The Devil is in the Catholic Church

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Yes, and that would leave 18 at home. If you spent an hour a day with each one of them, that would leave six hours to eat, sleep, bathe, clean the house, study scripture, pray. It doesn’t sound very healthy to me, but far be it from to be judge anyone else’s choices.
If me and my wife ever have 18 kids (and we are at 4), rest assured that the 14-15-16-17-18 year olds will be doing a significant portion of the cooking and cleaning the house:p So I would at least strike those off of your list:)

But out of all of the things you listed, you forgot one: To spend time with your husband/wife…

Andy
 
I know this is an old post, but I did not see a response that made this observation.

First, the first sentence is so out there that is certainly disqualifies the person from being able to make realistic observations. Clearly this person is trying to make a point that cannot be made without distorting logic. If you have to do that, the point cannot be valid.

For what was said in the second post to be true, our generation would have to be economically worse off and more poor than all previous generations of people. That is clearly false. We can see that people who live in “third world” countries often have many children. It is the industrialized nations where birth rates are often near or below sustainable levels. What is more likely to be true is that people living in industrialized nations want to collect more stuff and spend their money on unneeded luxuries. This is known as “selfishness”. This is not a new thing.

Conclusion
A selfish or indulgent person is not likely to be willing to abstain from sex in order to avoid children. Instead, a selfish or indulgent person will want to indulge their lust, just like they indulge their other appetites. To do this while avoiding children, they must contracept. This little exercise in logic demonstrates that pretty much everything in this post, except basic spelling and grammar, was incorrect.
Then call me contrary to the rule. I am selfishly enjoying the single life because I don’t want children. I abstain in doing so.😛
 
Remember, this thread was about the Devil breaking down our Church…it seems that if he convinces Christ’s followers that smaller families are “healthier”…then he succeeds as the father of lies in breaking down our church…Does God make some families small?
Of course…but the point is…it must be HIS decision, for HE knows better than we, what our family size should be.

It is perhaps a very secular view that each family member needs one hour of undivided attention focused upon themselves!

Did Jesus give this to the people? NO! He taught, preached, ate with, socialized with, and ministered to the MULTITUDES…so much so, that He sometimes reached a point of exhaustion and need to get away and rest and pray. Was this UNhealthy? No…He taught that we must give until we have nothing left to give; and that THAT is when true giving begins.

Our family prays together, plays together, learns together, works together, and rests together…it’s funny…but when someone has a day away to a friends’, or a trip with mom or dad on their own…everyone tends to linger around the front door and windows, asking “When is so-and-so coming home? I miss them!” I can find nothing UN healthy about that kind of love.

We give children one on one time with walks in the woods, a cup of tea and a good read aloud book, a trip to the store or a restaurant, cooking a special meal together, going to Mass or the Adoration Chapel…and mom and dad get their dates out or walks in the woods without the kids as well…but mostly, we LIKE being together… We take hayrides around our woods, have picnics, campfires, and celebrations for feast days…we put on plays, or have sing alongs…just like smaller families can…we are not focused on “me” time so much, as “we” time…for love grows love, service grows service, sufferings grow strength, and all done for the Lord grows holiness…

I do not see how this can be unhealthy…I DO see, however, how that outlook can perhaps be a nudge from the enemy to put self first, or “smaller is better”…after all, the less good Catholics out there, the more battles he wins, yes?

I do not judge you; but only charitably challenge you to ask yourself WHY you find large families or the inability to have a certain given amount of undivided attention “unhealthy”…if God blesses his Church with new life…He would not make it a cause for unhealthiness…this would be contradictory to His all-good Nature.

A Holy Lenten Season to You,

mom of ten
 
Yet I have chosen not to marry and have children. How can I choose other than God’s will? Does anyone really believe that God was calling me to marriage and I deliberately went against that will? Therefore I have a family size of one. No, the devil is not there. It depends on how they are keeping the size of the family small. If they do it through abortion or ABC then there is sin whihc is the devil at work. If they choose not to get married or practice NFP then there is no devil at work there.
 
