The Devil is in the Catholic Church

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I do not think the two can be directly related? The two issues of family size and contraception do not go together.

Family sizes are smaller for real world reasons as you say, but it comes down to being able to raise a family at a size you can support economically and emotionally. 1-3 children are manageable (for most) and anything bigger is hard to balance in today’s world.

I don’t think that’s any truer now than it was decades ago. You teach the older ones to help take care of the younger ones, and that never hurt a soul.

And also you do without $200 sneakers.

 

[maria29]

I don’t think that’s any truer now than it was decades ago. You teach the older ones to help take care of the younger ones, and that never hurt a soul.

And also you do without $200 sneakers.

I know many working moms and none are working towards 200 dollars sneakers. While there are some people who do these I find that the vast majority of working middle class (with both parents working) are working to just meet the bare essentials that provide for the family.

Again we as Catholics and parents have a moral obligation to be able to provide food, clothing and shelter for the children we have and to make sure we can provide for any child in the future (again I don’t mean extras, like college, vacations, extracurricular activities etc ).

For those of you who think moving is the answer, we have family who moved across country doing it cheaply as possible and it still cost them almost $6,000.

 

[maria29]

Great school, my wife graduated from there with a theology degree, and my father inlaw teachers there. I know a person who teaches theology for the Archdiocese of Omaha at a Catholic High School and his wife stays at home. I believe they have 4-5 children. He graduated from the University of Dallas. Its tough but they find some way to do it.

Does he have $1700 worth of debt a month to pay? If not then, there is the answer.

 

[sacredcello]

Here is another thought about “The Devil is in the Catholic Church” and having the resources to raise a large family:

How many folks out there give God the first tenth of your income (tithe)? Not that it is a magical formula for success and blessings, but it is recommended by Philip Lenahan who wrote The Catholic Answers Guide to Family Finances. Of course, he acknowledges that the Church does not require us to do this, but he gives biblical support and many of his clients’ success stories. All of them were middle to lower middle class.

Well, it hasn’t solved all of my problems or wiped out my debt, but I have found that I always have enough. I plan to continue this habit once I am married and have children.

I can’t help wondering if the reason my ex-husband’s family struggled so much with 6 children (the mom had to work – and there were definitely not any $200 sneakers!), is because they were told by the Church that they did not need to bother with tithing.

Perhaps this is how the Devil is robbing Catholics of their blessings?

 

[11kids4me]

We have four and are poor as Church mice. We unexpectingly had twins. The Lord provides for us though. And how do you not think that contraception and family size are not related? Contraception directly limits family size. That is what it is for. Tim

God love you, Tim. I can completely relate to having many children and experiencing poverty at different times in my life. I believe that God allows these trials in our life because He knows what’s best for our salvation. I will keep you and your family in my prayers.

As far as contraception is concerned, I think that the folks who choose to use it, do not fully trust God at that particular point in their life. God knows what is best for us and it is up to us to come to that realization. It is very hard to do that sometimes because when God is asking us to submit to His will, as in trusting Him with how many children He wishes to give us, there begins the battle. The devil wants us to exercise our own will and not submit to God’s will. The devil makes us believe that we will not be able to handle it.

Well, speaking from experience, it has definately been a huge challenge, but it has been and still is well worth the fight.

 

[contramundum7]

Natural Family Planning teaches you the natural, not chemical ways to space your families…and that is not considered contraception at all.

True…

You can decide with the help of learning about how a woman’s body cycle works to have a large or smaller number of children, as long as you are always open to life.

I believe its a sin to, say, make $50,000 a year and only have one or two children, whether you use NFP or contraception, though obviusly, the latter method is more sinful than the former…

 

[sacredcello]

True…
I believe its a sin to, say, make $50,000 a year and only have one or two children, whether you use NFP or contraception, though obviusly, the latter method is more sinful than the former…

That’s not what the Church teaches.

It also depends where you live. Read my post above about my brother who makes about $50,000 a year and was unable to be approved for a mortgage for even a small 1 bedroom condo as a single person. Now that he has a wife who works, they will qualify…they are in the process of searching.

Where would you have the children sleep – on the floor in the living room?

 

[sacredcello]

True…
I believe its a sin to, say, make $50,000 a year and only have one or two children, whether you use NFP or contraception, though obviusly, the latter method is more sinful than the former…

So, the Holy Family of Nazareth was sinful?

 

[SeekerJen]

True…
I believe its a sin to, say, make $50,000 a year and only have one or two children, whether you use NFP or contraception, though obviusly, the latter method is more sinful than the former…

Well, since you don’t make up the Canon of Church Law, you don’t get to decide if it’s sinful or not.

