The Devil's Battle Plan

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Bob,

Thanks for those anecdotes. Anecdotal evidence is what materialists lack. However, it doesn’t persuade them to hear it from those who have had the experience.

I have also on three separate occasions felt communications from the dead.

When I was a boy, my great grandfather died during the night. I dreamed he had died. But he died two thousand miles from where I lived.

When my grandfather died about a year later, I saw a faint apparition of him sitting in a chair near me.

When my mother died, the clock on my fireplace mantle stopped at the hour of her death. I didn’t notice it for several hours. Later I tried to wind it up, but it was broken.

None of these incidents is proof absolute of an afterlife. But God manages to hint now and then that He is there for us. Even the atheists and agnostics who visit this website are guided here by the whisperings of the Holy Spirit. The devil’s only recourse is tempting them to believe that we are the fools, not they.:rolleyes:
Thanks for the stories. From what I’ve heard around and about, the business of clocks stopping at someone’s death is relatively common. When my sister died about five years ago, I had this impulse to “Look at the clock! Look at the clock!” So I did. It was 10.23 if I remember rightly. We were shortly going to visit her in hospital again.

The clock didn’t stop, but about two minutes later her husband rang to say she’d died.

And I agree with your comment about atheists’ arrogance in judging anyone who has a religious bent, or claims spiritual experiences, as being off their meds.

I often get a sense of peace when someone dies, particularly if they’re a Christian that I know. It was very strong when my old Protestant pastor died (stronger with him than anybody else), I don’t always know who it is, but when I ask around I usually find that someone died around that time.

My other experiences have been three “double whammies” (like a breath going through you in waves from head to foot) used to highlight a message being spoken by someone else. I’ve had heavy gripping pressures at night, and a sinister change in the light to a sort of gloomy darkness, despiate the presence of street lights outside. And there are the odd coincidences.

One of the best was when I was debating with atheists on a google site re. NDE’s (Near Death Experiences). As usual I was getting nowhere, so I prayed I might meet someone who’d had an NDE. The experience with my father didn’t count - he was the one who had died, not me.

At the time (about two years ago), I was driving a Maxi Taxi a couple of days a week. About two days after the above prayer, I was sitting in the Cab at Boondall, a suburb not far from Nundah where my father died, although that’s not really relevant to this story.

On the screen a Maxi job came up for a suburb called Brighton. I procrastinated for while thinking someone closer would get it, but when it stayed there I put in for it and got it. It was for a nursing centre callled Eventide a few kilometres away. When I got there I found a bloke about my age, not in good health, who’d only wanted a normal cab. I’d only got the job as a Maxi because of a mistake basically. Anyway he wanted to go to Royal Brisbane Hospital, which was quite a good fare from there.

But we’d only been going a couple of kilometres when he remarked, “I’m one of those rare people”. I asked him what he was talking about, He repiied that he’d been technically dead for ten minutes. We spoke about it on the way to the hospital. He said he could still hear everything that was being said, experienced the usual white light, etc.

But what got me was that he went to the same high school as the eldest son of the very same uncle who’d come to tell me my own father had died.

How’s that for “co-incidence”? Ask a prayer and have it answered in two days, with the job reserved for you by a glitch or mistake, and then find there’s an almost family relationship to the peculiar event when my own father died. And Greater Brisbane has a population of well over a million people.
 
How’s that for “co-incidence”?

I do not have time to recount all the experiences in my life when I felt, either at the time, or later, that an angel’s hand had guided me away from some disaster.

I try to remember that and thank my guardian angel for the struggles endured while protecting me from accidents or the devil’s designs.

As a child I was nearly kidnapped, but felt a sudden inspiration to evade my captors.

On other occasions I have felt sudden impulses to act in ways that later proved to save me from harm or disaster.

An atheist would call it luck. I call it Amazing Grace!

Deo gratias!
 
How’s that for “co-incidence”?

I do not have time to recount all the experiences in my life when I felt, either at the time, or later, that an angel’s hand had guided me away from some disaster.

