S
SolaChristo
Guest
You have attempted to steer the discussion away from the points I made without addressing those points.
Now your frustrated with me?
- Status
Now your frustrated with me?
S
SolaChristo
Guest
Christ clearly commands that the congregation must obey the Pharisees because of their authority; regardless of their hypocrisy. Christ clearly establishes that no one has the right to walk away from His “authorized” church when the inevitable periods of weakness or sin will affect the heirarchy. To do so is to break one’s sacred covenent oath’s to God and His church, to deny its authority, which is the same as denying the one who gave that authority, and to bring division to the one body. It mocks the prayer by Christ at the last supper for unity, and aids the devil in his attempts to prevail against the Lord’s church by breaking that unity.
(Any comments on Matthew 23:2-3, and please… no hypothetical nonsense about a ficticious woman and abusive husband.)
I am really looking forward to your answers. Thanks.
Thal59
Did John the Baptist obey the Scribes and Pharisees?
All of scripture is truth.
Read 1Samuel God took away the authority of Eli and his descendents because they were corrupt. When the leadership is corrupt God can and will take away the authority of that leadership.
P
Paris_Blues
Guest
Yes you are BUT you don’t have the FULLNESS! When you’re not in the FULLNESS, that’s like saying, “well, I’m part of the Body of Christ but I am going to pick and choose what I want to believe and reject” and how can you know the TRUTH when you do that?
unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_shock.gif
You don’t realize what you’re missing in the CC! images.bravenet.com/common/images/smilies/28_spin.gifhttp://javascript<b></b>: void(0);
http://javascript<b></b>: void(0);
http://unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_s
W
WannbeCatholic
Guest
====
I heard Fr. Corapi give this passage:
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”
Then, I heard this restated by Fr. Corapi as:
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you all, that he might sift you all like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”
My take was that Fr. Corapi further defined this to something like:
Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have ‘access to the souls of all living humans’, that he might sift ‘the souls of all living humans’ like wheat, but I have prayed for you, (specifically for Peter) that your faith (holding on to the teaching of Jesus) may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren. (those united to the successor of Jesus)
To me, (those united to the successor of Jesus) would mean only persons wholly active in living the Faith as preserved and defined by the successors of Jesus would be protected from the sifting of Satan.
If that is the case, would this give Satan access to inactive, cultural type, Catholics, as will as persons in other Christian faiths? Given a non-practicing Catholic is in less then a union with the Pope.
S
SolaChristo
Guest
Paris Blues:
What exactly do you mean when you say fullness?
P
Paris_Blues
Guest
Exactly what it means. The FULLNESS of Truth. The CC contains the FULLNESS of Truth while non-Catholic churches only contain part of it. Make sense?
S
SolaChristo
Guest
Paris Blues:
No it doesnt. It sounds like something Catholics say when they have nothing else to offer as a sort of trump card but which really is meaningless.
P
Paris_Blues
Guest
Well, this sounds like a non-Catholic who doesn’t want to believe what the CC really is.
T
tjmiller
Guest
Please, let’s not limit the Fullness with which Christ endowed His One True Church to the fulness of divinely revealed truth only. Add also: the fulness of all of the means of holiness and salvation.
The fact that the Catholic Church is endowed by her Divine Founder with the fulness both of divinely revealed truth and the means of holiness and salvation is in fact a Trump Card. It is the Trump Card which Jesus Christ gave to the Church He established.
The fact that the Catholic Church is endowed by her Divine Founder with the fulness both of divinely revealed truth and the means of holiness and salvation is in fact a Trump Card. It is the Trump Card which Jesus Christ gave to the Church He established.
P
Paris_Blues
Guest
What on earth is a Trump Card?[unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_shock.gif](javascript:insertsmilie(’:shock:’))[[unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_shock.gif](javascript:insertsmilie(’:shock:’))](javascript:insertsmilie(’:shock:’))
J
john_ennis
Guest
Paris Blues:
In the case of our debate here, it is the claim that defeats all arguments.
Peace.
John
It’s the card that beats any other card in the hand.
In the case of our debate here, it is the claim that defeats all arguments.
Peace.
John
J
john_ennis
Guest
No, we really mean it–don’t be so sure about our intentions.
We believe the Church teaches everything that is necessary for following Christ–and does so truthfully. We believe Christ set the Church up that way when he gave the Apostles the task of teaching all nations, and binding/loosing sins, and when he said I will be with you always, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church.
We believe it’s this Church that has the full truth, rather than any other, because Christ made it identifiable from the beginning, when he made Simon the Kepha on which He would build it.
Since the earliest Christians echo all that, we embrace it as the means Christ gave us to keep us from establishing our own personal opinions as doctrine, starting a new Church, and then claiming that it is the true Church.