Yet I have chosen not to marry and have children. How can I choose other than God’s will? Does anyone really believe that God was calling me to marriage and I deliberately went against that will? Therefore I have a family size of one. No, the devil is not there. It depends on how they are keeping the size of the family small. If they do it through abortion or ABC then there is sin whihc is the devil at work. If they choose not to get married or practice NFP then there is no devil at work there.
God has blessed you, goofyjim, with the grace to live the chaste single life. This virtue is so despised in our culture of having it all and right now. May God continue to bless you for it.

I have recently become engaged to a man who is willing to practice chastity within our marriage (NFP), otherwise I would have stayed single, too. Both of our vocations are so demanding that it would be very hard on children, if there were many of them.

Sadly, I was previously married to a Catholic man who was the 5th of 6 children and he felt very unwanted. In fact, his mother told me that she would not have had so many children except that her cycles were irregular. I am still sad when I think about how he was unable to pursue his dream of becoming a professional bassoonist because there just wasn’t the family support he needed. He was under so much pressure to make money in order to pay his parents back for having brought him into the world. Needless to say, all 6 children left the Catholic Church with great bitterness.

On the other hand, mom of ten sounds like a very good witness to a happy and healthy large Catholic family.
 
If me and my wife ever have 18 kids (and we are at 4), rest assured that the 14-15-16-17-18 year olds will be doing a significant portion of the cooking and cleaning the house:p So I would at least strike those off of your list:)

But out of all of the things you listed, you forgot one: To spend time with your husband/wife…

Andy
If you have 18 kids, seems to me spending time with your spouce isn’t much of an issue! 😛 tee hee heee…
 
I don’t think there necessarily need to be more Catholics but I do think it is important for the folks that are here to do their best to live as Christ dictated. Quality, not quantity, I guess is what I’m saying. Five folks engaged in good works can easily outdo 10 who live simply for themsevles. 😉
 
goofyjim…please do not misunderstand…perhaps you missed the few lines in the beginning of my post where I acknowledged that God does INDEED call some families to be small…(YES! Even ONE person families like yourself! GOD BLESS YOU!)…in fact, I believe it would be against His Will if you married “anyway” instead of following your discernment to live a consecrated single life…NO DEVIL THERE…I hope you did not misunderstand me. If you did, I am sorry; my articulation was unclear then.

As for NFP…God told us (married people) to FILL THE EARTH…therefore, I disagree with the “quality not quantity”…I think there needs to be BOTH…and, if we truly believe that God knows what is best for us…then why would we feel as though we need to take it into our own hands…Just because He allows us certain knowledge, such as bodily cycles and rhythms…does not mean He intends for us to take over…if this is the case…then are we not implying that God merely “allows” life rather than WILLS it?
If we choose to procreate…good…if not…good? Then, is death too, our decision? Doesn’t the devil want us to believe that WE know better than God? Adam and Eve had knowledge of the Tree of Life…but it wasn’t for them to use…yet, they thought they knew better than God…

Someone mentioned that they were told that having so many children is like walking in front of a moving car and thinking that if you get hit; it’s God’s Will…to me, this analogy is so illogical!
God ALLOWS suffering (being hit by a car)…but He does not WILL it…suffering entered the world through sin (the sin of using knowledge that wasn’t meant for us!) However, for new life…He doesn’t merely ALLOW it…He must WILL it, for He is the Giver of Life.

Thanks for letting me share these thoughts…and again, goofyjim…I stand in complete admiration of someone such as yourself, recognizing their call, and having the courage, in this difficult world to live it with grace…may you be richly BLESSED!

mom of ten
 
I’ve posted this quote numerous times and I think it sums up best how I feel.

The spouses have the inalienable right to found a family and to decide on the spacing of births and the number of children to be born, taking into full consideration their duties towards themselves, their children already born, the family and society, in a just hierarchy of values and in accordance with the objective moral order which excludes recourse to contraception, sterilization and abortion.
–charter of the rights of the family (vatican document)

I think its also important to realize that the Church does approve of NFP for valid reasons. It’s not something dirty or sinful to postpone a pregnancy if you have a valid reason. It gets old after awhile being told that you’re not a good Catholic unless you have at least 5+ children.

"We must also be convinced that it is providential that various natural family planning methods exist so as to meet the needs of different couples. The Church does not give exclusive approval to any one natural method, but urges that all be made available and be respected.
 