I try to remember that and thank my guardian angel for the struggles endured while protecting me from accidents or the devil’s designs.

As a child I was nearly kidnapped, but felt a sudden inspiration to evade my captors.
Does that mean that God loves you more than all the kids that actually were kidnapped?
 
Leela
*
The reason it is an important question to answer is that if the world without the devil is no difference than the world with the devil, then it is meaningless to say that the devil exists, so I’m wondering what you can mean when you say that he does. *

But the world is not without the devil. There being no such world, how can I speculate on what it would be like?

Should I also speculate on what the world would be like without pizza? Pure hell, I imagine. :eek::eek::eek: 👍

Since you don’t believe in the devil, for you it wouldn’t really be speculation, would it?

I’m wondering why God would allow the devil to influence people.

Because God is a dramatist and needs a villain to complicate the plot?
I’m just trying to figure out what it means when you say that the devil exists. What does the devil do? What is the devil’s function in God’s plan? Could the devil make me do something I don’t want to do? How could the devil harm me? How can I protect mysefl against the devil?
 
moonstruck

A Wiccan to turn round and say that true spirituality is hardly satisfied by making protestations of undying love to something that isn’t there in a church every Sunday morning…

He’s there for me, and for you.

*I thought Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians were the ravings of a madman, probably in the throes of epilepsy, which would be untreatable and misunderstood at the time. *

What was for you the most offensive passage?

It would be the same offensive trivialisation of someone else’s spirituality and assumption of being holier than thou.

“holier than thou” … Precisely what Christ preached against. We agree.
For one thing, that is not the thing you said that offended me, and for another, I am an atheist my friend. I have no doctrine that tells me I have to be nice, and I’m not nice to people who are unpleasant to me. If someone smites me on the cheek, I’m quite happy to smash him on his.

If I feel the same spiritual connection to nature as you do your God, what makes your spiritual feeling any different to mine?
 
moonstruck

*If I feel the same spiritual connection to nature as you do your God, what makes your spiritual feeling any different to mine? *

You cannot possibly feel the same connection to nature, because nature is not a person, whereas God is Three Persons. However, you can feel the reflection of God’s being in the beauties of nature, and I suspect that is what you will settle for as a spiritual experience.

Do you believe there is a person in nature? If so, that is not the usual atheist line. Tell me more.

I am an atheist my friend. I have no doctrine that tells me I have to be nice,

And that is one of the fundamental defect of atheism, that it is altogether without a moral base, as you have just granted.
 
moonstruck

*If I feel the same spiritual connection to nature as you do your God, what makes your spiritual feeling any different to mine? *

You cannot possibly feel the same connection to nature, because nature is not a person, whereas God is Three Persons. However, you can feel the reflection of God’s being in the beauties of nature, and I suspect that is what you will settle for as a spiritual experience.

Do you believe there is a person in nature? If so, that is not the usual atheist line. Tell me more.
No, I don’t and I see no reason why spiritual connections can only be made with “a person” per se? If YOU need a person to connect to, fine, that’s up to you… I do not need “a person” to feel spiritually connected.

I would put it to you that you are the man who lacks faith and has only doubt, or you shouldn’t need to put everyone else down to raise yourself up… I would put it to you that spirituality can be experienced in as many ways as there are human beings. There are no hard and fast rules.
And that is one of the fundamental defect of atheism, that it is altogether without a moral base, as you have just granted.
A moral base?

An admonishment to murder rebellious children? Permission to sell women as sex slaves? An imperative to murder non believers?

If that’s the cure for my moral relativism, I’ll stick with the disease thank you.
 
Leela

*I’m just trying to figure out what it means when you say that the devil exists. What does the devil do? What is the devil’s function in God’s plan? Could the devil make me do something I don’t want to do? How could the devil harm me? How can I protect mysefl against the devil? *

Again I refer you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, where you will get the official answers by looking at the page reference in the index under* Devil*.

When you have read those pages, we can talk more.