As St Iraneaus (eighteen hundred years ago) and St. Augustine (sixteen hundred years), and so many others said, without anyone disputing it for a millenia, it is the Church in Rome which one must agree with.
Peace.
John
P
Paris_Blues
Guest
REALLY? Oh my word. I’m Catholic
’)) I didn’t realize how Catholic I am/was![’)"]http://unity.enya.com/images/smiles/icon_smile_big.gif]("javascript:insertsmilie(’[
)
T
tjmiller
Guest
trump card:
nothing to do with The Donald,
but rather a card which outranks all others in a hand.
Thus, a key resource to be used at an opportune moment.
Derivative of “triumph”.
Although not a metaphor I would have selected, it does fit rather well, I think. Thanks to Sola…
The historical and dogmatic fact that Christ imbued His Catholic (Grk., kata+holos, according to the whole) Church with the Fullness both of divinely revealed truth and of the means of holiness and salvation certainly outranks any arguments which the opponents of said Church can muster. It is, indeed, the resource of our triumph…
nothing to do with The Donald,
but rather a card which outranks all others in a hand.
Thus, a key resource to be used at an opportune moment.
Derivative of “triumph”.
Although not a metaphor I would have selected, it does fit rather well, I think. Thanks to Sola…
The historical and dogmatic fact that Christ imbued His Catholic (Grk., kata+holos, according to the whole) Church with the Fullness both of divinely revealed truth and of the means of holiness and salvation certainly outranks any arguments which the opponents of said Church can muster. It is, indeed, the resource of our triumph…
L
Little_Mary
Guest
Paris Blues:
Yes I’ve heard about this - just the other day actually - this is one of those passages when it’s good to understand the translation from the Greek. There was no translation to differentiate between “you” and “you all” (or ya’ll as we say in the South).I was watching Fr. Corapi on EWTN a week ago or so and he was talking about how Catholics read the Bible, etc.
At the end, he was telling about how the Scripture where Jesus says to Peter something like Satan wants to have you and to shift you like wheat (don’t know what Gospel that’s in but I know I’ve seen it before) and that our Lord was praying for Peter especially.
Fr. was telling the correct interpretation of it. It was that when our Lord said Satan wants to have you, the “you” was plural, like to have ALL of the disciples, etc. and the “you” in shift you like wheat, was plural as well (to shift you ALL). But when our Lord said that He would pray for Peter especially because unity wouuld be kept or something like that. Did anyone catch this program on TV to know what I’m talking about?
Well, anyway, Fr. went on to say what happens when you go away from Peter? Satan shifts us all! He said so when Martin Luther left, Wesley, all the other Protestant ones left, Satan shifts them all and now we have over 60,000 Christian denominations teaches this and that, etc.!
That’s exactly what I thought, that the devil was part of the Reformation.
Why? Think about it. You REALLY think that ALL interpretations of the Bible match? NO. Do we agree on them? NO. Do they cause confusion? YES. Remember, Satan causes confusion! It’s NOT the Holy Spirit. And that’s EXACTLY what he wanted to do: to lead people away from the Truth!
Now look at our brethren…they have been strayed away from Truth!:crying:
Now I understand: the CC is the only Church that stands in unity because it IS THE TRUE Church founded by our Lord and what our Lord said was true because the proof is right in front of our eyes.Make sense?
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Catholics: My God can beat up your God.
Non-Catholics: My God can beat up your God.
Suggested variation for either: My God IS your God, duhhh.
I’ve heard a comedy routine that does a great job of showing how silly people are when they get into this spewing match, except he said more approximately, “my God carries a bigger stick than your God.”
The Protestant Reformation might have been the best thing for Catholicism. If Satan played a role in it, could he have done so by corrupting the Church to the point that a person with as much leadership potential felt he had to break off and start a new religion and a lot of people answered?
A lot of people question on whose authority we speak as Christians. We say, “on God’s authority,” which is fine for those who share the faith but meaningless to those who don’t share it, it’s just blather. At some point it comes down to the beliefs of each of us as an individual. If nobody believes in the Catholic Church, then it will be clear it has no authority on this earth. A religion is given authority and power by those who believe in it. How could Luther have started anything if there weren’t many, many Catholics who were disappointed with their own Church and were hoping to find things better elsewhere. Maybe they didn’t find things better elsewhere, but I can’t blame them for trying. As I understand it, the Church was quite the mess at the time with many crimes at all levels – honestly who can defend an “absolute” call to a place that corrupt? We tend to downplay this, and then we see the Church even in our lifetime doing the same thing. She has covered and thus enabled many, many crimes against children and fought every attempt at the SECULAR world to bring it to justice! This is not how things should be, and I get pretty tired of hearing Catholics talk snooty over my non-Catholic friends.