 

[maria29]

True…
I believe its a sin to, say, make $50,000 a year and only have one or two children, whether you use NFP or contraception, though obviusly, the latter method is more sinful than the former…

Nowhere does the Church say this. Just because one makes $50,000 a year doesn’t make one wealthy. What if they live somewhere where housing costs are $300,000 a year?

 

[Mari]

To those of you who are comparing the Holy Family to the small families of today, and believe that God would have called Mary and Joseph to produce offspring if He wanted big families, please consider this. The Holy Family was a small family because Mary was a perpetual virgin, not because they were poor, simple people. She and Joseph lived a chaste life within their marriage. There were no marital sexual relations. They did not have 1 child because economically they could not afford to have more. In fact, Mary participated, as mothers and fathers do, in giving life. She gave us, through her participation with the Creator, the Giver of Life. I would think that if God didn’t want her to be a perpetual virgin, then she would have bore as many children (as much life) as God would have asked her to. Mary and Joseph are a perfect example of the holiness of marital chastity and the sacrifice God may call some of us to. Large families, small families and infertile couples are all called to sacrifice in many different ways.

Small families are in alignment with God’s will when there are serious and just reasons for having a small number of children, spacing children or postponing pregnancy for a period of time. The couple must discern and pray before making a decision to limit the size of their family. And they must continue to be open to life. Children, if this is God’s plan in one’s life, are a supreme blessing. We must never judge a person/family/couple by how many children they do or do not have. Each has an individual situation they are going through. We must however, continue to promote the true teachings of the Church to all, no matter what may come of us. And pray for each other.

 

[sacredcello]

Yes, Mary is the Immaculate Conception and St. Joseph, her chaste spouse. God wished for her to remain a perpetual virgin for His glory, not to set an example about family size.

However, if a couple does not have the means to support a large family, but still are faithful to the Church and her teachings, NFP is a valid means of limiting family size. It does require sacrifice and the practice of chastity within marriage, unlike artificial contraception. One can look to the Holy Family as a beautiful example of perfect marital chastity for inspiration.

I’m sure you have all read about the housing crisis in California with the high number of foreclosure on home mortgages. It is a state of emergency and the governor has had to bail these people out. Should they just keep having larger and larger families?

 

[danimay]

The devil has been trying to destroy the Church since Day One. One way he does this is to try to decrease the number of Catholics and one way of doing that is thorugh contraception. Why are so many Catholics contracepting and having such small families these days?
A lot of Catholics are so worldly - they just seem to live like everyone else… (materialistic, etc…).
The devil is “protestan-tizing” the Catholic Church…
Do you agree?? Would like to hear testimonies… etc…

I wouldn’t say that I thought the devil was attacking the Catholic church with ABC to decrease it’s numbers. The reason is that most of the large families I know are catholic. I know very few protestant families or non-practicing families who have more than 3 kids. Most have only 2 and then have themselves “fixed” as they say. I would think that the catholic church has a better chance of surviving than the protestant churches, if you are talking about birth control. On the other hand, I think I read somewhere that muslim women have an average of 5 children!

 

[luvmykids]

I really have a hard time with the whole NFP thing. On one hand the Church tells us that no one is created by accident and who is not part of God’s plan. That God has to will a person to exist and utimately He creates that person, not us. This is very hard for me to explain, but I don’t understand how anyone can say it’s o.k. to limit their families at all? Doesn’t that kind of take away from God’s utimate plan? What if you were avoiding a pregnancy and missed out on a person God had intended for? Or got pregnant during a time you did not want to? Isn’t the ultimate goal eternity for all of us? What does it mean then, when people say that God will not give you more than you can handle? It’s not really completely up to us how many children we have. Ultimately, it’s up to God. There are people who try and try and get no children. There are those who think they are avoiding and end up pregnant. Is it more important to have a big house to live in and 2cars, or for God to have that many more eternal souls with Him in heaven for His glory? I struggle with this myself, when trying to discern whether or not to avoid using NFP. I know a couple who had 8 children in 10 years and after the 8th, decided to use NFP to avoid, because the husband felt that they could not handle anymore. They struggled financially, but they made it through. Their lives are very full with a lot of grandchildren and their family is very close. They have their problems, but who doesn’t. This couple will never have to worry about being lonely. All of their children are now grown with families of their own and the woman has mentioned to me a couple times that she always wondered if God had more children planned for her, but will never know, because they decided to avoid till menopause.

