The denial of Hell-by Christians?

[Nicea325]

No, of course not. Unless, of course, he/she willingly rejects Jesus i.e. by a “non-Christian” lifestyle without repenting.

Salvation does not depend upon a specific denomination. When you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour and are living a Christian life, then you are saved.
Theoretically, you would not even need to go to a specific denomination after your “conversion”. But it’s of course highly recommended because the brothers and sisters in Christ will help to grow spiritually, to get to know Jesus always better and to become more and more like Him. Also the conversed person can help the others on that journey.

A brethern in Christ once told me: He was evangelizing in Switzerland and a girl then enthrusted Jesus her life and became a Pentecostal (Every Nation).
Later on then she went back to the CC and went to a monastery. (Became a nun.)
My brethern then asked her why she did so and she answered, "That’s the best thing I could ever have done! The whole people in the monastery now have accepted Jesus as their Saviour and are “faithful” [That’s the term they use, if you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour!]. This monastery now is part of the Charismatic Renewal.

I understand Esdra,but I am sorry,but Catholics do not teach by a mere confession one is instantly saved.

 

[Esdra]

I’ll asnwer yours,but answer my first. If purgatory is an ‘invention’ where are the historical records confirming protests by the early church and Christians?

To be perfectly honest, I don’t know much about Early Christian historical records…
So, I can’t answer this question.
Maybe this has to do with the “insidious apostasy” claimed by some Protestant denominations?

Maybe in the Early Christian times purgatory and praying for the dead did in fact not exist, and it was “invented” later on in the Middle Ages. Because also from there we don’t have many historic records as well.

Now please answer my question!

 

[Esdra]

I understand Esdra,but I am sorry,but Catholics do not teach by a mere confession one is instantly saved.

I know.
But your question was if they are saved if they converted to Catholicism, wasn’t it?
And my answer is, yes, from the Baptist perspective 100%.

By the way, enthrusting Jesus once’s life and asking Him for forgiveness is FAR MORE than a mere confession.

John writes, "12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. "

And you ARE a son of God after enthrusting Jesus your life and asking Him forgiveness.
Of course we will always sin, also after our conversion. - But we ALWAYS can go to our Father in Heaven and ask Him through Jesus as a mediator for forgiveness.
No sin is so great that God would not forgive His children. (Except the denial of the Holy Spirit, which is the willingly denial of God.)

 

[rinnie]

Mhm, 2 Maccabees doesn’t help me. If I ask my pastor about 2 Maccabees he’ll respond, “Forget that, these are apocrypha and not the Word of God.”

So, rinnie I’d like to have a verse where it says about the “final cleansing”. So that I can ask my pastor what Baptists believe concerning that, in order to answer your question above.

Okay, lets try this, and hope yyour Pastor takes this as the word of God. Where shall we start. Oh I know.

Matt. 5:26 and 18:34 and Luke 12:58-59 Talks about being thrown into prison and not getting out until the last penny is paid. Okay now where is this prison, its not heaven,and you don’t get out of hell, where is this prison Jesus speaks of. Purgatory.

Matt 12:32 Jesus says anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit is not forgiven in this world or the next, Now forgivenss is not needed in heaven, and there is none in hell. Where is (the Next) by the way that is greek for afterlife. (

1 Cor 15:29-30 Paul mentions being baptised on behaf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins, Now they can’t be in heaven because they have sins, and in hell your sins can no longer be atoned for. Where is this place Paul is talking about then?

Phil. 2:10 Every knee bends to Jesus in heaven, on earth or under the earth. Where is the realm of the righteous dead then?

2 Tim 1:16-18 Omeisphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him on that day. On that day demonstrates Rom 2.5 1Cor 1.8 3.13 5.5 I could go on and on, but lets start there, again no need for mercy in heaven,and none in hell. Where is Omeisphorus where this mercy is needed?

Heb. 12:14 without holiness no one will see God, we need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, if this process is not completed during our lives we need that transitional state, WHere is it then?

1 Peter 3:19 4:6 Jesus teached to the spirits in prison. These are the righeous souls being purified for beatific vision. Where might this place be?

Rev. 21:4 God shall wipe every tear and there will be no MORE mourning or pain but only after the end of time, where are they, there is no morning or pain in heaven, and no wiping of tears in hell, where are they.

