The Devil is in the Catholic Church

[St_Gabriel]

He sure is. But I don’t let it bother me. He’s also in many different threads.

 

[contramundum7]

I
Family sizes are smaller for real world reasons as you say, but it comes down to being able to raise a family at a size you can support economically and emotionally. 1-3 children are manageable (for most) and anything bigger is hard to balance in today’s world.

Some people just convince themselves they can’t have many children… when really they want tokeep up w/ the Joneses… They think if they don’t have this orthat, they aren’t living well enough…

 

[contramundum7]

He sure is. But I don’t let it bother me. He’s also in many different threads.

No kidding!!!

 

[contramundum7]

Granted that there are people (much less Catholics) who use contraception, the devil shouldn’t be blamed for everything. Remember that there is free will. These people are either “less-educated” or “ignorant” about what the mother church teaches. Some outright reject the teachings of the church out of “choice.”

Well, i don’t think the Post ignores free will… just acknowledges that the devil influences our free will… and he is so subtle, most people don’t have a clue they are being deceived… When "everyone else is doing [something], it makes it so much easier to rationalize…

And I don’t mean that the devil’s off the hook either. He’s out to crush the faithful by any means possible. He’s out to fight and take no prisoners but

Amen to that…

you just can’t blame him for everything. It would be too easy to blame him for everything… and perhaps that’s what he wants, for us to take the easy route.

That’s exactly what he wants and that’s what he usually gets (from all i have seen in life, heard from Scripture, etc…) not many will make it… Sad but true…

 

[stbruno]

Natural Family Planning teaches you the natural, not chemical ways to space your families…and that is not considered contraception at all. It is just planning your family as nature intended it. You can decide with the help of learning about how a woman’s body cycle works to have a large or smaller number of children, as long as you are always open to life.

The definition of contraception is the intentional prevention of conception or impregnation through the use of various devices, agents, drugs, or surgical procedures/

 

[SeekerJen]

Go read the Infertility thread and see if perhaps you can stop lumping all childless Catholics or those with small families into the “devil” category. At least half of the couples I know have had trouble conceiving children.

I’m glad your fertility is perfectly intact. Please have an ounce of compassion for those of us not so blessed.

 

[bluerose]

Have been open to life for almost twenty years and have been blessed with one son (he’s thirteen) through adoption.

Since he doesn’t wear a t-shirt saying “My parents adopted me because they couldn’t conceive” all the time, I’m sure it raises some eyebrows when others see us with the rest of our devoutly Catholic family members… especially the brother with 11 kids.

For that reason, I’m willing to give a lot of couples with one or two kids the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Jared123]

The devil has been trying to destroy the Church since Day One. One way he does this is to try to decrease the number of Catholics and one way of doing that is thorugh contraception. Why are so many Catholics contracepting and having such small families these days?
A lot of Catholics are so worldly - they just seem to live like everyone else… (materialistic, etc…).
The devil is “protestan-tizing” the Catholic Church…
Do you agree?? Would like to hear testimonies… etc…

I will give you my two cents on the matter for what it’s worth. The devil has been trying to destroy the Church since day one by all different types of sin. Contraception is just one more tool of devil as is pornography, and many others. I wouldn’t put the devil and protestants in the same category as you did above. I have seen many Protestants that are way more zealous for Christ than some Catholics.
Why are Catholics limiting the size of their families. There are many reason some are vaild but most aren’t. Children take money, time, and effort to raise. We live in a culture that puts more emphasis on having a $500,000 house, driving a Hummer, and vacationing in Hawaii than having children.
I am 36 years old and my wife just had our first child 6 months ago after having a miscarriage the first time she was pregnant. We just found out that she is pregnant again. I am happy as a lark, but have been very anoid with the way many people have received this news. Most people have said things such as “don’t you know how this happens”, or don’t you want to space your children out more than that, or you better watch out or you will have 5 children." My answer to all these people is that I couldn’t be happier. We want as many children as God will bless of with. My wife will be quiting her job after the second child is born to be a stay at home mom, and to of course to have more children.

 

[distracted]

Well, i believe children come before material “advantage”… I believe women with young children should not work full time. I think they should wait until their children are in school to work, or at least until they are about 4 years old… I belive it is better to live in poverty (so called) than to have two incomes just so that children can have this or t hat THING. THings are just things… Children need their parent’s (especially) mother’s time & attention, not expensive toys…
Children are the closest thing to God one can find in this world… (they can act like “demons” sometimes, but that’s just because they don’t know better and have to be taught… not to be selfish, not to hit their siblings, etc…).
Anyway, i know a lot of people don’t want to hear all this. But I feel that my position is the one God prefers…

 

[distracted]

While I agree that contraception is brought about by the devil…
I think many on this thread on simplifying the issue.

