The difference in salvation

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andrewstx said:
Steve I was raised in the “church of Christ”, and to my childhood congregation baptism (as a mature beleiver, by total immersion) was one of the five steps of salvation. Hear gospel,beleive, confess Christ, repent, and immersion baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

That is what I was taught, and was baptised at age 16.

This was an accapella “church of Christ”, where we were taught there were no other Christians but us. Others were called “members of denominations”.

Is this the same CofC you belong to? OR are there other churches going by that name that teach baptism is optional or done after you “get saved”?,
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Some is the same. We believe and teach the five steps of salvation and baptism by immersion. As far as I know all Churches of Christ and Christian Churches teach that baptism is part of coming to Christ. However, we are a small church and don’t have a baptistry ready 24/7. Sometimes people will call the minister ahead of time and tell him they want to be baptized after church, or we wait a few hours, or days, or next week if someone spontaneously comes forward. I don’t believe that person is “not saved yet” if they have to wait to be immersed and if something happened to end their life before being baptised I wouldn’t think they were lost. But let me add that I believe people should be baptised as soon as possible after their confession of Christ.
Also, we don’t believe we are the only Christians but part of the world-wide body of Christ. We don’t check someone’s “baptismal status” when passing communion and we have regular worshippers who are Catholic, Weslyans, and Methodist. Hope this answered your questions.
 
stevekehl said:
Some is the same. We believe and teach the five steps of salvation and baptism by immersion. As far as I know all Churches of Christ and Christian Churches teach that baptism is part of coming to Christ. However, we are a small church and don’t have a baptistry ready 24/7. Sometimes people will call the minister ahead of time and tell him they want to be baptized after church, or we wait a few hours, or days, or next week if someone spontaneously comes forward. I don’t believe that person is “not saved yet” if they have to wait to be immersed and if something happened to end their life before being baptised I wouldn’t think they were lost. But let me add that I believe people should be baptised as soon as possible after their confession of Christ.
Also, we don’t believe we are the only Christians but part of the world-wide body of Christ. We don’t check someone’s “baptismal status” when passing communion and we have regular worshippers who are Catholic, Weslyans, and Methodist. Hope this answered your questions.
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Yes I would immagine there would be differences, even between midwest csofC and csofC in the south and southwest where they along with the baptists are predominate.

I never will forget one sunday a boy wanted baptism and his non-ordianed teacher dad popped up from his chair and did the baptism.

Of course no one in the cofC is ordained and they have no seminaries.

I left the cofC shortly after graduation, becuase of the idolatry I felt was dirrected at the bible. They had no music becuase the bible did not demand it’s use. Anything not ordered to be done in the bible was verbotten. The preacher in that congregation actually called the bible “God” and that I felt went way too far.

That cofC taught they were the only Christians and everyone else was going to hell. Once I asked the youth minister in Wed night bible class what would happen to those who lived and died before the cofC was invented and he said “we will just have tp leave them up to God’s judgement”.

When I left and became Catholic my family told me I had left THE church and Christ. I was the black sheep, and when my dad died I found that I was also disinherited and disowned.

I hope things are better in Ohio, but here such a story is commonplace.😦
 
stevekehl said:
andrewstx;8515873:
The Churches of Christ do ordain ministers, elders and deacons. There are also Bible colleges and universities which train CoC ministers, Cincinnati Bible University, Great Lakes Bible College, Johnson Bible College and Kentucky Christian University are some I know off the top of my head, Ohio Christian University may be another (not sure). In the CoC an immersed Christian can baptize anyone who asks. As far as I know, all CoC baptisms are done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for the remission of sins and the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

Calling the Bible “God” is going too far, and people sometimes do take single verses, or parts of verses, as a basis for doctrine. This is contrary to orthodox CoC teaching. While we do base our belief on what is found in Scripture, there must be several verses teaching that doctrine. For example, there is a verse that says speak to each other with hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs. Since the verse says “speak to each other” some people believe there should be no music in church. However, no where else is there a suggestion of singing without music. In fact, Genesis tells of Jubal the inventor of music, who used it to worship God. Having or not having music in church is a preference and has no effect on our salvation.

That’s kind of a blow off comment, it also implies that those who died before the CoC or never heard of the CoC are in danger of hell. The early CoC had a saying “We are Christians only, but not the only Christians.” It explained that we are Christians (not a cult with Christian trappings), but were also a part of the larger body of Christ. Unfortunately, some have lost sight of that.