Now here is my favorite one, Your preacher is going to have a hard one here. He does not accept the scripture of being purified, being wiped clean correct, because its easier to reject that scripture as the word of God correct. Well, it just so happens when God speak the truth he speaks the truth. He also talks again about being wiped clean which I am sure you can agree is being purified. Well take him on a little walk through the book of Rev. THere you will find as clear as the nose on your face. Rev. 21:27 He can’t reject that one right. The word unclean comes from the greek word koinon which refers to spirital corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt or considered unclean, and must be purifed before entering heaven.

So hit him with that scripture, I am anxious to hear his responses. And please buddy don’t let him get away with, we don’t see it that way, You make him explain it, and make him make it line up perfectly with the word of God. I would expect no less from my Priest.

So please come back and answer every response. I will give you time, for I know it will take you time to see him and I am sure like my Priest he is busy.

 

[rinnie]

I know.
But your question was if they are saved if they converted to Catholicism, wasn’t it?
And my answer is, yes, from the Baptist perspective 100%.

By the way, enthrusting Jesus once’s life and asking Him for forgiveness is FAR MORE than a mere confession.

John writes, "12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. "

And you ARE a son of God after enthrusting Jesus your life and asking Him forgiveness.
Of course we will always sin, also after our conversion. - But we ALWAYS can go to our Father in Heaven and ask Him through Jesus as a mediator for forgiveness.
No sin is so great that God would not forgive His children. (Except the denial of the Holy Spirit, which is the willingly denial of God.)

And also entrusting Jesus your life and asking forgiveness is also not always going to get you into heaven, do you not agree. To trust in Christ and ask for forgiveness is not enough if you do not quit the sin and live your life according to his commands. He said to do more then have mere trust in him, did he not.

Did he not say be Baptised.
Eat my Body and Blood.
Confess your sins, but then GO and SIN NO MORE.
Honor your Father and MOther.
Lets just say the rest of the Ten commands.

We must go to Church, Love one another. There is quite a bit more then trusting in his Love and confessing our sins. Much much more. To trust in Christ is easy, and to confess is not that hard. But to live your live to become perfect as Christ was Perfect now that is what is hard to do. And we cannot enter heaven until we have become clean and good like him.

And yes Baptism is for the forgiveness of Sins, but what about afterwards. What if you continue to sin? What is you confess but then continue to live the same way? Are you saved then?

 

[rinnie]

To be perfectly honest, I don’t know much about Early Christian historical records…
So, I can’t answer this question.
Maybe this has to do with the “insidious apostasy” claimed by some Protestant denominations?

Maybe in the Early Christian times purgatory and praying for the dead did in fact not exist, and it was “invented” later on in the Middle Ages. Because also from there we don’t have many historic records as well.

Now please answer my question!

Then if this is an early invention why did Jesus not reject it then? Why did he Preach to the spirits in prison? What for? Also why did Zech 9:11 state the God through his blood of his covenant will set those free from the bottomless pit, a SPIRITUAL ABODE OF SUFFERING? And is that not exactly what Jesus did? Right after his death on the Cross. Did he not free these People?

While I agree Luther had problems with this, and removed Maccabees from the bible, does not mean it does not exist. We follow the Church that was here long before Luther, as the word of God which the book itself say to follow the CHURCH. And the Church has always accepted this teaching. So tell me do you follow Luther because he rejected this book, or the Church which has always accepted it. Something you really need to think about.

Again what came first the Catholic Bible accepted by the Church? Did the Church study Luther’s teaching’s or did Luther study the teaching’s of the Church???

 

[PJM]

=Esdra;7605380]No, of course not. Unless, of course, he/she willingly rejects Jesus i.e. by a “non-Christian” lifestyle without repenting.

Salvation does not depend upon a specific denomination. When you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour and are living a Christian life, then you are saved.
Theoretically, you would not even need to go to a specific denomination after your “conversion”. But it’s of course highly recommended because the brothers and sisters in Christ will help to grow spiritually, to get to know Jesus always better and to become more and more like Him. Also the conversed person can help the others on that journey.

