The demand for evidence for the existence of God

[JDaniel]

Good question. Quite a few to be exact I run my own business, am involved in local politics, help run an animal sanctuary charity, and raise a family - Im full of ideas

Sarah x

Do you ever have ideas that you deem bad (not real good, as they say), and immediately drop?

God bless,
jd

 

[atheistgirl]

I’d love to answer valid (conforming historically) questions. But not nonsense.

God bless,
jd

Then clarify for me - it seemed to me you were saying a true christian would never do anything like engage in violence - churches are littered with violent history - so it seemed like you were saying these people must be erm, what was the word - dys-religious - if thats not what you were saying then spell it out a more clearerer and elaborify

Sarah x

 

[JDaniel]

Now I’m sure there are loads of things that we agree on.

That’s fine - Christians can knowingly do no ill by your definition of the term. You can have whatever private definitions of words you want and you can even use them to communicate provided you share your definition. I’ll just observe that you’ve defined a mythical beast, like a centaur or a unicorn, never actually to be met with (well, except, according to the Church in precisely two cases). I’m not sure just how useful a definition that is.

Alec
evolutionpages.com

Alec:

And, you are so sure: how?

God bless,
jd

 

[atheistgirl]

Do you ever have ideas that you deem bad (not real good, as they say), and immediately drop?

God bless,
jd

Rarely - I tend to shelve them for further inspection at a later date or maybe some reworking. Im one of those insufferable people that always thinks my ideas are great - But I have brought several products to market and got them patented - but yeah, I guess there must have been ideas I thought of and dropped - now I think of it, I was going through a bad patch with my husband and got some great ideas off CSI - but figured Id never get away with it so dropped them

Sarah x

 

[Touchstone]

By “science”, do you mean physics, chemistry, etc? Mathematics?

Yes, with the exception of mathematics, which I would say is a different discipline (scientists use math but math isn’t science in the empirical sense).

Philosophy is just the study of hard mental problems.

Philosophy seems to ask different sorts of questions than these sciences. For example, Kant asked about the conditions of possibility for Euclidean geometry and Newtonian physics. This activity seems outside the usual scientific procedures (crucial experiment, mathematical formula). The same applies to discussions of intentionality, disclosure, the person.

There are lots of abstract questions that we pursue without invoking the epistemology or methodology of science. Pure mathematics, for example. Science develops natural models for natural phenomena, so unless the math can be integrated into a natural model, it’s extra-scientific.

Intentionality, disclosure and the features and behavior of a person seem manifestly natural, however, and do admit of scientific models, making them de facto science, so far as I can see. Science has developed a more rigorous framework for assessing questions and developing answers than “anything goes” philosophy, so many questions are pushed out of philosophical investigation as a scientific matter either to avoid those very rigors or because they somehow do not/cannot apply.

-TS

 

[JDaniel]

All of the above.

Sarah x

Sarah:

Equally, or does one comport with reality more than the other?

God bless,
jd

 

[atheistgirl]

Sarah:

Equally, or does one comport with reality more than the other?

God bless,
jd

It depends on where Im looking and what Im looking at. I tend to see a kind of contained chaos in the natural world, underneath which I know is a complex system of processes beautifully ordered by evolution.

Sarah x

 

[JDaniel]

Then clarify for me - it seemed to me you were saying a true christian would never do anything like engage in violence - churches are littered with violent history - so it seemed like you were saying these people must be erm, what was the word - dys-religious - if thats not what you were saying then spell it out a more clearerer and elaborify

Sarah x

Sarah:

There’s decent history on the internet. You can look up for yourself the facts of the Inquisition and the Crusades. But, to help guide you, I submit the following:

Of the Spanish Inquisition, which is generally regarded as the epitome of religious cruelty:
It is one of the great ironies of history that three times more people died in the forgotten event that almost surely inspired the Spanish Inquisition than died in the famous flames of the inquisition itself. Despite its reputation as one of the most vicious and lethal institutions in human history, the Spanish Inquisition was one of the most humane and decent of its time, and one could even argue the most reasonable, considering the circumstances. Indeed, there are few historical institutions that have ever been so misunderstood . . . - The Irrational Atheist, Vox Day, pg. 217, 2208.

and,

The 763-page report indicates that only 1 percent of the 125,000 trials recorded over the entire inquisition ultimately resulted in execution by the secular authority, which means that throughout its infamous 345-year history, the dread Spanish Inquisition
was less than one-fourteenth as deadly on an annual basis as children’s bicycles . . . - Ibid. pg. 219

and,

If the Spanish Inquisition was, as historian Henry Charles Lea once described it, theocratic absolutism at its worst, one can only conclude that this is an astonishingly positive testimony on behalf of theocratic absolutism. It is testimony to the strange vagaries of history that it should be the Spanish Inquisition that remains notorious today, even though the 6,832 members of the Catholic clergy murdered in the Spanish Republican Red Terror of 1936 is more than twice the number of the victims of 345 years of inquisition. - Ibid. pp. 219 - 220

and,

The Crusades, especially the First Crusade, are undoubtedly the foremost Christian example of religious war. They are not only an example of one of the dangers of religion, they also serve as an excellent example of one of the primary dangers to religion, that of being co-opted and used by secular powers for secular purposes. - Ibid., pg 220

If you would take the time to read what you may find around the internet and in popular book stores, you might discover that the atrocities you mention were exorbitantly mild in the face of the actual atrocities visited upon the people who are so vehemently blamed for them.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

It depends on where Im looking and what Im looking at. I tend to see a kind of contained chaos in the natural world, underneath which I know is a complex system of processes beautifully ordered by evolution.