I believe you are doing the same thing - simplifying… Besides, its hard NOT to “simplify” when you only have so much space and so much time…

making blanket statements is, in itself, non-catholic.
By definition “catholic” means “universal”… which implies ALL DIFFERENT types of families and circumstances in which we can ALL live in union with the church.

Universal Church means that the “rules” emanating therefrom apply universally, to everyone…
I resent your implication that anyone who thinks contraception and/or family size limiting is “simple minded”… and worse, that it is un-Catholic. It is un-Catholic to not have as many children as you can… But people nowadays seem to just do whatever their Protestant neighbors do…

Some are called to have large families, some are called to have smaller families and make more money so that they can in turn financially serve the poor in the world.

Sounds like an excuse to me…

 

[distracted]

I wouldn’t put the devil and protestants in the same category as you did above.

I don’t feel i put Protestants in the same category w/ the devil. Protestantizing is not saying anything against Protestants… it is saying something about how a lot of our Catholic Churches are trying to be more like Protestant ones. I feel t hat Protestants, some whether they realize it fully or not, are looking for the old Catholic Church… They are definitely looking for something, and that something is Christ… And the “old” ways are, in my estimation, more Catholic, more Christ-like than the "new ways… Of course, that depends on her definition of the aforementioned terms (Old, New…)… That is one reason we should not modernIze the Church…
i have to go… or would elaborate…

 

[Em_in_FL]

I believe you are doing the same thing - simplifying… Besides, its hard NOT to “simplify” when you only have so much space and so much time… Universal Church means that the “rules” emanating therefrom apply universally, to everyone…

Exactly what do you claim that the “rules” of the Church are?
The catechism clearly explains that using NFP is within the teachings of the church.

I resent your implication that anyone who thinks contraception and/or family size limiting is “simple minded”… and worse, that it is un-Catholic.

I did not imply that in the least. Read my post.

It is un-Catholic to not have as many children as you can… But people nowadays seem to just do whatever their Protestant neighbors do…

Are you implying that small families aren’t Catholic?
Please clarify.

Sounds like an excuse to me…

WOW.

 

[mrsfrazier]

The devil has been trying to destroy the Church since Day One. One way he does this is to try to decrease the number of Catholics and one way of doing that is thorugh contraception. Why are so many Catholics contracepting and having such small families these days?
A lot of Catholics are so worldly - they just seem to live like everyone else… (materialistic, etc…).
The devil is “protestan-tizing” the Catholic Church…
Do you agree?? Would like to hear testimonies… etc…

This contains so many generalizations! There are as many different types of Catholics as there are people. Everyone is in a different place in their journey with God.

Do you feel that Church doctrine and teaching is becoming more protestant, or just the way people live their faith?

 

[mrsfrazier]

Well, i believe children come before material “advantage”…

Making ends meet and putting food on the table is not catering to material “advantage”.

I believe women with young children should not work full time. I think they should wait until their children are in school to work, or at least until they are about 4 years old…

That’s nice that you believe that, but the Church doesn’t teach that. How do you propose that single moms stay home–many of them don’t have a choice but to work. What about families living on minimum wage? They probably need both parents to work in most cases.

I belive it is better to live in poverty (so called)

Your definition of poverty is your own. I think each person knows how much money they need to live, depending on their situation. Even groceries can be a huge expense for a large family

than to have two incomes just so that children can have this or t hat THING. THings are just things… Children need their parent’s (especially) mother’s time & attention, not expensive toys…

Many people need two incomes to pay for food, clothes, and housing. Not to mention try putting even one child through school these days without an expensive computer and software!

Children are the closest thing to God one can find in this world… (they can act like “demons” sometimes, but that’s just because they don’t know better and have to be taught… not to be selfish, not to hit their siblings, etc…).
Anyway, i know a lot of people don’t want to hear all this. But I feel that my position is the one God prefers…

**I’m sure God has a place in his heart for families who don’t fit into this narrow description. **

 

[Jared123]

I don’t feel i put Protestants in the same category w/ the devil. Protestantizing is not saying anything against Protestants… it is saying something about how a lot of our Catholic Churches are trying to be more like Protestant ones. I feel t hat Protestants, some whether they realize it fully or not, are looking for the old Catholic Church… They are definitely looking for something, and that something is Christ… And the “old” ways are, in my estimation, more Catholic, more Christ-like than the "new ways… Of course, that depends on her definition of the aforementioned terms (Old, New…)… That is one reason we should not modernIze the Church…
i have to go… or would elaborate…

You are exactly correct…keep the Church orthodox and it will flourish, water it down like most dioceses have and it will be just another Protestant looking Church with a Catholic name.
The diocese I live is extremely Orthodox. We don’t have alter girls (only diocese left that holds to this rule), we don’t have EMHC’s but rather male Acolytes, we have parish funded Catholic schools so the tutition is $500.00 a year for elementary school, and $1,000 a year for high School. This makes a Catholic education availiable to all Catholics, not just the rich. We have 52 young men currently in the seminary, 19 entered this year alone. We have seminarians from all over the country and Canada that come here because they are looking for orthodoxy.