 

[sacredcello]

I really have a hard time with the whole NFP thing. On one hand the Church tells us that no one is created by accident and who is not part of God’s plan. That God has to will a person to exist and utimately He creates that person, not us. This is very hard for me to explain, but I don’t understand how anyone can say it’s o.k. to limit their families at all? Doesn’t that kind of take away from God’s utimate plan? What if you were avoiding a pregnancy and missed out on a person God had intended for? Or got pregnant during a time you did not want to? Isn’t the ultimate goal eternity for all of us? What does it mean then, when people say that God will not give you more than you can handle? It’s not really completely up to us how many children we have. Ultimately, it’s up to God. There are people who try and try and get no children. There are those who think they are avoiding and end up pregnant. Is it more important to have a big house to live in and 2cars, or for God to have that many more eternal souls with Him in heaven for His glory? I struggle with this myself, when trying to discern whether or not to avoid using NFP. I know a couple who had 8 children in 10 years and after the 8th, decided to use NFP to avoid, because the husband felt that they could not handle anymore. They struggled financially, but they made it through. Their lives are very full with a lot of grandchildren and their family is very close. They have their problems, but who doesn’t. This couple will never have to worry about being lonely. All of their children are now grown with families of their own and the woman has mentioned to me a couple times that she always wondered if God had more children planned for her, but will never know, because they decided to avoid till menopause.

ok, but what about the beauty and virtue of chastity? The Holy Family?

I have wondered about NFP, too. So much so that I have remained single for the last 10 years in order to be productive in my career as a concert cellist.

My confessor told me that he once met a woman who had had 30 children. I was horrified. He then told me a beautiful story about a couple he knew who had only one child by the virtue of practicing chastity and the he spoke about the beauty of their family life.

Everyone is different and God created us that way.

 

[Bataar]

The problem stems, IMO, from poor to non-existent Catholic education. I attend Mass ever week and I have never heard a priest come out and condemn contraception. Young people use it because they don’t know it’s wrong. In many, if not most, Catholic schools, students are taught that contraception is permissible and even that abortion is permissible in certain situations. If no one is teaching and promoting correct education, it’s no wonder that fewer and fewer people are following it.

 

[luvmykids]

My confessor told me that he once met a woman who had had 30 children. I was horrified.

What was it about the woman who had 30 children that horrified you?

 

[blacktiger057]

The devil has been trying to destroy the Church since Day One. One way he does this is to try to decrease the number of Catholics and one way of doing that is thorugh contraception. Why are so many Catholics contracepting and having such small families these days?
A lot of Catholics are so worldly - they just seem to live like everyone else… (materialistic, etc…).
The devil is “protestan-tizing” the Catholic Church…
Do you agree?? Would like to hear testimonies… etc…

Family size and contraception are a matter of personal choice. I don’t think there is anything wrong using condoms etc. My reasons are as follows:

1. Contraceptives are quite useful for teenagers, as it is in their very instinct to have sex. Most aren’t ready for children. Sex is not always about trying to have a baby…it can also be an instinct that we need to get a fuller experience of life.
2. Some families might not be able to support another child. Just because you can’t have any more children(financially) and then you can’t have sex anymore is not something most people would do.
3. If there werent contraceptives and abortions were outlawed, people would have families around the size of ten. This would most probably result in over population and our resources would be depleted. So they help keep balance in the world.

Also, to the original poster, it is far too convenient to blame something we don’t agree with on the devil. Some reasons you think it is evil would be nice.

 

[sacredcello]

What was it about the woman who had 30 children that horrified you?

I suppose it is that I am fortunate enough to be an artist for a living, and I see God as an artist in creating each human being. Each one is so special. But, if one were to become a mother to 30 children, it would be difficult (perhaps not impossible) for even one of them to receive the kind of education that is necessary to becoming an artist in this world, whether it be visual, musical, dance, etc. True, God does not call each of us to the arts professionally speaking, but how unfair it would be to those 30 children, IMHO.

Are you familiar with the Suzuki method? It requires a parent to practice a musical instrument with their child every day. In general this is at least one hour a day in the beginning. If one had 30… well, you do the math.

 

[Joannm]

People keep mentioning money and wanting to live the “high life,” and not sacrificing to have more kids…but I propose a different reason for some people to have smaller families. They just can’t deal with the ones they have. YOu hear in the news all the time of women who murder their children, or leave them to starve, or just don’t take care of them. Then there are the women who just don’t have the skills to raise large families.

I had three kids. I had a very difficult time raising them with little support from anyone aside from my husband. Having a child with a learning disability that schools refused to accept, which led to drug use. I thank God that he has straightened himself out, but if I had a house full of kids I think I would have been the one on drugs after dealing with all the grief and heartache and trouble this kid caused us and how it affected his sisters. Yes I worked, but only during school hours. It was what kept me sane.

When I hear people say God doesn’t send us anything we can’t handle, I wonder if he sort of skipped over me.

I love all three of my kids, but things are better now that two of the three are out of the house.

I am sorry if this sounds so negative. I am very happy that so many of you can afford big families and can raise them without too much trouble. I would have liked a large family. But it is not for everyone.