Sarah x

Sarah:

Societies?

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Rarely - I tend to shelve them for further inspection at a later date or maybe some reworking. Im one of those insufferable people that always thinks my ideas are great - But I have brought several products to market and got them patented - but yeah, I guess there must have been ideas I thought of and dropped - now I think of it,

Sarah:

When you decided to drop those ideas, were they - every one of them to the letter - testable? Or, did you drop them because they seemed wrong?

I was going through a bad patch with my husband and got some great ideas off CSI - but figured Id never get away with it so dropped them

Sarah x

After I resurrected myself (pun intended), I had another good laugh. Great sense of humor!

God bless,
jd

 

[atheistgirl]

If you would take the time to read what you may find around the internet and in popular book stores, you might discover that the atrocities you mention were exorbitantly mild in the face of the actual atrocities visited upon the people who are so vehemently blamed for them.

God bless,
jd

Im sure you’re correct. But that wasnt the point I was taking from your point. If popes, or bishops, or priests, or religious or secular leaders calling themselves christians, killed or tortured even one person, then they were never a true christian according to what you were saying - or so I thought. Perhaps I completely misunderstood you.
Im sure I can find an article by a catholic writer to say not one single person was even killed in the inquisition if I look hard enough, and I’ll equally find an authoritive peer reviewed paper that says the inquisition killed 176 million people, the pope personally killed 56 kittens and the countries of Lutheralia and Calvinolia were wiped off the face of the earth, literally, by a papal nuclear weapon, built by aliens in the vatican

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Sarah:

When you decided to drop those ideas, were they - every one of them to the letter - testable? Or, did you drop them because they seemed wrong?

I know youre taking me for a walk here - so, I dont mind going with you, it’s quite exciting, but let me tell you now, just so theres no misunderstandings later, I have no hat or gloves with me so nowhere cold, I always pay my own way, Im married with kids, and Im completely in love with my husbands life insurance policy. Right, now that’s out of the way let’s walk: :

They were all testable in one way or another at the time. Some were shelved and Ive subsequently come back to them and reworked them, and they’re out there in the real world now. Some, I didnt think it’s time was right so not worth the effort in bringing to fruition, and some were just interesting but never really brought beyond the hmmmmm stage. Some were just plain old mad. Im answering you on the hoof - I’ll think about it a bit more.

Sarah x

 

[ambertrevena]

Hello **Friends…
**
What a ridiculous question it was…??? I just want to say one thing that stop asking such kind of silly question…GOD is there all around and you have to believe it…I am a astrologist who too believe in GOD…We guys are always predicting what is going to happen in your future …So this is the GOD who runs all this in our mind…

Amber Trevena.

---

Want to know your destiny click :Indian astrology and Horoscopes

 

[JDaniel]

Im sure you’re correct. But that wasnt the point I was taking from your point. If popes, or bishops, or priests, or religious or secular leaders calling themselves christians, killed or tortured even one person, then they were never a true christian according to what you were saying - or so I thought. Perhaps I completely misunderstood you.

Sarah,

OK, that makes a difference. If any of those people did those things and self-defense were not involved in any way, they would be dys-religious. (I borrowed dys from the antithesis of “function,” which is “dysfunction.”

Im sure I can find an article by a catholic writer to say not one single person was even killed in the inquisition if I look hard enough,

I dare you!

and I’ll equally find an authoritive peer reviewed paper that says the inquisition killed 176 million people, the pope personally killed 56 kittens and the countries of Lutheralia and Calvinolia were wiped off the face of the earth, literally, by a papal nuclear weapon, built by aliens in the vatican

I double-dare you!

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

I know youre taking me for a walk here - so, I dont mind going with you, it’s quite exciting, but let me tell you now, just so theres no misunderstandings later, I have no hat or gloves with me so nowhere cold, I always pay my own way, Im married with kids, and Im completely in love with my husbands life insurance policy. Right, now that’s out of the way let’s walk: :

They were all testable in one way or another at the time. Some were shelved and Ive subsequently come back to them and reworked them, and they’re out there in the real world now. Some, I didnt think it’s time was right so not worth the effort in bringing to fruition, and some were just interesting but never really brought beyond the hmmmmm stage. Some were just plain old mad. Im answering you on the hoof - I’ll think about it a bit more.

