The Devil is in the Catholic Church

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"Please do not call people rabbits…this is the sort of insulting behavior of which I alluded to in a previous post. I have been called “rabbit” in public…in FRONT of my children. These things are unspeakable…and VERY uncharitable."

Why on earth would you assume that that was directed at you, or anyone in your situation? What is apparent from your posts is that you are a very loving mother, who takes excellent care of her children. And, again, I said that we are NOT rabbits! How could I possibly be calling someone something I say no person is??

I LOVE big families! I am from a big family, and God willing, would like to have 5 or 6 myself. However, if God-forbid, my husband loses his job, or one of my children became gravely ill (requiring much more of my attention) or if I have a nervous breakdown, etc, I would consider it irresponsible to have more babies at that time! And I would use NFP as I am at this present time, until I felt like God was calling me to have more.

And the whole, God wills every birth-God doesn’t will every birth debate…perhaps you are being too general? I can imagine a scenario in which a married couple cannot conceive, and goes on fertility drugs (which, my understanding is, the Church does allow certain types of fertility drugs to be used within a marriage) and against all odds, DESPITE the fact that the husband is addicted to porn and the wife is a severe anorexic, they get pregnant. Did God will, or allow that pregnancy? What about IUD babies, babies or rape, etc?
 
distracted said:
Truly Blessed;3443103:
A Big Fat Amen to That!!
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:clapping: :extrahappy: :tiphat:

Wow…
Umm…I guess based on statistics, I do not believe EVERY family with 2-3 kids has these severe issues. But then again, it is a troubled world and more people probably have grave reasons then one might assume. It’s certainly not for us to say.
And to celebrate the fact that someone thinks all or most of the 2-3 kid families in church have a contraceptive attitude seems HARSH. Personally, in church, my focus is on the Man front-and center-- the guy on the CROSS, not whether those around me have grave reasons for limiting family size…
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Truly_Blessed said:
distracted;3443244:
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to celebrate the fact that someone thinks all or most of the 2-3 kid families in church have a contraceptive attitude seems HARSH.
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Then maybe you think Jesus is harsh also?

Jesus called people who refused to listen to Him “hypocrites” and “you brood of vipers”. He said that even those who cast out demons in his name & did other miraculous things can be refused entry into Heaven… He said to them, “Depart from me, you evil-doers.”

Yes, Jesus was “harsh” also…

So thanks for the compliment…
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**
I encourage all to read the story of Gianna Beretta Molla.**

Oh, I know the story very well. That is why I prayed to her when my Dr. told on more than one occasion to have an abortion. That is why I prayed to her when I was being wheeled into an operating room to have an emergency c-section because they couldn’t find my son’s heart beat and I was bleeding internally. That is why I try to live a life dedicated to my son. I think the real selfish act would be for me to try to have another child and leave my son motherless. I am not willing to do that just because you think I should.

…and VERY uncharitable I did not make this comment and I think you misunderstood it. I really feel that you are the uncharitable one here. Who are you to make those of us using NFP feel like we are somehow “bad” Catholics for doing so? My husband and I pray about using NFP often and have consulted Priests on the subject. I feel completely as ease with our decision. This does NOT make us bad Catholics, bad people or bad parents. God alone can judge us based on this choice…how dare you try to do His job for Him.

God is the one we trust and the one we rely on. He has blest us with one amazing son and I am so thankful for that, I am also so thankful for the life I will witness, for the lessons I will be able to teach him and love I will be able to give him.
 
Truly_Blessed said:
distracted;3443244:
Wow…
Umm…I guess based on statistics, I do not believe EVERY family with 2-3 kids has these severe issues. But then again, it is a troubled world and more people probably have grave reasons then one might assume. It’s certainly not for us to say.
And to celebrate the fact that someone thinks all or most of the 2-3 kid families in church have a contraceptive attitude seems HARSH. Personally, in church, my focus is on the Man front-and center-- the guy on the CROSS, not whether those around me have grave reasons for limiting family size…
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You are assuming something about me, as my post does not say that I am thinking that all or most of the 2-3 kids families in church have a contraceptive attitude. I NEVER said that, YOU put words where they weren’t.

“I would never outright judge someone not knowing their circumstances. I am speaking in general terms, as I have met people who like I said, they feel the need to let me know why they didn’t have anymore as soon as they see my family.”

