The dilemma of free will and necessary evil

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Hitetlen,

Alvin Plantinga is a Calvanist philosopher, who uses God as an axiom.

OK, but I am Catholic – and come from a different tradition than Alvin, so much of what he says will probably be lost in translation.

Yes, I am speaking of logical impossibilities – but not all. Being able to make arbitrary decisions (equivalent to random) is not impossible.

However, when you assert that it is in a utilitarian sense that the evil is “necessary” – I am afraid that I begin laughing. I can’t agree that God is utilitarian, so I must ask for further clarification.
What is utilitarian about a hurricane – from Alvins standpoint – since he seems to assert that Satin himself is the cause of hurricanes. Satan is not ethical…
 
Huiou Theou:
Hmm … “some” could be as small as 10 or 20. Even if everyone changed, after 100years or so statistically after any given event – the earthly mass attendees would be 0.

I’m a little bit lazy. The Catholic Church is growing in total number of people, statistically. So, how have you analyzed these statistics to show that even “some” are not permanently changed?
It may grow someplace, but the Vatican complains about decreasing attendance. And proportionally, they shrink. Some charismatic and evangelical churches (Protestant) are experiencing a growth, especially in the former communist countries, but in Western Europe church attendance is lower than ever, and it keeps shrinking.

However, this is irrelevant to the purposes of this thread.
 
Huiou Theou:
However, when you assert that it is in a utilitarian sense that the evil is “necessary” – I am afraid that I begin laughing. I can’t agree that God is utilitarian, so I must ask for further clarification.
Hold it. ***I ***am not arguing that “evil” is necessary. Here is a purely logical analysis:
  1. God, if exists, is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.
  2. If God is omniscient, he knows about a possible evil.
  3. If God is omnipotent, he can fix a possible evil.
  4. If God is omnibenevolent, God wants to correct a possible evil.
  5. Nevertheless, evil exists.
  6. Therefore God is either not omniscient, or not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.
  7. Therefore God does not exist.
This is a simple set of arguments. Believers, however, do not wish to accept it, and bring up all sorts of “explanations” to refute it.

These “explanations” vary in scope and depth. One of them is trying to insinuate that God tolerates some amount of evil, because it has positive side effects, which are greater than the negative direct effects of the evil itself. That is strictly a utilitarian approach.

Another one tries to prove that human free will is very important. God does not want “robots” and thus he is willing to tolerate some evil, because it is the corollary of free will. This attempt is bogus, the existence of free will does not explain the existence of evil, only the possibility of evil.

There is the “soul-building” explanation, which I refuted just above. I doubt that it will do a whole lot of good. People simply want to believe, no matter how irrational it is.
 
It may grow someplace, but the Vatican complains about decreasing attendance. And proportionally, they shrink. Some charismatic and evangelical churches (Protestant) are experiencing a growth, especially in the former communist countries, but in Western Europe church attendance is lower than ever, and it keeps shrinking.
hmmm…
My parish is made up mostly of old people (baby boomer generation), there are less of my generation.
Hence as old people die (not loose faith) my parish shrinks.
There are not enough of my generation to replace them.

I think your analysis needs to be more thourough if it is to be convincing. I’ll keep an open mind though…
 
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Hitetlen:
Statistics and history.
Then demonstrate this as a general fact.
font=Verdana]Is there a permanent upsurge in mass attendance after a disaster?
I don’t know, but you write as if you do know.
If those who perish in a fire, earthqauke or tsunami could respond, their reply probably would be censored out by the sorfware.
Those in heaven? I doubt it. Those in hell? They also have achieved what they desired.
Besides, your reply looks suspiciously close to those “do-gooders” who are always very willing to “endure” someone else’s misfortune.
Your reply, in return, looks suspiciously close to being rude and ad hominem. It is a fact of human existence that misfortune is to be endured. If you have another solution please offer it. I have not argued that the misfortune of others is to be ignored, so your reply makes no sense to me. In fact, Catholic teaching is that we are to be very attendant to the misfortune of others. But Catholic teaching is also that life on earth is not an end unto itself (a sorry end that would be!), but the beginning of a journey which will end in perfect love and joy or perfect lovelessness and joylessness. You sound a bit like a utopian, who’s only goal is human perfection on this earth. Not only will this never happen (at least, not until the second coming), societies who persue it with the most vigor end up causing a great deal of the evil in this world.
Irrelevant. People would not be born with equal capabilities, so some would still need help.
Genetic engineering can fix that, can’t it? More to the point, to claim that my comment is irrelevant is to claim that a world without evil (or even a world without “excessive” evil) will make no difference in the human condition. To say the least, I am not convinced.
 
Hitetlen,

It was you who typed the assertion, not your personal opinion I was referring to.

