be: but whosoever shall kill Cain, shall be punished sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, that whosoever found him should not kill him.
 
With mandatory modern DNA evidence the idea that we could sentence an innocent to death is seemingly close to impossible.
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I say that as long as we have solid DNA evidence, let the murderers, rapists, and pedophiles be executed.
DNA evidence is circumstantial evidence and nothing more. Most certainly not conclusive proof of guilt in any matter.
 
But we aren’t talking about Christian Charity, we are talking about Catholic Doctrine and the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church.
The CCC explicitly says that governments may have recourse to the death penalty. That is Catholic doctrine. The circumstances are also narrowly defined in the CCC. That is Catholic doctrine. Whether of no the US meets this criteria is not a Catholic doctrine.

People must not judge each other in matters that the Church does not.
 
I’m just an old country boy but I’d like to provide some food for thought on what the bible does teach and I’d love to hear the different opinions of it.

We believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To me this makes me think Son and the Father are of one accord in God’s infinite wisdom. With this said, I am pasting some verses below and would love to hear opinions of God not striking Cain dead for his crime if he did indeed approve of a death penalty.

Gen 4:14 Behold thou dost cast me out this day from the face of the earth, and from thy face I shall be hid, and I shall be a vagabond and a fugitive on the earth: every one therefore that findeth me, shall kill me.
Gen 4:15 And the Lord said to him: No, it shall not so be: but whosoever shall kill Cain, shall be punished sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, that whosoever found him should not kill him.
I think it is also notable that whoever killed Cain would be punished sevenfold, though. We also know that God did authorize the death penalty in coming years.

The significance of Cain was dealt with at length in Evangelium Vitae. Cain was spared because of God’s mercy and to show us that we must view mercy as the first recourse. Something else to consider is that teh murder of Abel was a crime of passion, what would be called manslaughter in most states.
 
Now, if the death penalty stops murders, then we have a moral obligation to support it. After all, by banning capital punishment we would be sentencing innocents to death. With mandatory modern DNA evidence the idea that we could sentence an innocent to death is seemingly close to impossible.
This argument is neither moral nor logical.

Deterrence is the idea that a punishment is useful or justified not because of its effect on the criminal, but for its effect on other people. This argument cannot be morally applied to the death penalty. The very nature of the deterrence argument is that it is moral to kill one man, in order that another be convinced to act properly. How can it be moral to kill people, not because their actions require it, but because we believe their death will be useful to us in an unrelated matter?

Would it also be moral to kill life prisoners and use their organs to save other peoples lives? If not, how is this different? Why wouldn’t killing a prisoner and thereby guaranteeing that several lives are saved be as moral as killing a prisoner in the hope that some lives may be saved?
 
Now, if the death penalty stops murders, then we have a moral obligation to support it.
We have no moral obligation to support murder in any situation.

Why does our nation condone killing people who kill people in order to show that killing people is wrong? It’s a contradiction through and through.

Innocent men and women have been executed–Christ included. The system is not only flawed but unnecessary in this country where we are perfectly capable of confining and holding murderers. We are not judges over life and death. God is. I recall Saint Paul saying, “Leave vengeance to God.”

The sooner we rid ourselves of capital punishment, the sooner we begin to respect the sanctity of human life as a whole in this nation and, hopefully, the sooner we see an end to abortion as well.
 
Murder is the unjust taking of life.

It is not justice to call ourselves judges over life itself.

It is murder.
 
Exodus and Leviticus. It was written into the Mosaic Law.
First let me thank you for making me do some research. Without exact locations, it took me a bit of reading.

I am posting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church below;

I. Respect for Human Life

The witness of sacred history

2259 In the account of Abel’s murder by his brother Cain,57 Scripture reveals the presence of anger and envy in man, consequences of original sin, from the beginning of human history. Man has become the enemy of his fellow man. God declares the wickedness of this fratricide: "What have you done? the voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. and now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand."58

2260 The covenant between God and mankind is interwoven with reminders of God’s gift of human life and man’s murderous violence:

For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning… Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.59

The Old Testament always considered blood a sacred sign of life.60 This teaching remains necessary for all time.

2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: "Do not slay the innocent and the righteous."61 The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. the law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

2262 In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord recalls the commandment, "You shall not kill,"62 **and adds to it the proscription of anger, hatred, and vengeance. Going further, Christ asks his disciples to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies.63 He did not defend himself and told Peter to leave his sword in its sheath.**64

Legitimate defense

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor… the one is intended, the other is not."65

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful… Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life. Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. To this end, those holding legitimate authority have the right to repel by armed force aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their charge.66

Capital Punishment

2266 The State’s effort to contain the spread of behaviors injurious to human rights and the fundamental rules of civil coexistence corresponds to the requirement of watching over the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime. the primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it takes on the value of expiation. Moreover, punishment, in addition to preserving public order and the safety of persons, has a medicinal scope: as far as possible it should contribute to the correction of the offender.67

2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
"If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
"Today, in fact, given the means at the State’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today … are very rare, if not practically non-existent.
’[John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56.]

I have underlined the part I believe you were referring too. This was under the “old” covenant with God. You can see under the new covenant of Jesus, it just plainly states “You shall not kill”.

To read on through, you can see the Church’s stance on the death penalty. It plainly states that the necessity are very rare, if not practically non-existent.

From my understanding of what I’ve said and posted above, I respectfully have to disagree with you and agree with the Church that the death penalty, once a person has been incarcerated, is very rare if not practically non-existent.

I believe Moses was given authority under the old covenant and Jesus changed that with the new covenant and with means available to us in today’s society, the death penalty is no longer an absolute necessity.

Peace,
 
The CCC explicitly says that governments may have recourse to the death penalty. That is Catholic doctrine. The circumstances are also narrowly defined in the CCC. That is Catholic doctrine. Whether of no the US meets this criteria is not a Catholic doctrine.

People must not judge each other in matters that the Church does not.
You’re behind the curve. Pope John Paul II specifically rendered an opinion on the matter. In the UNITED STATES CATECHISM FOR ADULTS (approved by Rome) the teaching is reiterated.

You have chosen dissent:
“Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.” - LUMEN GENTIUM (The Dogmatic Constitution of the Church)
But we are taught to obey. If you are wondering why disobedience might matter, the Church has written a lot about that as well. For example, here;

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19900524_theologian-vocation_en.html

Section IV, Part B covers “The problem of dissent”.

I am not judging you. I am simply noting that obedience is Dogmatic, so, having chosen dissent, it is incorrect to contend that your position is morally equivelent to deference to the Magesterium.
 
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