A brethern in Christ once told me: He was evangelizing in Switzerland and a girl then enthrusted Jesus her life and became a Pentecostal (Every Nation).
Later on then she went back to the CC and went to a monastery. (Became a nun.)
My brethern then asked her why she did so and she answered, "That’s the best thing I could ever have done! The whole people in the monastery now have accepted Jesus as their Saviour and are “faithful” [That’s the term they use, if you have accepted Jesus as your Saviour!]. This monastery now is part of the Charismatic Renewal.

So my friend; these passages areintended to be meaninless?

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

****Rom.2: 13 “****For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

**Rom. 3: 28 **For we hold that a man is justified by faith **apart from works of law. ** OT additions to the Comandments. PJM

**Eph.1 :13 to 14 ** “In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

**Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

**Matt.19: 17 “**And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Looking forward to your understanding of these…

 

[Anna_Scott]

You are interpreting symbolic and figurative to mean non-existant.

GaryTaylor,

I didn’t say or intend to imply that I believe Hell is non-existent. I believe it exists.

Children grow much faster and comprehend much more than we give them credit for, or would like to believe. The idea with children is to have an open honest relationship based on trust and love. Problem with adults is they want to control the children and can’t control themself. I have teenager here.

What are you suggesting we teach our children? I grew up in the Baptist Church and “Christianity” was all about Hell–unimaginable, physical, eternal burning in flames of real fire for all eternity. I grew up absolutely terrified of such a fate; and still can’t quite shake it.

When the Pope states “not a punishment imposed externally by God” He is simply stating here, that you are the “Driver of the Car”. You will determine your own fate through Free-Will. He is not saying Biblical interpretation in the Gospel is not correct. He is saying that one must not allow their imagination to run away with themself and create a prepetual state of despair in worry about hell. And I agree. But lets also call a Spade a Spade.

I agree that we have free will, and that free will includes rejecting God. I didn’t say Pope John Paul II said or implied the “Biblical interpretation in the Gospel is not correct." Specifically, what do you mean by “lets also call a Spade a Spade”?

Part of the approval process of Marion Apparitions is evaluation of the content of the revelations themselves, so that they do not disagree with faith and morals of the Church, and have freedom from theological errors. They will also pertain to the salvation of a soul or souls. All of which in fatima is correct.

I’m not disputing the authenticity of the Fatima vision, nor am I disputing the words of Pope John Paul II. I’m just trying to understand how they fit together.

The case with Fatima, this isn’t figurative or symbolism, its a window opened in “Real Time” when the supernatural entered into our time. This coincides with Scripture and that which is already known to exist. Also confirmed by the children. What makes Fatima significant is their Visions were not Lucid Dreams or Hazy. Cloudy Lights. The Blessed Mother and Christ appeared “in person” not once but several times. Then a dated, scheduled, Miracle from God, confirmed the message’s with 70-thousand witness’s.

Your comment above is a bit confusing. If Fatima was not “figurative or symbolic,” but a vision into a window in real time; that would mean people are literally burning. Would it not? This seems to contradict your statement, quoted below, about fire being “symbolic of hell.” Would you clarify?

Fire relates to hell so it is therefore symbolic of hell. With figurative, He is speaking in a Literal, Figurative sense. Which also coincides with Bible and Fatima. . Symbolism in literature is a mechanism through which specific words are used to provide meaning. This coincides with Scripture also.

Eternal damnation is mentioned 4X by Pope JPII, I’m not sure what you “think” that may mean? The fact that JPII didn’t mention the Fire, doesn’t remove the fact that Benedict XVI does mention the Inferno, and the Seers of Fatima certainly saw what they explained to be the Internal Inferno. . . . .

Pope John Paul II did mention “fire.”

**HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY
Pope John Paul II

Hell is the State of Those who Reject God**

". . . . . .Redemption nevertheless remains an offer of salvation which it is up to people to accept freely. This is why they will all be judged “by what they [have done]” (Rv 20:13). By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will “weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its **“unquenchable fire” **(Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk. 16:19-3 1).

The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a “pool of fire” those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a “second death” (Rv. 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9). . . . ."

The fact that both JPII and Benedict are very quick to point out “They are not Mystics” should also give a clue they are speaking from what they “heard and read”.

Two of the Seers are Blessed, the Third was the “main Seer” of Fatima and the most significant to come along in centurys. She was a Mystic. Honestly do you think they made that up?