*Does that mean that God loves you more than all the kids that actually were kidnapped? *

No. God cannot prevent every evil. This is by His own will. We cannot be free unless we can choose between good and evil. God’s gift of freedom has many strings attached, not least of which is that sometimes evil triumphs.

But God can, and has, intervened to prevent some evils. The life of Christ is proof enough of that. Christ performed many miracles, but doubtless many who needed a miracle in Israel did not get one from him. That doesn’t mean he did not love those who needed a miracle.

In my case I had just been baptized at the age of ten when, several months later, the attempt to kidnap me occurred. I was coming out of school to get my bike and ride home. My bike had a flat tire. Just then a car pulled up beside me and the front passenger door opened. A man and woman sat in the front seat, and two boys in the back seat. The woman noted that I had a flat tire, and the man offered to give me a ride home. He invited me to get in the back seat with the other boys. I declined. Then he insisted in a louder voice that they just wanted to help me out. The back door opened and I saw the two boys inside looking very scared … as if they were telegraphing a message to me. I said no again and started walking my bike home, now pretty nervous in my gut. The car followed me at a crawl all the way home. When I pulled into the driveway, my mother came out to greet me. I pointed to the car at the corner and told her those people had followed me home. The car then sped off. My mother reported the incident to the school principal, who confirmed that he had received other calls of a similar nature.

I believe other children also escaped the clutches of these devils.

To this day I believe the Devil had a battle plan in my case. That flat tire was created before I got out of school. But those boys, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and certain guardian angels, used their eyes to save my life and possibly the lives of others. I have never forgotten them, and will remember them with my dying breath. They too were victims, but hopefully by their courage and the help of their angels, they too escaped … if not in youth, in their later life their suffering may have served some plan of God rather than the devil.
 
moonstruck

I would put it to you that you are the man who lacks faith and has only doubt, or you shouldn’t need to put everyone else down to raise yourself up.

What is the source of your profound anger?

Is everyone who disagrees with you guilty of lacking your faith or of putting you down to raise himself up?

This is a Catholic website. We have every right to assert that we have the truth. If that makes you uncomfortable, we are sorry for your hurt. But we don’t need to retreat from the truths we believe in to assuage your anger.

Try not to over react to perceived slights. We try to do the same when outright insults and blasphemies are shouted in this forum by atheists.
 
moonstruck

I would put it to you that you are the man who lacks faith and has only doubt, or you shouldn’t need to put everyone else down to raise yourself up.

What is the source of your profound anger?

Is everyone who disagrees with you guilty of lacking your faith or of putting you down to raise himself up?

This is a Catholic website. We have every right to assert that we have the truth. If that makes you uncomfortable, we are sorry for your hurt. But we don’t need to retreat from the truths we believe in to assuage your anger.

Try not to over react to perceived slights. We try to do the same when outright insults and blasphemies are shouted in this forum by atheists.
I’m not angry. I’m just a very straight talking guy, unfortunately at the expense of good manners sometimes. I apologise if I have offended.

You have the right to assert that you have the only truth. I have the right to consider that to be un-Christlike arrogance. Isn’t humility a Catholic virtue?
 
Reading these posts, I am reminded of the saying that for those who believe no explanation is necessary; for those who don’t believe no explanation is sufficient.

Supernatural evidence does not necessarily convert a non-believer, but it often does. When Our Lady of Fatima appeared to the three children in 1917 to warn of the spread of Russia’s “errors” throughout the world “promoting wars and pesecution of the Church” and that nations would be “annihilated”, she sealed her words with an incredibly awesome miracle. On October 13, with people from near and far, including atheistic government officials, who once held the children captive and threatened them with being put into boiling oil if they didn’t retract their belief in the apparitions, the sun spun around and around and then zig-zagged to earth. People screamed thinking it was the end of the world. Afterwards, all the wet and soggy clothes of the crowd (for it had been raining and the streets were muddy) were suddenly dry. Many atheistic officials were converted and told their story. (If nothing else works to convert someone, the threat of hellfire might! :eek:) (I have a book detailing what was said by the last of the witnesses, since many have already died. That’s why this information was gathered).