I am glad that since the Reformation the Church has gotten itself together – under threat of competition now – to the extent she has, and I am glad for those who share in our beautiful faith which remains somehow uncorrupted (so we presume) through all of the centuries. When I was young, my Lutheran best friend’s mother used to try to pit us against each other, for example, “his ‘Our Father’ is longer than mine,” (of course until we “Protestantized” it in Church years later) and all this **** that made no difference to two little kids except to give them some idea that adults are weird and isolationist about their religions.
That’s why I am in favor of being fascinated by alternate views of religion rather than trying to crush alternate views. When one listens to others and their stories, the differences and similarities in the stories bring much to the table. After all, we keep saying there is an absolute underlying truth to everything but guess what? The Catholic Church is not the author of every true word ever spoken, and will not be the only ones to speak a true work in the future.
Personally I think that the Reformation may have saved the Church to prevent satan from prevailing against it. When you have a message or operating behavior that is unacceptable to a good chunk of the crowd, who knows that they might have destroyed the Church from within – if for nothing else just to stop the evil – and “thrown the baby out with the bathwater?” That is not to say the reformers were bathwater, but anyone who has had any kind of taste of a corrupt bureaucratic system, whether it be the Church at the parish or diocese level, a government or industry entity, knows how frustrating it is and how tempting to wish God (or at least somebody) would burn the whole thing down and start over. Reformation prevented that from having to take place. The Church may have preached wonderful things, but her practices of evil were apparently so widespread there wasn’t any reasonable way to separate the two. We should be thankful to Martin Luther, and pray for him, and yet we still have a Church with people who snip at each other on a regular basis, all the while chiding Protestants for having a different opinion. Hellloooo??? Is there intelligent life down here???
Alan
Non-Catholics: My God can beat up your God.
Suggested variation for either: My God IS your God, duhhh.
I’ve heard a comedy routine that does a great job of showing how silly people are when they get into this spewing match, except he said more approximately, “my God carries a bigger stick than your God.”
The Protestant Reformation might have been the best thing for Catholicism. If Satan played a role in it, could he have done so by corrupting the Church to the point that a person with as much leadership potential felt he had to break off and start a new religion and a lot of people answered?
A lot of people question on whose authority we speak as Christians. We say, “on God’s authority,” which is fine for those who share the faith but meaningless to those who don’t share it, it’s just blather. At some point it comes down to the beliefs of each of us as an individual. If nobody believes in the Catholic Church, then it will be clear it has no authority on this earth. A religion is given authority and power by those who believe in it. How could Luther have started anything if there weren’t many, many Catholics who were disappointed with their own Church and were hoping to find things better elsewhere. Maybe they didn’t find things better elsewhere, but I can’t blame them for trying. As I understand it, the Church was quite the mess at the time with many crimes at all levels – honestly who can defend an “absolute” call to a place that corrupt? We tend to downplay this, and then we see the Church even in our lifetime doing the same thing. She has covered and thus enabled many, many crimes against children and fought every attempt at the SECULAR world to bring it to justice! This is not how things should be, and I get pretty tired of hearing Catholics talk snooty over my non-Catholic friends.
I am glad that since the Reformation the Church has gotten itself together – under threat of competition now – to the extent she has, and I am glad for those who share in our beautiful faith which remains somehow uncorrupted (so we presume) through all of the centuries. When I was young, my Lutheran best friend’s mother used to try to pit us against each other, for example, “his ‘Our Father’ is longer than mine,” (of course until we “Protestantized” it in Church years later) and all this **** that made no difference to two little kids except to give them some idea that adults are weird and isolationist about their religions.
That’s why I am in favor of being fascinated by alternate views of religion rather than trying to crush alternate views. When one listens to others and their stories, the differences and similarities in the stories bring much to the table. After all, we keep saying there is an absolute underlying truth to everything but guess what? The Catholic Church is not the author of every true word ever spoken, and will not be the only ones to speak a true work in the future.
Personally I think that the Reformation may have saved the Church to prevent satan from prevailing against it. When you have a message or operating behavior that is unacceptable to a good chunk of the crowd, who knows that they might have destroyed the Church from within – if for nothing else just to stop the evil – and “thrown the baby out with the bathwater?” That is not to say the reformers were bathwater, but anyone who has had any kind of taste of a corrupt bureaucratic system, whether it be the Church at the parish or diocese level, a government or industry entity, knows how frustrating it is and how tempting to wish God (or at least somebody) would burn the whole thing down and start over. Reformation prevented that from having to take place. The Church may have preached wonderful things, but her practices of evil were apparently so widespread there wasn’t any reasonable way to separate the two. We should be thankful to Martin Luther, and pray for him, and yet we still have a Church with people who snip at each other on a regular basis, all the while chiding Protestants for having a different opinion. Hellloooo??? Is there intelligent life down here???