Would you clarify your statements above? Are you saying the teachings of Pope John Paul II are not authoritative, because he is not a Mystic? Again, I am not denying the visions of Fatima.

At the end of the day the object is not to scare the heck out of the world. But its also not to downplay the consequence of our actions or existing reality.

This is “my opinion” you entitled to reject it. many out here seem to think hell is a figment of someone’s imagination.

My intention is not to downplay the consequence of our actions, nor to claim that hell is a “figment of someone’s imagination.” Not sure how you got that from my post.

I would just like you to explain what the vision of Fatima means, and how the vision fits with the teaching of Pope John Paul II.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esdra
To be perfectly honest, I don’t know much about Early Christian historical records…
So, I can’t answer this question.

So you cannot refute purgatory from history?

Maybe this has to do with the “insidious apostasy” claimed by some Protestant denominations?

Which begs the question: Documents and sources when this ‘insidious apostasy’ occured?

Maybe in the Early Christian times purgatory and praying for the dead did in fact not exist, and it was “invented” later on in the Middle Ages. Because also from there we don’t have many historic records as well.

Wrong! Assumptions and conjecture will not debunk it. I asked you,if it were invented where are the records showing all the protests? Where are the writings of the ECF’s attacking it for being invented as a doctrine?

Now please answer my question!

Ask again, I forgot.

 

[rinnie]

Then if this is an early invention why did Jesus not reject it then? Why did he Preach to the spirits in prison? What for? Also why did Zech 9:11 state the God through his blood of his covenant will set those free from the bottomless pit, a SPIRITUAL ABODE OF SUFFERING? And is that not exactly what Jesus did? Right after his death on the Cross. Did he not free these People?

While I agree Luther had problems with this, and removed Maccabees from the bible, does not mean it does not exist. We follow the Church that was here long before Luther, as the word of God which the book itself say to follow the CHURCH. And the Church has always accepted this teaching. So tell me do you follow Luther because he rejected this book, or the Church which has always accepted it. Something you really need to think about.

Again what came first the Catholic Bible accepted by the Church? Did the Church study Luther’s teaching’s or did Luther study the teaching’s of the Church???

Come on Esdra buddy give me something! You have to have something to say!!

 

[Esdra]

So you cannot refute purgatory from history?

No, I am not a scholar and at the moment I don’t have the intend to study Ancient History to prove that purgatory was an medieval invention…

Which begs the question: Documents and sources when this ‘insidious apostasy’ occured?

See above.

Wrong! Assumptions and conjecture will not debunk it. I asked you,if it were invented where are the records showing all the protests? Where are the writings of the ECF’s attacking it for being invented as a doctrine?

I have not studied the ECF!! By the way: How do we know that not some of the ECFs scriptures were lost and there are/were indeed letters that protest against purgatory as it was an invention?!
Maybe one should have a look in the archives of the Vatican. I beg that there are quite many so called heretic documents that could “prove” that the CC has gone into apostasy over the years.

Ask again, I forgot.

You haven’t answered my question concerning the “third heaven”.
2 Cor 12:2, " 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. "
Please tell me the names of the “three heavens”. Because I only count two: Heaven and Purgatory.
So, actually, the second heaven is missing!
[This strongly reminds of the Glories in the LDS Church: Celestial Glory, Terrestial Glory and Telestial Glory. - There are three. Compare Doctrine and Covenants 76”]D&C 76

)

 

[Esdra]

Then if this is an early invention why did Jesus not reject it then? Why did he Preach to the spirits in prison? What for? Also why did Zech 9:11 state that God through his blood of his covenant will set those free from the bottomless pit, a SPIRITUAL ABODE OF SUFFERING? And is that not exactly what Jesus did? Right after his death on the Cross. Did he not free these People?

While I agree Luther had problems with this, and removed Maccabees from the bible, does not mean it does not exist. We follow the Church that was here long before Luther, as the word of God which the book itself say to follow the CHURCH. And the Church has always accepted this teaching. So tell me do you follow Luther because he rejected this book, or the Church which has always accepted it. Something you really need to think about.