Our Lady appeared from May 13th to Oct.13. In the July apparition, she opened her hands,and Lucia describes the vision:

“The light from them seemed to penetrate the earth, and we saw a sea of fire. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls that looked like transparent embers, some black or bronze, in human form, driven about by the flames that issued from within themselves together with clouds of smoke. They were falling on all sides, just as sparks cascade from great fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid cries of pain and despair which horrified us so that we trembled with fear. It must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as the people say they heard me exclaim aloud. The demons could be distinguished by their likeness to terrible, loathsome and unknown animals, transparent as live coals. Terrified and as if to plead for succour, we raised our eyes to Our Lady, who said to us kndly but sadly: 'You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. In order to save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.”

Our Lady goes on in this vein predicting the start of a greater war than WWI warning of a sign God will give (Lucia said she saw strange lights in the sky just days before WWII started–scientists claimed it was an unusual aurora borealis which was seen throughout most of Europe.

There is more about God’s requests for peace which can be found online. The Rosary is the weapon of choice.

Coincidently (?), on May 13, 1981, there was an assassination attempt on His Holiness, Pope John Paul II. One of the visions (part of the secret kept hidden for years) involved a “biishop clothed in white” who is making his way to the Cross with great effort and falls to the ground apparently dead, under the burst of gunfire. The man who shot the Holy Father, Ali Agca, was obsessed with the mystery of Fatima.

Again: For those who believe, no explanation . . .
 
Now this was (largely) an interesting thread.

But what about politics - particularly democracy.
We elect people to be benevolent dictators.

To make decisions for the greater good; to care for the voters and the planet at large.
But for these guys to get into a position where they can do some good; they have to lie, cheat and become part of sections that are totally against their starting beliefs and ideals. So, we end up with people that have truly sold their soul (maybe not to the Devil, but close); and have very little integrity left.

The only good politicians are 6 ft under and pushing up daisies! 😃
 
*You have the right to assert that you have the only truth. I have the right to consider that to be un-Christlike arrogance. Isn’t humility a Catholic virtue? *

Humility is a virtue, but it does not encompass either admitting that we do not have the truth or that other “truths” are equal to the truth that Christ taught. It is Christlike to assert that Christ taught the truth and that all “truths” opposed to Christ are false.

Only from a relativist point of view would anyone say that all truths are equally true.

This is what the devil wants to hear, because then he can get his “truth” onto the table.
 
*You have the right to assert that you have the only truth. I have the right to consider that to be un-Christlike arrogance. Isn’t humility a Catholic virtue? *

Humility is a virtue, but it does not encompass either admitting that we do not have the truth or that other “truths” are equal to the truth that Christ taught. It is Christlike to assert that Christ taught the truth and that all “truths” opposed to Christ are false.

Only from a relativist point of view would anyone say that all truths are equally true.

This is what the devil wants to hear, because then he can get his “truth” onto the table.
It’s funny, I don’t recall Christ ever stating in the gospels that spirituality could only be achieved through Dogma.

Nor did Christ ever say that anything opposed to him was false. As a matter of fact, Christ issued some stern warnings about standing in judegment of others…
 
*It’s funny, I don’t recall Christ ever stating in the gospels that spirituality could only be achieved through Dogma.

Nor did Christ ever say that anything opposed to him was false. As a matter of fact, Christ issued some stern warnings about standing in judegment of others… *

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
John 14:6

Sounds dogmatic enough to me. “no one”
 
*It’s funny, I don’t recall Christ ever stating in the gospels that spirituality could only be achieved through Dogma.

Nor did Christ ever say that anything opposed to him was false. As a matter of fact, Christ issued some stern warnings about standing in judegment of others… *

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
John 14:6

Sounds dogmatic enough to me. “no one”
It stops well short of saying that no one can have a spiritual experience without believing in a monotheistic deity…
 
Does that mean that God loves you more than all the kids that actually were kidnapped?
I made an assertion that “clocks stopping” when someone dies is a comparatively common occurrence. Readers might find the follownig link helpful.

answerbag.com/q_view/981641

On Charlemagne’s behalf, I’ll add two stories I heard a Baptist minister give during a sermon some years ago. Twice he had his life saved by supernatural interference.