It has always been a troubled world!!
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Truly_Blessed said:
luvmykids;3442997:
I barely see anyone with the family size of more than 2 or 3 children in Church. I have a hard time believing all these people have mental health issues, medical problems, addictions, etc…

!
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I am sorry if i caused trouble by quoting this part of your post…

But i feel the same way… I know of very poor people who have raised big families. I know of one family in particular where the father alone worked outside the home and he never made much money. The family isn’t all that close now, but they used to be & most of the children turned out OK - or better than Ok… They are all still Catholic. (although some don’t go to Mass as often as others…).

I just don’t buy it that people need 2 incomes to raise a large family… More to the point is: They think they need 2 incomes… to raise a family “in the manner in which they have become accustomed”…

Maybe we Americans get accustomed to too much comfort… we begin to look at luxuries as necessities…
 
I’m starting to think that the devil is not only in the Church, but in this very thread…we are all starting to sound pretty uncharitible.

This is really a rather subjective…ummm…subject that could use a bit more kindness on both sides.
 
distracted said:
Truly Blessed;3443103:
I am sorry if i caused trouble by quoting this part of your post…

But i feel the same way… I know of very poor people who have raised big families. I know of one family in particular where the father alone worked outside the home and he never made much money. The family isn’t all that close now, but they used to be & most of the children turned out OK - or better than Ok… They are all still Catholic. (although some don’t go to Mass as often as others…).

I just don’t buy it that people need 2 incomes to raise a large family… More to the point is: They think
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they need 2 incomes… to raise a family “in the manner in which they have become accustomed”…

Maybe we Americans get accustomed to too much comfort… we begin to look at luxuries as necessities…

Don’t be sorry. It’s ok, I’m the one who posted it. But you are basically stating my point in the above quote. I understand that there are those who have some very grave reasons, I just think that a lot of people are in the category that you stated above, and a lot of times we as mere mortals cannot see the bigger picture as God can. We cannot know His plan for us and worry and fret over things that prevent us from doing what He has truly willed for us and for the greater good of His glory and ultimate plan. Which of course is in turn the best for US as far as our salvation goes. Sorry if that sounded like a bunch of mumbled thoughts.:o
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mom_of_ten said:
Spouses are attracted to each other during the fertile time because it is the HOLY SPIRIT calling them together in their vocation and purpose of the procreation and education of children.

Get pregnant without God intending there to be new life?!?!?
This sounds BLASPHEMOUS!!! How DARE one claim that life can be created without the Will of GOD?!? Since when can human beings create something out of nothing?!? That is WHY GOD IS GOD!!! This is outrageous.
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Actually I think the attraction to your spouse during fertile times has more to do with hormones then the holy spirit…
 
distracted said:
Truly Blessed;3443103:
I am sorry if i caused trouble by quoting this part of your post…

But i feel the same way… I know of very poor people who have raised big families. I know of one family in particular where the father alone worked outside the home and he never made much money. The family isn’t all that close now, but they used to be & most of the children turned out OK - or better than Ok… They are all still Catholic. (although some don’t go to Mass as often as others…).

I just don’t buy it that people need 2 incomes to raise a large family… More to the point is: They think
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they need 2 incomes… to raise a family “in the manner in which they have become accustomed”…

Maybe we Americans get accustomed to too much comfort… we begin to look at luxuries as necessities…

How do you know they donlt need two incomes? In many areas now it is very expensive to live even without all the luxuries. Not to mention insurance…it can cost you a pretty penny just to have decent insurance…BUT if you donlt have it be prepared to pay your life savings if anyone in your family gets really sick like cancer or gets in a major accident. Heck without insurance in the US I have read that giving birth can cost THOUSANDS! and that is an uncomplicated birth! But for many people on two incomes with 2-3 children they barely scrap by!

Not to mention not everyone is super fertile…amount of time a woman is fertile is usually only a few days in her cycle! So unless a person is specially TRYING to get pregnant…even without using contraception OR NFP they might only get pregnant a few times depending on how often they make love. So I think it is VERY unfair to judge small families and those with two working parents!
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Calliso said:
distracted;3443436:
How do you know they donlt need two incomes? In many areas now it is very expensive to live even without all the luxuries. Not to mention insurance…it can cost you a pretty penny just to have decent insurance…BUT if you donlt have it be prepared to pay your life savings if anyone in your family gets really sick like cancer or gets in a major accident. Heck without insurance in the US I have read that giving birth can cost THOUSANDS! and that is an uncomplicated birth! But for many people on two incomes with 2-3 children they barely scrap by!