Luther didn’t remove anything, neither did he reject any book of the Bible. He just put the deuterocanonical Books in the “Appendix” and didn’t put it into the “appropriate places” (from the Catholic perspective). - Similar to St. Jerome in his Vulgate!
He didn’t remove anything but, in fact, even added the “Prayer of Manasseh”.
As far as I know the Lutherans use up to the present day the Holy Bible WITH THE APOCRYPHA (Luther’s Translation).
The removing only started later. There are quite interesting threads here on CAF, concerning the removing of the “Apocrypha” from the KJV i.e… Have a look at them!

Again what came first the Catholic Bible accepted by the Church? Did the Church study Luther’s teaching’s or did Luther study the teaching’s of the Church???

Luther studied the Church teaching’s and he reformed the Church as it has gone most certainly into apostasy, especially when you have a look at Luther’s time the 16th century.
No Bible for private study. The people were told that they wouldn’t understand the Holy Bible anyway. - Only a priest does. The selling of indulgences etc…

Come on Esdra buddy give me something! You have to have something to say!!

This topic is too hot for me. I can’t answer these questions. - And also won’t.
I simply believe that there is no purgatory, as the Baptist’s teach and dot.

 

[benidict]

Read post 128 It explains the final purification. Also where is the scripture that offers this guaranteed ticket, I would love to purchase one. As far as accepting Christ as you personal Savior, that just won’t cut it. The Lord left us many of things we must do besides believe in him. Could you show me the scripture that gives us that guaranteed ticket? Again Can’t wait to see that scriputure

The only 2 guarentees we have are…Death and Taxes No guaranteed ticket to heaven. The teaching of OSAS really is in conflict with alot of scripture that says otherwise. Purgatory, is older than Christianity. Read the Writings in Josephus and you will see he speaks of it, in his appendixes. This was shortly after the events of the Cross, so apparently this teaching was in circulation among the Jews. We also have writings in the talmud dealing with this issue. Peace

 

[rinnie]

Luther didn’t remove anything, neither did he reject any book of the Bible. He just put the deuterocanonical Books in the “Appendix” and didn’t put it into the “appropriate places” (from the Catholic perspective). - Similar to St. Jerome in his Vulgate!
He didn’t remove anything but, in fact, even added the “Prayer of Manasseh”.
As far as I know the Lutherans use up to the present day the Holy Bible WITH THE APOCRYPHA (Luther’s Translation).
The removing only started later. There are quite interesting threads here on CAF, concerning the removing of the “Apocrypha” from the KJV i.e… Have a look at them!

Again what came first the Catholic Bible accepted by the Church? Did the Church study Luther’s teaching’s or did Luther study the teaching’s of the Church???

Luther studied the Church teaching’s and he reformed the Church as it has gone most certainly into apostasy, especially when you have a look at Luther’s time the 16th century.
No Bible for private study. The people were told that they wouldn’t understand the Holy Bible anyway. - Only a priest does. The selling of indulgences etc…

This topic is too hot for me. I can’t answer these questions. - And also won’t.
I simply believe that there is no purgatory, as the Baptist’s teach and dot.

Oh Esdra then we are in big trouble. Because if the CC went into apostasy then you are going to have to explain to me these words. The gates of hell will not prevail, I will be with you until the end of time. Are you saying that Jesus lied to us, and the gates of hell did indeed prevail. Because you cannot have it both ways, Either Jesus told us the truth and the Holy Spirit would not fail the Church, or the Holy Spirit failed? Whats it gonna be Esdra?

Also Luther did not reform the Church, if he did what exactly did he change in the teachings of the CC? Luther had no right to change the word of God and the promise the Pope that was given to Christ is that he will always guard the church with the keys to the kingdom here on earth. I do not see where the Pope ever let Luther come in and reform our Church, Could you show me history where this was done.

If Luther reformed the Church why are we separated in our belief? Why did the people that left the CC not called Catholic’s anymore but called Protestants. You know protesting the teaching’s of the CC. Could you show me what teaching of Christ that luther changed? That would be a great start.

And you are correct about the people not understanding the bible anyway. It is still that way today. If the Church were wrong and Luther were right, why do you and I not agree completely on the scripture. Or are you saying that the Holy Spriit gives different truths, and there are more then ONE TRUTH the way we are taught. According to scripture we do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture. Could you show me where we are taught by the word of God that we have this knowledge?

