The death penalty is justified

[Greg_Dent]

Does the end (preventing murder) justify the means (murder)?

Interesting view, but I believe that capital punishment is the same thing as war except that Instead of declaring war on another country, society declares war on the individual. And we all know that a war can be just.

 

[whatevergirl]

Interesting view, but I believe that capital punishment is the same thing as war except that Instead of declaring war on another country, society declares war on the individual. And we all know that a war can be just.

Interesting view, but it seems like we are contorting that a bit. I think there are other ways to control an individual or group of individuals. Putting someone in an area of a prison whereby they will be contained most of their day, is a start. I know this will cost money, but killing people off because we don’t want to spend the money to control prison populations just seems like the wrong option. Just my two cents.

 

[Greg_Dent]

Interesting view, but it seems like we are contorting that a bit. I think there are other ways to control an individual or group of individuals. Putting someone in an area of a prison whereby they will be contained most of their day, is a start. I know this will cost money, but killing people off because we don’t want to spend the money to control prison populations just seems like the wrong option. Just my two cents.

Yes, well we can also support the view that confining someone to a cell for the rest of their lives is the ultimate cruelty. It may be more humane to execute them. I can also ask if you, or society has the right to force me to support such individuals that can never be released into society again? How far does our moral obligation extend if the ever increasing number of prisoners guilty of capital crimes threatens not only our physical, but economic survival?

 

[Ender]

How far does our moral obligation extend if the ever increasing number of prisoners guilty of capital crimes threatens not only our physical, but economic survival?

It is interesting that this discussion has changed from a moral debate to a utilitarian one, but I’m not sure that it wasn’t inevitable given the utilitarian nature of the argument against capital punishment: it isn’t necessary in order to protect society.

Ender

 

[Greg_Dent]

It is interesting that this discussion has changed from a moral debate to a utilitarian one, but I’m not sure that it wasn’t inevitable given the utilitarian nature of the argument against capital punishment: it isn’t necessary in order to protect society.

Ender

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the moral justification for war can also be used to justify capital punishment. The utiliatrian arguments both pro and con not withstanding.

 

[whatevergirl]

It is interesting that this discussion has changed from a moral debate to a utilitarian one, but I’m not sure that it wasn’t inevitable given the utilitarian nature of the argument against capital punishment: it isn’t necessary in order to protect society.

Ender

Hi ender–interesting–i didn’t want to say that, but thought it. Perhaps, inevitably…the two become woven counterparts when discussing life or death situations that have the government involved?

 

[pnewton]

Hi ender–interesting–i didn’t want to say that, but thought it. Perhaps, inevitably…the two become woven counterparts when discussing life or death situations that have the government involved?

There is that. The CCC surely tilts the debate in a utilitarian direction by the way it is worded.

 

[joseph_virgen]

trying to justify the death penalty is asking sympathy for the devil. it says: “it’s really not that bad.”

this is the same rationale that the complicated mind uses to justify the case for abortion and euthanasia. in every one of these life altering circumstances complicated minds will themselves into accepting a particular circumstance that offers them some degree of comfort. they wish for the hurt to cease.

make no mistake, the line was drawn long ago. there is never a reason for abortion, never a reason for euthanasia and there is certainly never a reason for the death penalty.

they are all part of our suffering, our cross. and not everybody can pick up their cross. only those who know who their Father is, knows of the wondrous cleansing affect of suffering, and welcome it. humanity has a great teacher, the Nazarene.

 

[Athanasiy]

Greetings Roman Crusader!
Greetings to all !
I shall read later the posts in this thread because I am in the internet cafe at the moment.

I think the death penalty is not justified today.
Because the human race to which , every one of us belongs has grown up in its understanding of justice.
We have got a civilized , adult , ripe intellect.
And its a shame to have the death penalty in the democratical countries in the 21-st century.

I think the death penalty is similar with the slavery in its own time.
Who could prove before that slavery is not justified by the Bible ?

To justify the death penalty , to justify the slavery today according to the ‘Bible Book’ ( the book mediated through the authors or the book which was given to us directly from above ) is the same as leading one to talk of a book when the author of the book is concealed behind the door.

 

[wabrams]

whatevergirl;3316792:

Interesting view, but it seems like we are contorting that a bit. I think there are other ways to control an individual or group of individuals. Putting someone in an area of a prison whereby they will be contained most of their day, is a start.

On the surface that seems like it that would be an easy fix, but it’s not. Did you know that the heads of some of America’s most violent street gangs are in solitary confinement in US prisons and run the gangs from there?
whatevergirl;3316792:

I know this will cost money, but killing people off because we don’t want to spend the money to control prison populations just seems like the wrong option. Just my two cents.

It cost WAY more money to put someone to death than to have them serve a life sentence. With the death penalty comes appeals after appeals, plus all the attorney costs. Its much, much cheaper to give them a life sentence.

 

[Ender]

trying to justify the death penalty is asking sympathy for the devil. it says: “it’s really not that bad.”

It is the Church that justified the death penalty. All of my comments are based directly on what the Church has taught.

make no mistake, the line was drawn long ago. there is never a reason for abortion, never a reason for euthanasia and there is certainly never a reason for the death penalty.

Actually, there was an unbroken line of support drawn from the very beginning until 1995 that shows continual support for capital punishment. From the disciple Paul through Paul VI the Church taught that capital punishment was proper.

humanity has a great teacher, the Nazarene.