Alan
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
oops – guess I belong back in the Thread Killers’ Guild or something… 
P
Paris_Blues
Guest
Well, you know like many people say, "nothing can happen without God’s permission…unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_crazy.gif
Yes I can see that point but they went astray! Of course things needed to get better in the CC but not to the point where you leave the Truth and go off and say, “Hey folks, let’s go make our own truth what we think is true”. THAT’S okay?:ehh:
So all right, I suppose we can all shut up now and just listen to eachother’s side and say, well, you have your truth, I have my truth!:ehh:
Well, I heard one say thank goodness for heresy. Why? 'Cause the Truth still stands so I guess it was okay than…I guess there’s nothing we can really do about it because it already happened so we’ll just be nice to eachother.unity.enya.com/images/smiles/smiles_grin.gif
R
reen12
Guest
Well said, Alan:
quote: AlanFromWitchita
various realities and think: Perhaps that’s why God
allowed the Reformation.
Hat’s off, to the Evangelicals, for many many things.
I appreciated your post, Alan.
reen
quote: AlanFromWitchita
And I’ll tell you one thing: Sometimes, I look around at
various realities and think: Perhaps that’s why God
allowed the Reformation.
Hat’s off, to the Evangelicals, for many many things.
I appreciated your post, Alan.
reen
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Paris Blues:
To imagine that these people left the Church lightly, I think would be to do them a disservice so surely you don’t mean they did not agonize over this, or went to another Church because the Bingo games were better there or something. I don’t think entire segments of the population risk their lives unless there is something very wrong – kind of like Mutiny on the Bounty. Yes, technically the mutineers were criminals and Captain Bligh wasn’t. In Mutiny on the Bounty, it was over worldly things; how much worse would it have to be to create a new church under danger of being killed?
Consider an overriding principle: the whole PURPOSE of Christ coming here and giving us our faith was so that we would treat other Human Beings with dignity and love. If we or any other religion bashes others then we are working AGAINST Christ, not for Him.
As far as many truths, like it or not there are as many realities in this universe as there are thinkers. For each person, reality is the sum and total of how he/she perceives it all, plus all the past conditioning and behavior and choices, etc. In the days of the apostles, Churches were started in a matter of a couple days – if it were TRULY needed for any given Catholic to know the “full truth” all at once, then we’re all sunk.
Alan
You have a good point. Also people say, “all things work for the good of those who love Him.” Whether it was a bad situation or not, God can bring good out of anything, and that includes the Reformation. One way or other, it will become good so even if Satan set it up, it will simply be another “notch” in the sword of goodness when all is over.
Well, actually, yes. I think it is not OK but my responsibility to refuse to follow leaders who are leading me to sin. I don’t know how bad it was for them, but they risked their lives for a way to have their beliefs so I can only imagine how desperate it was for them. It isn’t like now, where one can just decide which religion one wants and go about a life – we’re talking back then people were systematically killed.
To imagine that these people left the Church lightly, I think would be to do them a disservice so surely you don’t mean they did not agonize over this, or went to another Church because the Bingo games were better there or something. I don’t think entire segments of the population risk their lives unless there is something very wrong – kind of like Mutiny on the Bounty. Yes, technically the mutineers were criminals and Captain Bligh wasn’t. In Mutiny on the Bounty, it was over worldly things; how much worse would it have to be to create a new church under danger of being killed?
Actually, yes, that would be a very good starting place. Right now we all yell at each other and scream, “you have your truth, I have my truth.” We might as well calm down and find out what the others’ truth is. We may even find out that more often than not they are just using different words for essentially the same things.
I’m not sure if you are talking tongue-in-cheek here, but I think it actually is a healthy start. The discussion was over whether satan was involved in it, I guess, and now we are talking about accepting it and getting along as Christians. If the Church wishes to believe that she, and only she, has the keys to the kingdom of God, then she had better start learning how to get these people back in and calling them names and belittling them isn’t going to do it. If they aren’t her sheep, then maybe she should leave them alone.
Consider an overriding principle: the whole PURPOSE of Christ coming here and giving us our faith was so that we would treat other Human Beings with dignity and love. If we or any other religion bashes others then we are working AGAINST Christ, not for Him.
As far as many truths, like it or not there are as many realities in this universe as there are thinkers. For each person, reality is the sum and total of how he/she perceives it all, plus all the past conditioning and behavior and choices, etc. In the days of the apostles, Churches were started in a matter of a couple days – if it were TRULY needed for any given Catholic to know the “full truth” all at once, then we’re all sunk.
Alan
- Status