And where did the CC every say that only a Priest can study and understand Scripture. That is another lie that is being said about the CC. The CC has only said that you cannot study scripture without learning the O.T. and the N.T and keep in within context. Anyone can study the teaching of the CC without being a Priest or even Catholic for that fact. Just stick with the teachings of the Early Fathers of the Church the way the bible tells us. Where did you get that information anyway. Could you show your source.

Actually the Pope recommends that everyone study the word of God in the Context that was taught by his Apostles. That is actually how the majority of People become Catholic. Simply because they study for themselves and cannot turn away from the truth any longer.

 

[rinnie]

The only 2 guarentees we have are…Death and Taxes No guaranteed ticket to heaven. The teaching of OSAS really is in conflict with alot of scripture that says otherwise. Purgatory, is older than Christianity. Read the Writings in Josephus and you will see he speaks of it, in his appendixes. This was shortly after the events of the Cross, so apparently this teaching was in circulation among the Jews. We also have writings in the talmud dealing with this issue. Peace

Yeah, and I am not sure what is worse death or taxes The only guarantee that I guess you could say that we have to get into heaven, is simply God’s Mercy. We can only pray that he will have great mercy on us.

But we actually do have the Sacraments. They are a great guarantee to help us. We have the promise from God that we can be forgiven here on earth of our sins if we go to confession and confess our sins. That is why we should all take that promise from Christ and go as often as possible. That is one thing I am going to try to take advantage of more this year.My problem is in our Church it is small and we have One Priest, and my Husband and I are pretty close to him, And I know it sounds stupid but I hate to confess to him, I don’t know why, So I go to another Church for confession. Dumb Huh:shrug:

One other point I believe is worth mentioning is the Eucharist. Its a pretty good guarantee to help us, because every time we pray, and receive the Body and Blood of Christ we get mroe grace that can give us power to fight evil and sin. So thats a strong one.

God bless you on the Lenten Season. May we all pray more, fast more, and sin less.

 

[rinnie]

Luther didn’t remove anything, neither did he reject any book of the Bible. He just put the deuterocanonical Books in the “Appendix” and didn’t put it into the “appropriate places” (from the Catholic perspective). - Similar to St. Jerome in his Vulgate!
He didn’t remove anything but, in fact, even added the “Prayer of Manasseh”.
As far as I know the Lutherans use up to the present day the Holy Bible WITH THE APOCRYPHA (Luther’s Translation).
The removing only started later. There are quite interesting threads here on CAF, concerning the removing of the “Apocrypha” from the KJV i.e… Have a look at them!

Again what came first the Catholic Bible accepted by the Church? Did the Church study Luther’s teaching’s or did Luther study the teaching’s of the Church???

Luther studied the Church teaching’s and he reformed the Church as it has gone most certainly into apostasy, especially when you have a look at Luther’s time the 16th century.
No Bible for private study. The people were told that they wouldn’t understand the Holy Bible anyway. - Only a priest does. The selling of indulgences etc…

This topic is too hot for me. I can’t answer these questions. - And also won’t.
I simply believe that there is no purgatory, as the Baptist’s teach and dot.

You are correct on one thing Esdra Luther did not remove the books, but he did move them to try to give them less meaning. But he still had a reason for that would you not agree? I mean what is really the difference. he tried to demean them would you not agree?

Or do you think it was just a coincidence that they seem to differ from his teachings. And said actually the opposite.

And do you not agree that by moving them he made his point?

Also you claim he did not reject any book, then why did he disagree with the teaching? Would not agree with a teaching be the same as rejecting it, if you try to ignore it and teach your take on something? Is that not what the main point of him leaving the Church about? Because the Pope and Bishops would not agree with what he taught, because it was in direct conflict with the word of God.

As far as the indulgences that has nothing to do with the word of God or demeaning the books. The indulgences still exist in the CC today. Do you think that they are gone. Because guess what, They are not gone. We can acquire indulgences by prayers for the living and the dead, I pray for my Bro and Father all the time. Actually I believe the Stations of the Cross is considered an indulgence and I offer every Friday from this Friday until the end of lent up to them.