“the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church.” (Dei verbum 10)

Ender

 

[joseph_virgen]

we all love the church. it is our foundation, our direct link to the Nazarene. it is the rock. --------------------------------however, as one who makes his living in the building trades, i know that no building has ever been built to perfection. there are always problems. specifications are often stretched to the imagination with what is acceptable. punch lists are a given fact. once completed to ‘acceptability’, often because of monetary considerations, an ongoing assault of maintenance continues for the duration of the finish project.

knowingly, the foundation is strong, but we have seen too many interpretations to the original design. and yes, materials change, specifications change, environmental concerns change, but people do not change.

the foundation is strong, but the structure is weak, perhaps the original design should be revisited more often to give us a better perspective of time.

 

[Ender]

we all love the church.

It is better to ask whether we believe the Church is what she says she is. You cannot reject her claims to authority in one area without rejecting the claim itself: either she is what she says she is … or she isn’t. If her claim is true then her proclamations are to be understood not as hers but as God’s. Your interpretation of the death penalty differs from what the Church has always taught.

“{Discernment in matters of faith} is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the people of God accepts that which is not just the word of men but truly the word of God.” (Lumen gentium 12)

“what is communicated in catechesis is not a body of conceptual truths, but the mystery of the living God.” (Fides et ratio 99)

Ender

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

While the question of whether the death penalty deters crime or not has gone on for a long time, fairly new studies show that the death penalty is indeed a deterrent:

comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2007/06/10/686081.html

Now, if the death penalty stops murders, then we have a moral obligation to support it. After all, by banning capital punishment we would be sentencing innocents to death. With mandatory modern DNA evidence the idea that we could sentence an innocent to death is seemingly close to impossible.

While some mild statements critical of capital punishment have come out of the Church as of late, the statements and actions of the Church in the past speak strongly in favor of its usage. I hardly think that Blessed Pope Urban II, who rallied Europe to crush the Seljuk hordes, would utter a word against capital punishment.

I think all of this opposition to the death penalty is a waste of time and would be better spent fighting against the abortion holocaust. While the Catholics who oppose capital punishment and fight against it truly have good and holy intentions, I feel the end result of their efforts would not be good. The innocent children in the womb deserve our resources, not rapists and murderers.

I say that as long as we have solid DNA evidence, let the murderers, rapists, and pedophiles be executed.

I think it’s scandalous that criminals sometimes get off scot-free, because that denies them the right to be punished for their crimes. This is particularly unjust to the sort of people you mention, who are being most unjustly deprived of the right to pay with their lives for their revolting crimes. Whether the DP deters or not, is irrelevant to the crimes committed by this or that criminal: the question to answer in regard to the criminal is, “How is the criminal to be punished ?” He’s not going to be deterred by stats, because he is already a criminal.​

In addition, by not being executed in this world, they are being exposed to the danger of damning themselves for ever in the next. As for repentance - let them repent before they are executed. Why should repentance save a criminal from death ?

The false humanitarianism which - in effect - sees execution as worse than Hell-fire, deserves severe condemnation. It has no basis in the Bible, Tradition, Conciliar teaching, nor yet in the episcopal or Papal teaching of any generation before our own. Popes have frequently executed criminals: Blessed Pius IX did so, & St.Pius V burned heretics. JP2 beatified several Inquisitors.

Besides, criminals who are set free often commit the sorts of crime you mention - this has often happened in the UK. With a sane approach - IOW, one which allowed for such criminals to be to be hanged - such tragedies would not have occurred. I’m very disappointed you don’t include traitors, terrorists, kidnappers & perjurers in your list of criminals: such people are among the worst enemies a society can be cursed with.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

Once you incarcerate someone into the penal system the death penalty is not necessity. I saw an arguement on the gangs. Better security could have stopped that. Those who assisted the gangs are complicit in my opinion.

The security levels at Pelican Bay were attracting complaints about human rights violations from various and sundry corners even though it was obvious that they were not yet secure enough for the type of convicts stored there. Why are you advocating the creation of a catch-22 where - from a purely utilitarian perspective - there is no way to create a safe environment for the innocent, while offering only platitudes when your ideal is identified as practically unfeasible?

 

[wow]

The security levels at Pelican Bay were attracting complaints about human rights violations from various and sundry corners even though it was obvious that they were not yet secure enough for the type of convicts stored there. Why are you advocating the creation of a catch-22 where - from a purely utilitarian perspective - there is no way to create a safe environment for the innocent, while offering only platitudes when your ideal is identified as practically unfeasible?

I am not saying it would be easy, not as easy as ending a life would be. It is sad to see that society has desensitized itself to take the easier way out. We have the resources and abilities to work out a secure system. Since that system would be man made and maintained I’ll admit it would not be infallible. To accept the current system is to accept the proven possibilites of innocent deaths.

 

[pnewton]

To accept the current system is to accept the proven possibilites of innocent deaths.

That will always be unavoidable in this world. All victims of murder are innocent deaths.

 

[wow]

That will always be unavoidable in this world. All victims of murder are innocent deaths.

The death penalty was handed down to an individual some 2000 years ago because society demanded his death. Have we learned nothing since his innocent death?

 

[pnewton]

The death penalty was handed down to an individual some 2000 years ago because society demanded his death. Have we learned nothing since his innocent death?

Jesus dies to teach us about the death penalty?

 

[wow]

Jesus dies to teach us about the death penalty?

Jesus could’ve stopped the crucifixion but sacrificed himself for us. My point was if society could’ve made such a grievous error then it is possible we could make such an error again?