Utilitarianism justifies the evil on the basis of the end.
I have never agreed, nor does Alvin as far as I can tell, that God justifies the evil in terms of the end.

Assertion (3) in your list is not a freestanding assertion, but is bounded by logical possibility and impossibility.

Assertion (4) is logically dependent upon gift giving – and is logically bound by what God wishes to give. Not everything is given to everyone – or they would be God. Hence theists do not hold assertion (4) in an unqualified sense either.

Only the assertion about omniscient is without qualification.

These qualifications do not allow one to logically assert (6)(7).
In order to hold a reductio-absurdam – you must show that all possibilities are accounted for, and hence that all qualifications are accounted for.
 
Huiou Theou:
Assertion (3) in your list is not a freestanding assertion, but is bounded by logical possibility and impossibility.
Well, then you say that fixing evils is somehow a logical impossibility? How do you plan to substantiate that? Do you assert that weeding out possible murderers violates the laws of logic? Making the crust of the Earth more stable to prevent quakes is beyond God’s omnipotence? What kind of “evil” can you bring up, which cannot be fixed due to a logical contradiction? I am all ears.
Huiou Theou:
Assertion (4) is logically dependent upon gift giving – and is logically bound by what God wishes to give. Not everything is given to everyone – or they would be God. Hence theists do not hold assertion (4) in an unqualified sense either.
Maybe some of them don’t, but what is the relevance? Someone who allows pain and suffering, when he could alleviate it is not benevolent, giving “free” gifts notwithstanding.
 
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VociMike:
It is a fact of human existence that misfortune is to be endured. If you have another solution please offer it.
Easy as a breeze for an omnipotent being.
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VociMike:
Those in heaven? I doubt it. Those in hell? They also have achieved what they desired.
Are you qualified to speak for them?
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VociMike:
But Catholic teaching is also that life on earth is not an end unto itself (a sorry end that would be!), but the beginning of a journey which will end in perfect love and joy or perfect lovelessness and joylessness.
That is your belief, not mine.
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VociMike:
You sound a bit like a utopian, who’s only goal is human perfection on this earth.
Since the existence here on Earth is beyond doubt, I think it is an admirable goal. I like the old proverb: “a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush”.
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VociMike:
Not only will this never happen (at least, not until the second coming), societies who persue it with the most vigor end up causing a great deal of the evil in this world.
None of those societies have the benefit of omnipotence.
 
We haven’t agreed on definitions yet, so it would be premature to give your ears much of anything.

What is evil?
So far, you have demonstrated the idea of pain and suffering.
However, what makes them evil – exactly?

My nerves give me information about the world around me – the toothache, the sunllight, in moderation they are in fact enjoyable.
If the toothache is very mild, it might just mean I am breathing on cold teeth.

What, exactly, is evil about pain then? the intensity? or the thought that someone else is inflicting it on you? or what?

Suffering as a result of pain depends on pain, so let’s stick with pain for a moment.
 
Huiou Theou:
What is evil?
So far, you have demonstrated the idea of pain and suffering.
However, what makes them evil – exactly?
Very well. I think this should be in a new thread, but let’s give a short definition. Evil is the intentional causing of or not preventing pain and/or suffering, when there is another method available, which causes less pain, all other things being equal. (When talking about the “problem of evil” in general, this definition is expanded to incorporate natural disasters. This expansion muddies the waters somewhat, and I am not happy that it became an accepted norm.)
 
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Hitetlen:
Well, then you say that fixing evils is somehow a logical impossibility? How do you plan to substantiate that? Do you assert that weeding out possible murderers violates the laws of logic?
plantinga’s argument for transworld depravity concludes exactly that…

once you get through the modal complications of the argument, it amounts to the simple idea that since it’s possible that everyone suffers from transworld depravity, and thus that it’s possible that it’s logically impossible for god to create free beings that do not commit evil, then the deductive argument for the non-existence of god from evil straightforwardly fails.
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Hitetlen:
Making the crust of the Earth more stable to prevent quakes is beyond God’s omnipotence?
the so-called “natural” evils are useful to your argument only if you can successfully make the argument that it is logically impossible for there to be good reasons for permitting pain and suffering. and you can’t. which, again, means that your argument fails as a piece of deductive reasoning. which is hardly surprising, since the battleground on which you’re proposing to fight was vacated years ago in favor of the less treacherous environs of the inductive argument from evil: namely that the existence of evil makes the existence of god less likely.

and that one doesn’t work so well, either…
 
Hitetlen,

I am only saying that without possibility of evil resulting from freewill it is not freewill.

When God performs miracles he does not control the choices of human beings. He intervenes in nature not freewill. And intervening in freewil is what God relinquished.