 

[actorgirl]

I don’t understand the concept that if both parents are working that automatically means they MUST be living in excess…

Some families have to have two incomes. They don’t have flashy cars and jewels. They are not trying to keep up with the Jones. They are just trying to survive.

 

[sacredcello]

I don’t understand the concept that if both parents are working that automatically means they MUST be living in excess…

Some families have to have two incomes. They don’t have flashy cars and jewels. They are not trying to keep up with the Jones. They are just trying to survive.

Exactly.

My ex-husband was child number 5 out of 6 children and both of his parents had to work. There was nothing flashy about their lifestyle. There were multiple children per bedroom. His mother was frugal to an extreme just to have enough to pay bills and keep things running. The father’s line of work was not reliable and they had to move many times.

When ex-husband and I were married, DMIL took me aside and told me that she would not have had so many children, but that her cycle was irregular and she could not determine when she was fertile (I guess it was the rhythm method in those days as opposed to NFP). I’m still not sure exactly what she was trying to tell me, because she is a devout Catholic.

Consequently, my ex-husband felt and still does feel that he does not deserve to be alive, that his parents would have been better off if he had not been born even though, his parents have made many sacrifices for him.

God bless him, I still pray that he will come back to the Church. But, he feels unloved by God because of his upbringing.

 

[mrsfrazier]

You are exactly correct…keep the Church orthodox and it will flourish, water it down like most dioceses have and it will be just another Protestant looking Church with a Catholic name.
The diocese I live is extremely Orthodox. We don’t have alter girls (only diocese left that holds to this rule), we don’t have EMHC’s but rather male Acolytes, we have parish funded Catholic schools so the tutition is $500.00 a year for elementary school, and $1,000 a year for high School. This makes a Catholic education availiable to all Catholics, not just the rich. We have 52 young men currently in the seminary, 19 entered this year alone. We have seminarians from all over the country and Canada that come here because they are looking for orthodoxy.

This is ridiculous! Since when does the Catholic Church endorse women being second class people?! I wouldn’t describe a diocese as particularly orthodox ordevout just b/c they don’t allow female alter servers. sheesh…

 

[Jared123]

I don’t understand the concept that if both parents are working that automatically means they MUST be living in excess…

Some families have to have two incomes. They don’t have flashy cars and jewels. They are not trying to keep up with the Jones. They are just trying to survive.

I’m sure this is the case for some, but isn’t the norm. Being a total stay at home mother is very difficult and I would even go as far as saying its more difficult than working. I think most mothers would rather work than stay at home. I can think of several examples of this. My ex-wife tried to stay at home with 3 children…this lasted for two years. She finally said “I can’t handle this, I’m going back to work. I can have some adult interaction” and of course she wanted more money. My sister in-law did the same thing. Tried staying at home, but couldn’t handle it she went back to work…he famous line was “I have to get away from my kids or else I will go crazy.”
I think for some saying they don’t have enough money is a good excuse to get away from there kids because they can’t handle it.
On the flip side I know couple in our home town that make huge sacrafices so that they mother can raise their children not a daycare provider. I know of a couple that has 6 children and lives off of a teacher income, and in the state of Nebraska we are talking not more than $40,000. I know of another couple that has four children and lives off of one salary. He works at a packing plant and makes no more than $35,000. Living on one salary can be done, its just that the average Amercian isn’t going to cut coupons, buy thrift shop clothes, and drive old cars. Todays cultures isn’t like what my parents grew up in. It was the standard for the women to stay at home raise the children. They also grew up with little money. I will ask all of you, during which times was our country morally healthier, now or back in the 1950’s?

 

[Em_in_FL]

I think most mothers would rather work than stay at home. I can think of several examples of this.

Okay… you’ve got two examples…

Why don’t you come visit my office? I don’t know of ONE of the working mothers here (10 women off the top of my head… maybe more?) who hasn’t mentioned to me that they’d rather be home with their kids.

So I beg to differ.