I’m sorry to hear that. Legalism has replaced Phariseeism for some Christians. So manye say they want unity in the body of Christ, but what they mean is they want everyone to agree with them. I hope you are able to forgive your family and keep praying for reconcilliation (grandkids can really bridge some gaps, along with numerous other blessings;)). Remember, you can’t sontrol how people treat you, you can only control how you treat others.

Speaking for my little church, they are. I am blessed that God lead me to such a loving and accepting group of believers.
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I am glad to hear that Midwest csofC are very different from southern csofC. Apparently you belong to an Independent Christian Church which in some areas is called the church of Christ.

Southern csof C are really diffgerent and like so much in the south is ultra-conservative.

Actually there are different denominations all using the name church of Christ in the south. The main cofc which has no instruments.

The one that is the same but plays an instrument.

The cofC which has no sunday-school classes.

The cofC that does not financially support orphanages, and schools.

The cofCs that only pass one glass of grape juice.

the cofC that passes individual glasses of grape juice.

All of these institutions that think they are THE one and only church Christ has and condeming all others to hell.

The southern csofC ordain no one and everyone is the same that is why the layman dad baptised his son and not the preacher. They have a few Universities where you can major in “bible”, but they don’t offer theology. They also have a tiny group of “preaching schools” where all they do is teach how to preach.

And the southern csofC do think they are the only Christians, asking are you a Baptist Lutheran, Catholic or a Christian reffering only to their denomination as “christian”.
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christosdavid said:
Predestination is not simply Calvinist, don’t forget how much Calvin relied on St. Augustine. Even with the hardening of reprobation.

Predestination is Catholic, whether you explain it as Augustine, Aquinas or Molina. These explanations of Predestination and Perseverance of the Saints are Scriptural and enshrined in our Tradition.

Further, Grace only is also Catholic. Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism were condemned in the 5th C. Nobody earns grace! It is God’s gift!
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I don’t think you understand the Calvinist definition of predestination.

“God’s eternal decree, by which He compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others(Inst. III, 21, 5).”

reformedtheology.ca/calvin.html

Calvin believed we have absolutely no say in whether we are saved or not. Calvin taught that God decided it for us, completely disavowing the concept of free will, which is fundamental to Catholic belief. You are not Catholic, so maybe you don’t believe that each individual decides their own destination. But that goes completely against Catholic belief. Predestination is most definitely **NOT **Catholic, and I really don’t think most Protestants believe in it, either. If they did, why would they be trying to convert the world to their beliefs. Please be careful in what you are posting. You don’t want to lead others astray.
 
I am reading a book right now about predestination.

It is called The Mystery of Predestination and the author is John Salza. It is a look at predestination from a Catholic perspective.

It has taken me a long time to even read this book because i was a Protestant for so long and I was wary of it.

amazon.com/dp/0895559056/ref%3Dasc_df_08955590561658418/%3Ftag%3Daskcom05el-20%26creative%3D394997%26creativeASIN%3D0895559056%26linkCode%3Dasn

Book Description

Publication Date: April 2, 2010

How can an all-loving God choose some people for eternal salvation while permitting others to fall away? Doesn’t God offer the same amount of saving grace to everyone? Isn’t predestination a Protestant doctrine?

In The Mystery of Predestination , author and apologist John Salza, seeks to answer these questions, and others, about that most ineffable and confounding of Christian beliefs: that God chooses to infallibly direct certain people to salvation but not others.

Drawing deeply upon Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, Salza says that a proper Catholic understanding of the doctrine of predestination is interconnected with two other central mysteries: the ability of mankind to choose freely to accept or reject God’s saving grace, and the inability of mankind to accept God’s grace without first being moved by His grace from within.

By holding these truths always before us we can see how God may predestine His elect to heaven but never desire that anyone go to hell. We can also achieve a new clarity and depth of insight into a profound Christian truth: God is the primary mover in salvation. It is He who chooses, seeks, and saves us.

Meticulously researched and written in a scholarly yet accessible style, The Mystery of Predestination is perfect for the serious Catholic who is confused by Bible verses or Magisterial statements in favor of predestination (and never hears about it in Sunday sermons), or who wants to defend Catholic truth against Calvinist error, and is seeking clear, traditional, and Thomistic answers. Or, indeed, for any thoughtful Christian who wants to come to terms with what the Bible teaches about the fundamental truths of our salvation.
 
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