Not to mention not everyone is super fertile…amount of time a woman is fertile is usually only a few days in her cycle! So unless a person is specially TRYING to get pregnant…even without using contraception OR NFP they might only get pregnant a few times depending on how often they make love. So I think it is VERY unfair to judge small families and those with two working parents!
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I hear you. And I do agree. Love and empathy should direct us.

I will say that I am thrilled that so many Catholics are debating between “no family planning” and “natural family planning.” Anywhere else in this world it’d be “which pill should I be on??”

But the bottom line for me is this: if it’s good enough for our beloved JPII, it’s good enough for me! He and the CCC all state point-blank that NFP can be used morally for grave reasons to be determined prayerfully by the couple with direction from their priest if needed. Scripture may be “against” NFP according to some, but thankfully as Catholics we reject Sola Scriptura and embrace with love the words of our pontiffs! Is it "T"eaching or "t"eaching? I’m not sure, but I know JPII and I trust him!

I hope and pray that during this Holy Week and coming Easter season all Catholics come together in defense of life!

I know everyone involved in this thread is surely prolife and supports wholeheartedly what she/he interprets as Church T/teaching. We can rejoice in that!!

Big family or small family, the Holy Spirit will guide ALL fcouples to live out their calling as GOD intended.
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btw, I think the quotes are off on this thread. It might have been my fault because I know I mangled a post a while back! Sorry! But for the record, the post about not believing families needed 2 incomes was not by me.
 
distracted said:
It is un-Catholic to not have as many children as you can…
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Not true. The church recognizes that there are some circumstances when it is appropriate to limit family size or stop having children: financial, psychological and health reasons are among them. BUT, one must always be OPEN to the possibility of new life, even in the midst of these substantial reasons… and the reasons cannot be selfish ones.

No one is “un-Catholic” if they don’t have as many as they can.

*CCC 2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156 *
 
mom2three said:
Not true. The church recognizes that there are some circumstances when it is appropriate to limit family size or stop having children: financial, psychological and health reasons are among them. BUT, one must always be OPEN to the possibility of new life, even in the midst of these substantial reasons… and the reasons cannot be selfish ones.

No one is “un-Catholic” if they don’t have as many as they can.

*CCC 2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:
Code: 
When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156 *
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Amen! Straight from the book itself! Thx Mom2three!
 
distracted said:
What made you join the Church?

What were you before you joined?

I heard there are 60,000 people joining the Church this Easter (in the U.S.)… That is such a heart-warming thought. 🙂
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A bit off topic, but I was an atheist for more than 20 years before my conversion. My conversion was sudden, supernatural and miraculous.

It is kind of hard to summarize in a sentence or two, but I will try. Between exhaling one breath and drawing the next, I spent two weeks one evening witnessing the unquestionable power of God and converted in less than one second. (Yeah, I know the whole time thing is confusing. But I said it was supernatural and miraculous.)

I will never separate myself from Holy Mother Church. I will do my best to learn all She has to teach and I will always humbly conform my conscience to follow Her teachings.

It is not much to ask in exchange for the Gift God has given me.
 
rpp said:
A bit off topic, but I was an atheist for more than 20 years before my conversion. My conversion was sudden, supernatural and miraculous.

It is kind of hard to summarize in a sentence or two, but I will try. Between exhaling one breath and drawing the next, I spent two weeks one evening witnessing the unquestionable power of God and converted in less than one second. (Yeah, I know the whole time thing is confusing. But I said it was supernatural and miraculous.)

I will never separate myself from Holy Mother Church. I will do my best to learn all She has to teach and I will always humbly conform my conscience to follow Her teachings.

It is not much to ask in exchange for the Gift God has given me.
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That is awesome! Wow…you should write a book. Miracles DO happen! I believe you and thank you for sharing your story-- it is incredible!
 
Truly_Blessed said:
That is awesome! Wow…you should write a book. Miracles DO happen! I believe you and thank you for sharing your story-- it is incredible!
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Actually, at the insistence of my priest and RCIA sponsor, I did write a book. It is in final edit now and will be published soon.
 
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