I haven’t seen anyone on this forum claim that one is not a “good” Catholic, unless they have 5+ children…if you’ve been told that in life…that’s too bad.

I do caution people to remember that NFP is NOT Church dogma…therefore, (like private revelations) we are free to agree with it or not.

Remember that past encyclicals also state that the purpose of marriage is never to be frustrated…not only the marital act…but the purpose itself…(which is procreation and education of children)…therefore, it is arguable that NFP frustrates the purpose.

However, I apologize for going off-topic of the devil in the Catholic Church…I just felt compelled to reply, as it was insinuated in the previous post that people were of the opinion that large families make good Catholics; I haven’t read anything here that stated that; nor implied it.

Peace!
mom of ten
 
Yet I have chosen not to marry and have children. How can I choose other than God’s will? Does anyone really believe that God was calling me to marriage and I deliberately went against that will? Therefore I have a family size of one. No, the devil is not there. It depends on how they are keeping the size of the family small. If they do it through abortion or ABC then there is sin whihc is the devil at work. If they choose not to get married or practice NFP then there is no devil at work there.
Some things to chew on:

Even though the blog is written by a British evangelical, it was linked to in another thread here at CAF and does have some sensible observations:

thegiftofsingleness.blogspot.com

And in the following article - even though it may not have been written by a Catholic - does suggest that not getting married has as a consequence that someone else is deprived of a spouse:

beliefnet.com/story/130/story_13029_1.html
 
I haven’t seen anyone on this forum claim that one is not a “good” Catholic, unless they have 5+ children…if you’ve been told that in life…that’s too bad.

I do caution people to remember that NFP is NOT Church dogma…therefore, (like private revelations) we are free to agree with it or not.

Remember that past encyclicals also state that the purpose of marriage is never to be frustrated…not only the marital act…but the purpose itself…(which is procreation and education of children)…therefore, it is arguable that NFP frustrates the purpose.

However, I apologize for going off-topic of the devil in the Catholic Church…I just felt compelled to reply, as it was insinuated in the previous post that people were of the opinion that large families make good Catholics; I haven’t read anything here that stated that; nor implied it.

Peace!
mom of ten
What gets implied though if you don’t have more than one child then you’re being selfish.I can’t tell you the numerous times on here I and others have defended the use of NFP because we have a valid reason only to be told we don’t trust God.

I see on these forums that if you have a large family it seems that you must be a superb Catholic and people will go to go great lengths to defend you. Whereas it seems ok to make remarks about family size if its less than 2.

For many couples NFP actually brings them closer together. Thanks to NFP I don’t feel like a cheap person just being used to fufill a need. It draws us closer together as a couple because it makes us communicate, pray together and consider our future and our actions.
 
What gets implied though if you don’t have more than one child then you’re being selfish.I can’t tell you the numerous times on here I and others have defended the use of NFP because we have a valid reason only to be told we don’t trust God.

I see on these forums that if you have a large family it seems that you must be a superb Catholic and people will go to go great lengths to defend you. Whereas it seems ok to make remarks about family size if its less than 2.

For many couples NFP actually brings them closer together. Thanks to NFP I don’t feel like a cheap person just being used to fufill a need. It draws us closer together as a couple because it makes us communicate, pray together and consider our future and our actions.
I am due with my 6th child in the next few months and can’t go ANYWHERE without being gawked at or looked upon like I am some sort of freak show. Even my 8 year old son noticed it the other day when we were all out at a restaurant. He said, “mom, those people are staring at us!” I kind of feel bad for him, because I think he is becoming a little self conscious of the fact that we are given so much attention when out in public. At least you can go places and not be stared at. I think the majority of Catholics do not judge you. I just feel that the majority of this country is not very supportive of those of us who do have large families. It is not easy to live in such an unsupportive environment.:mad:

It’s a shame that you feel that way about this forum, but I have never gotten that impression about this forum at all. I feel more as if those of us who do have large families, or the ones who choose not to use NFP seem to always be in the position to have to defend themselves and their reasons for having so many children.
 
Okay this is what I don’t get about some of these threads. The original question was why do some Catholics contracept and have small families? Why are some Catholics falling into the materialistic lifestyle? Then there are a flood of “We can’t afford more children…” and “We have to work two jobs to put food on the table…” and “no $200 sneakers here…”. So we’re not talking about you then, right?