On the first occasion, he was sitting with his back to an old concrete water tower, reading a book. Suddenly a voice from nowhere yelled at him, “Alan! Run!!” He took off and was doing a hundred metre sprint in seconds. As he did, the tower just collapsed behind him. He said he’d have been killed if he stayed there.

On the second occasion, he was following his father through long grass on the family farm (if I remember rightly). Suddenly he found he ***could not *** take another step. He said it was like being held in a giant hand. He was held perfectly immobile against his will.

His father wondered why he wasn’t following and came back to see what was going on. But as he got close to Alan he spotted a death adder lurking in the grass where Alan would have taken his next step. Yet Alan didn’t know it was there. So either God or an angel had directly interfered and saved his life.

Now I don’t know, and Charlemagne doesn’t know, why either he or the future Baptist pastor had their lives saved in this way when so many others do not.

But then why was Adolf Hitler allowed to rule so brutally over millions, while others were only allowed to be victims? Why did Christ come at the time He did, and launch Peter and others into the history books when otherwise they would simply have disappeared in the limbo of the unknown? Why does one person get cancer and another not? Why were you probably born into a wealthy country, while someone else doesn’t have enough to eat all their life?

These questions are just as valid if God is responsible for human life. And the answer is that we don’t know.

But we do know what we’ve experienced for ourselves.
 
Another story lifted off the web re. clocks stopping when people die. As I said earlier, there’s a spiritual world out there.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&777

My father bought my mother a lovely musical clock decorated with mother of pearl. Every quarter of an hour it would play the tune ‘Home Sweet Home’. When dad died the clock was given to my son.

Soon afterwards my son was taken seriously ill. We were worrying about him when the clock started chiming ‘Home Sweet Home’. But it wouldn’t stop and continued playing the song without stopping. When the mechanism finally ran down and we heard the final chime, my son died.

After that event I hung the clock on the wall but could never bring myself to wind it up again. However a friend who took an interest in mending clocks asked if he could fix it for me. He repaired it and for a few months it hung on the wall working perfectly.

Then it went wrong again and the bad memories came flooding back as it repeated ‘Home Sweet Home’ over and over again. I rang my friend who had repaired it to be told some bad news. At the very minute that the clock had stopped his son had died from a heart attack.
 
Then it went wrong again and the bad memories came flooding back as it repeated ‘Home Sweet Home’ over and over again. I rang my friend who had repaired it to be told some bad news. At the very minute that the clock had stopped his son had died from a heart attack.

These stories can be multiplied millions of times by millions of people. I have learned to look for the signs, when before I thought I had accomplished something on my own or by sheer luck.

Several years ago I was attending a Mass to celebrate the 10th anniversary of the founding of our parish, Holy Spirit. I happened to have my camera with me and decided to take a photo of the Bishop incensing the altar at the start of the Mass. When I clicked the camera an image startled me of what was going to be the later finished picture. Hmm, I thought. This will be interesting.

Since then I have had the photo enlarged and framed for a wall picture in the gathering space of our church. Dozens of people have commented on the spiritual quality of the photo, the incense smoke curling upward and through it visible the great huge crucifix behind the altar, enveloped by the smoke but shining through like a ghostly presence.

None of this wonderful photo was to the credit of the bishop incensing the altar or me taking the photo (I know next to nothing about photography). It was a matter of the bishop and I being in exactly the right place at the right time, brought together by the Holy Spirit.

Always look for the signs. Spiritual forces are at work. Both for good and for evil.
 
And the answer is that we don’t know.

But we do know what we’ve experienced for ourselves.
This is just right. But why not just say that certain things are mysteries to us. Mystery + the devil is still a mystery, so the devil just doesn’t explain anything
 
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