Sarah x

OK. Good. Now, as regards the testable ones, did you test them? Would you give me an example.

Walks on a Florida beach, yum. Listen, do you think your husband’s life insurance policy would notice that you stepped out on it with me?

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Hello **Friends…
**
What a ridiculous question it was…??? I just want to say one thing that stop asking such kind of silly question…GOD is there all around and you have to believe it…I am a astrologist who too believe in GOD…We guys are always predicting what is going to happen in your future …So this is the GOD who runs all this in our mind…

Amber Trevena.

---

Want to know your destiny click :Indian astrology and Horoscopes

Welcome, Amber Trevena:

OK, I will, but, just give us a few more minutes. Please.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

Sarah:

I love you . . . you know I do, but, I must go to sleep now. OK? Talk to you tomorrow, if I survive the day at work.

God bless,
jd

 

[grannymh]

When debating the existence of God, the non-believer often demands evidence. He usually means by that proof delivered by science, which, in his view, is the most solid (and sometimes the only) reliable source of knowledge.

In my view, he is like the boy in the school yard who sees other kids run off and asks them where they’re going, and when the kids tell the boy that the icecream van is around the corner and want him to come along, stubbornly shakes his head and says: No, I haven’t heard the bell ring yet.

Does the boy really need to hear the bell ring before he can trust the existence of the icecream van? There seems to be no irrefutable scientific proof for the existence of God. But, is that really needed, considering that the majority of humans believe in His existence nonetheless? Doesn’t the non-believer want his life and actions to have meaning? Doesn’t he want eternal life, eternal happiness, fulfillment of all desire?

Non-believers, don’t wait for the bell to ring, please come, and have icecream with us!

Ah, one says. God cannot be put under a natural science microscope. True.
But that does not exclude spiritual reality which can be known by the tools of reason, self reflection, logical evaluation, and analytical thought. These tools are part of human nature – the human being one sees in the mirror.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[atheistgirl]

Sarah:

I love you . . . you know I do,

Yes, but not enough to meet me for my walk on the beach it would seem
Dashed home, quick change, collected kids, flung something in the oven for dinner, called husband to say I was off for an enlightment walk but would be back in time to open his beer for him and change the channel, rushed headlong to the beach with a giddy sense of expectation and excitement, only to find… you’d gone to bed. Oh well.

OK. Good. Now, as regards the testable ones, did you test them? Would you give me an example.

Some of the ideas I tested, but not thoroughly, but enough to convince me they would fly. Sometimes these tests consisted of running through things in my head, or on paper, or even as far as a devils advocate with a colleague.
I tend to be able to see the end product as soon as I get the idea. A long while back we decided to make the bathroom smaller, and the box room bigger, and fit an extra shower downstairs. As soon as I had the idea, looking at the layout, I saw the completed works and saw immediately that it would work. My husband then went CAD crazy with exploded diagrams, archiectural drawings and measurements, you name it he drew it - to make sure everything would work and fit - but it still ended up exactly the way I pictured it.
If it’s a business idea, it gets tested to the nth degree, researched to the nth degree - especially if Im throwing my money and time behind it.
Some ideas Ive not tested beyond ‘‘thinking’’ them out - but know they would work. Other ideas Ive not tested Im not sure about because they would need a lot of research to be able to say one way or another.
Sorry, that’s probably all too vague to be of any good. My excuse is Ive just picked up a nasty nasty cold and my sinus’ are killing me - probably hanging about for half the night on a deserted beach with no hat or gloves on!!!

Sarah x

 

[JDaniel]

Yes, but not enough to meet me for my walk on the beach it would seem
Dashed home, quick change, collected kids, flung something in the oven for dinner, called husband to say I was off for an enlightment walk but would be back in time to open his beer for him and change the channel, rushed headlong to the beach with a giddy sense of expectation and excitement, only to find… you’d gone to bed. Oh well.

Sarah:

Interesting! I’ve got the sniffles, too. Where have we been?

Some of the ideas I tested, but not thoroughly, but enough to convince me they would fly. Sometimes these tests consisted of running through things in my head, or on paper, or even as far as a devils advocate with a colleague.
I tend to be able to see the end product as soon as I get the idea. A long while back we decided to make the bathroom smaller, and the box room bigger, and fit an extra shower downstairs. As soon as I had the idea, looking at the layout, I saw the completed works and saw immediately that it would work. My husband then went CAD crazy with exploded diagrams, archiectural drawings and measurements, you name it he drew it - to make sure everything would work and fit - but it still ended up exactly the way I pictured it.
If it’s a business idea, it gets tested to the nth degree, researched to the nth degree - especially if Im throwing my money and time behind it.
Some ideas Ive not tested beyond ‘‘thinking’’ them out - but know they would work. Other ideas Ive not tested Im not sure about because they would need a lot of research to be able to say one way or another.

Have any of those untested ideas ever worked out? (By the way, I’ve been in business for myself three times, in my life! So, I know what you are talking about.)

:console:

God bless,
jd