There ARE Catholics doing this. Right? I know some of them, I love them, and I worry about them. I also wonder why?

I think it’s because of a few things. First of all I think people do what’s popular. It’s human nature. I think they don’t think that they are really expected to follow difficult rules, especially to not contracept. Everyone else is (or so they think…).

What can we do about it? I guess do the best you can to live a Catholic life and let others see. That’s what helps me day to day. That’s why I come on here and read and read. I love to hear of people trying to live out their lives as God wants them to. If I didn’t, I would think I was crazy, and just be a mess.
 
I haven’t seen anyone on this forum claim that one is not a “good” Catholic, unless they have 5+ children…if you’ve been told that in life…that’s too bad.

I do caution people to remember that NFP is NOT Church dogma…therefore, (like private revelations) we are free to agree with it or not.

Remember that past encyclicals also state that the purpose of marriage is never to be frustrated…not only the marital act…but the purpose itself…(which is procreation and education of children)…therefore, it is arguable that NFP frustrates the purpose.

However, I apologize for going off-topic of the devil in the Catholic Church…I just felt compelled to reply, as it was insinuated in the previous post that people were of the opinion that large families make good Catholics; I haven’t read anything here that stated that; nor implied it.

Peace!
mom of ten
Here’s at least 2 posts showing that people do think this way on this thread…
True…
** I believe its a sin to, say, make $50,000 a year and only have one or two children, whether you use NFP or contraception, though obviusly, the latter method is more sinful than the former**…
. **It is un-Catholic to not have as many children as you can… **But people nowadays seem to just do whatever their Protestant neighbors do… Sounds like an excuse to me…
 
I haven’t seen anyone on this forum claim that one is not a “good” Catholic, unless they have 5+ children…if you’ve been told that in life…that’s too bad.

I do caution people to remember that NFP is NOT Church dogma…therefore, (like private revelations) we are free to agree with it or not.

Remember that past encyclicals also state that the purpose of marriage is never to be frustrated…not only the marital act…but the purpose itself…(which is procreation and education of children)…therefore, it is arguable that NFP frustrates the purpose.

However, I apologize for going off-topic of the devil in the Catholic Church…I just felt compelled to reply, as it was insinuated in the previous post that people were of the opinion that large families make good Catholics; I haven’t read anything here that stated that; nor implied it.

Peace!
mom of ten
It is this subtle putdown of couples who practice NFP that makes me livid, implying that they are frustrating the purpose of marriage. Every marriage, and each marital act must be open to life, but the use of NFP to prayerfully and judiciously space children, or, in certain instances, even limit family size for good reasons is accepted and supported by the Church no matter how you feel about it.

If a couple entered marriage with the idea that they would NEVER be open to having children, but would use only NFP to achieve that goal - then THAT is an example of “frustrating the purpose” of marriage - not couples who pray and struggle and play by the Church’s rules, even when difficult.
 
For what was said in the second post to be true, our generation would have to be economically worse off and more poor than all previous generations of people. That is clearly false. We can see that people who live in “third world” countries often have many children. It is the industrialized nations where birth rates are often near or below sustainable levels. What is more likely to be true is that people living in industrialized nations want to collect more stuff and spend their money on unneeded luxuries. This is known as “selfishness”. This is not a new thing.

I am from a “thrid world” country and i can assure you that people here do not have many children because they want to, infact generally they are more desperate not to have many children than the “industrialised nations”. Other factors like ineffective knowledge of birth countrol, early marriage and having more hands to help on the farms or beg in the streets come to play.

I really try not to say much on this NFP issue. I dont expect everybody here to understand the effect of “economically unable to cater for one more child”.

I donot use contraceptive for one and only one reason, the church says it is a sin! period. I keep my sanity by frequent holy communions and I dont believe that any form of contraception is worth taking away the joy of my communion. I however do not have any comments for those who say that a delibrate attempt at having a small family is sinful. As far as i am concerned, the only sin i recognise here is the sin of using artificial contraception. I will use NFP to plan my family to three or four children like i would love to have, it will take the heavens to convince me that it is a sin.