It was the selling of indulgences that we cannot do anymore. But it is actually a shame because there was alot of good in them. But like all things a few ruin a good thing for many.

 

[JackyB]

Would this apply to the discussion, not sure if it has been mentioned I read only some responses. With regards to the robbers being crucified next to Jesus, he said only to the one, ‘today you will be with me in paradise’ .

 

[rinnie]

Would this apply to the discussion, not sure if it has been mentioned I read only some responses. With regards to the robbers being crucified next to Jesus, he said only to the one, ‘today you will be with me in paradise’ .

Yes Jacky it could. Because paradise was not heaven at that time. Paradise was where the souls were held to be given their judgement from Christ.

Only the righteous can go to Purgatory. But being righteous does not mean that we do not have to have the final purification.

Paradise is proof that there was a middle place, it was not heaven, we know this because Jesus did not open heaven yet, and it was not hell. because the rich man was not with them.

The word of God has never said that all souls will go directly to heaven or hell at the time of Judgement. It just says at our death we will have our final judgement. And some souls will need to be cleansed to be made worthy of heaven. Where would the final cleansing be done. Because if you go directly to heaven, you would be unclean, and nothing unclean shall enter heaven. And if you are deemed unworthy you will not be given a final cleansing.

 

[PJM]

FRIENDS consider this point of view:

Ayone who denies hell cannot be a Christian? Why.

1. Becuause Christ often spoke of it’s reality; and to deny Christ Word IS, IS, Denial of God [the One unforgivable sin]
2. It denies God’s ncessary Justice [a Perfect God cannot be unjust]
3. It denies why of ALL Created THINGS in the Entire Universe; Only one; humanity has a Mind, Intellct; FREEWILL and Soul.
4. Holding this position deprives humanity of there RIGHT to chose where thy are going to spend Eternity.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
So you cannot refute purgatory from history?

No, I am not a scholar and at the moment I don’t have the intend to study Ancient History to prove that purgatory was an medieval invention…

Do not have to be a scholar. I am telling you right now,all Protestants who have told me it is an ‘invention’ has yet to prove me wrong. I want to read the ancient sources clearly showing it is a late invention. I asked the same question when I was in high school over 20 years ago and still no proof.

Quote:
Which begs the question: Documents and sources when this ‘insidious apostasy’ occured?

See above.

Likewise,read the above.

Quote:
Wrong! Assumptions and conjecture will not debunk it. I asked you,if it were invented where are the records showing all the protests? Where are the writings of the ECF’s attacking it for being invented as a doctrine?

I have not studied the ECF!! By the way: How do we know that not some of the ECFs scriptures were lost and there are/were indeed letters that protest against purgatory as it was an invention?!

Which means you must prove such a charge. Are you capable of proving some ECF’s writings were lost in where they condemned a late invention? BTW: Purgatory is a Jewish belief long before Christianity,so your task would be to prove it was invented by the Jews,not the Catholic Church. Your charge borders the Mormon belief of The Great Apostasy.

Maybe one should have a look in the archives of the Vatican. I beg that there are quite many so called heretic documents that could “prove” that the CC has gone into apostasy over the years.

Really? They can prove the CC has gone into Apostasy? How ironic,but Purgatory has yet to be debunked as an invention? By the way,if the CC went apostate,then why are you reading the Bible canonized by a so-called Apostate Church?

Quote:
Ask again, I forgot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esdra

You haven’t answered my question concerning the “third heaven”.
2 Cor 12:2, " 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. "
Please tell me the names of the “three heavens”. Because I only count two: Heaven and Purgatory.
So, actually, the second heaven is missing!
[This strongly reminds of the Glories in the LDS Church: Celestial Glory, Terrestial Glory and Telestial Glory. - There are three. Compare D&C 76)

The third heaven . . . Paradise: ancient cosmologies depicted a multitiered universe. Jewish intertestamental literature contains much speculation about the number of heavens. Seven is the number usually mentioned, but the Testament of Levi (2:7-10; 3:1-4) speaks of three; God himself dwelt in the third of these. Without giving us any clear picture of the cosmos, Paul indicates a mental journey to a nonearthly space, set apart by God, in which secrets were revealed to him. Ineffable things: i.e., privileged knowledge, which it was not possible or permitted to divulge.
[/quote]