Children from very large homes in this part of the world unfortunately do not prove to be morally better than those from smaller families. My nanny has to work, she has 8 kids, catholic too, but she has to work. In some part of this earth, i will like some of us to know that poverty and stravation has a more complex reality, that it will rather be sinful to have so many kids you can’t feed, they beg, become pick pockets, theifs, crooks in some countries, university graduates cannot find good jobs speak little of people who could not go to school cause their parents could not send them to school. Here in my country, most of the social vices are perpetuated by the poor unfortunately. If you have 8 kids and can only afford public schools, you had better not send you child to school cause the public schools teach almost nothing but form criminal of your children. If you dont send your child to school, you have as well put the death sentence on the child’s future or lack of it really. What some of you consider poverty there is luxury here.

I believe that 50 faithfuls really serving God in truth and in spirit are worth more than a thousand loofers (sorry to use the word).

This is just my opinion. I believe it is sinful to use artificial contraception, but i don’t believe it is sinful to plan the size of your family.
 
It is this subtle putdown of couples who practice NFP that makes me livid, implying that they are frustrating the purpose of marriage. Every marriage, and each marital act must be open to life, but the use of NFP to prayerfully and judiciously space children, or, in certain instances, even limit family size for good reasons is accepted and supported by the Church no matter how you feel about it.

If a couple entered marriage with the idea that they would NEVER be open to having children, but would use only NFP to achieve that goal - then THAT is an example of “frustrating the purpose” of marriage - not couples who pray and struggle and play by the Church’s rules, even when difficult.
Yes, but the problem is that “good reason” has many different interpretations. What is one person’s good reason may not really be a good reason in God’s eye’s.

Most of the time it is very difficult to become unselfish, especially surrounded by society’s view of large families and children in general. They are thought of as burdens.

Catechism states:

2371"Let all be convinced that human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man’s eternal destiny."

2373"Sacred Scripture and the Church’s traditional practice see in **large families **a sign of God’s blessing and the parents’ generosity."

Of course, God does not mean everyone to have large families, ie:infertile couples.
 
For what was said in the second post to be true, our generation would have to be economically worse off and more poor than all previous generations of people. That is clearly false. We can see that people who live in “third world” countries often have many children. It is the industrialized nations where birth rates are often near or below sustainable levels. What is more likely to be true is that people living in industrialized nations want to collect more stuff and spend their money on unneeded luxuries. This is known as “selfishness”. This is not a new thing.

I am from a “thrid world” country and i can assure you that people here do not have many children because they want to, infact generally they are more desperate not to have many children than the “industrialised nations”. Other factors like ineffective knowledge of birth countrol, early marriage and having more hands to help on the farms or beg in the streets come to play.

I really try not to say much on this NFP issue. I dont expect everybody here to understand the effect of “economically unable to cater for one more child”.

I donot use contraceptive for one and only one reason, the church says it is a sin! period. I keep my sanity by frequent holy communions and I dont believe that any form of contraception is worth taking away the joy of my communion. I however do not have any comments for those who say that a delibrate attempt at having a small family is sinful. As far as i am concerned, the only sin i recognise here is the sin of using artificial contraception. I will use NFP to plan my family to three or four children like i would love to have, it will take the heavens to convince me that it is a sin.

Children from very large homes in this part of the world unfortunately do not prove to be morally better than those from smaller families. My nanny has to work, she has 8 kids, catholic too, but she has to work. In some part of this earth, i will like some of us to know that poverty and stravation has a more complex reality, that it will rather be sinful to have so many kids you can’t feed, they beg, become pick pockets, theifs, crooks in some countries, university graduates cannot find good jobs speak little of people who could not go to school cause their parents could not send them to school. Here in my country, most of the social vices are perpetuated by the poor unfortunately. If you have 8 kids and can only afford public schools, you had better not send you child to school cause the public schools teach almost nothing but form criminal of your children. If you dont send your child to school, you have as well put the death sentence on the child’s future or lack of it really. What some of you consider poverty there is luxury here.

I believe that 50 faithfuls really serving God in truth and in spirit are worth more than a thousand loofers (sorry to use the word).

This is just my opinion. I believe it is sinful to use artificial contraception, but i don’t believe it is sinful to plan the size of your family.
Well said! 👍
 
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