The benefits of evil do not “top off.” They are potentially limitless as far as we can be concerned. That does not mean the more evil the better. Just because there is more evil for people to respond righteously to, does not mean they will respond righteously to it.

The remaining evil is not necessary. You refuse to use a combination theodicy. The remaining evil must then be either due to punishment, freewill, mystery or a mix. A dad spanking his child one time more than the child will respond wll to may punishment to the child forthe evil and the result of the freewill of the father, which God has promised not to intervene with. If God intervened in the freewill of the father he would be intervening in freewill. And we’ve already seen that refusing to create him in the first place is also limiting the choices permited in a world and thus freewill. God promises not to do such things.

The people who die from evil if they were not desiring the favor of God will go to hell for eternal punishment. That is the punishment for doing evil without God’s grace to save you after you’ve comitted it. The people who were in God’s graces when they died go to purgatory if they still have not lost attachment to evil or have not been punished enough for their earthly evils. If they have done this on earth they go to heaven straight away. God will be perfectly fair to you and adjust judgement according to your situation.

Remember my karma thing? There is an imbalance in the evil doer’s soul. He took something not his so God will take something from him or give him something he doesn’t want. This corrects the universal justice. If you don’t belive in it ask further about it later.

The victims had something taken that was theirs so God will reward them, if not here on earth than in heaven.

If you wish to reply just to exactly how you stated the first post I will. It has a lot of mistakes that we could talk about. And I thought the base question was “why does God allow evil?” If you do not permit me the use of theodicies to nswer I’m afraid I will not be able. That would be like saying get from virginia to california. The theodicies are like vehicles. You wish me to walk 3000 miles. Well since you want an answer sooner than that you wish me to run. The theodicies answer your problem denying use of them is denying the answer. Is this what you want?

I too find your position completely irrational and am in a better position to comment on rationality, being that is what I study. In your world the souls are already built. This means they beings didn’t have to do it themselves, they had everything handed to them. You said natural evils exist just not moral evils. Well then these beings are less moral than the moral beings in our world who must respond to varyinf moral evils. Angel’s souls are already built to. However they can choose to tear them down. These people in your world, again, cannot. God has intervened so as to only allow certain types of choices. No amount of reward is worth any suffering. This is why the sacrifices we make are so significant. God will reward those who suffer in the next life if they wish to be rewarded.

Adam
 
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Hitetlen:
People simply want to believe, no matter how irrational it is.
and there are those who simply want to disbelieve, no matter how irrational it is…
 
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Hitetlen:
Here is a purely logical analysis:
  1. God, if exists, is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.
  2. Therefore God does not exist.
    People simply want to believe, no matter how irrational it is.
Again: you always forget ”incomprehensible”.
The deep falseness of your argument just reveals your own deep invincible shallowness.
 
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Hitetlen:
Suppose you show me why the dilemma is false, then I can answer your questions.
My friend the burden is on you to show why they are dichotomous.I will indeed attempt to show you why these ideas are not opposed to one another, they are not mutually exclusive. However, I will not waste my time if you just want an intellectual scuffle. If this is a stumbling block to you comming to believe, then i will attempt to address it. But I will not if your intent is questionable.

so I restate my previous questions.
Suppose i provide a solution to this false dillema you have proposed, what will come of it? Will you be any closer to believing in God? Is that not the ends for which you are striving? Do you suppose there is no solution? What is your motivation for posting this thread?
 
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Hitetlen:
Hold it. ***I ***am not arguing that “evil” is necessary. Here is a purely logical analysis:
  1. God, if exists, is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.
  2. If God is omniscient, he knows about a possible evil.
  3. If God is omnipotent, he can fix a possible evil.
  4. If God is omnibenevolent, God wants to correct a possible evil.
  5. Nevertheless, evil exists.
  6. Therefore God is either not omniscient, or not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.
  7. Therefore God does not exist.
This is a simple set of arguments. Believers, however, do not wish to accept it, and bring up all sorts of “explanations” to refute it.

These “explanations” vary in scope and depth. One of them is trying to insinuate that God tolerates some amount of evil, because it has positive side effects, which are greater than the negative direct effects of the evil itself. That is strictly a utilitarian approach.

Another one tries to prove that human free will is very important. God does not want “robots” and thus he is willing to tolerate some evil, because it is the corollary of free will. This attempt is bogus, the existence of free will does not explain the existence of evil, only the possibility of evil.

There is the “soul-building” explanation, which I refuted just above. I doubt that it will do a whole lot of good. People simply want to believe, no matter how irrational it is.
Evil in the world is not Gods’ idea, it is ours. There is a difference between God’s ordained will and His permissive will. God’s ordained will ultimatley is Heaven. However, in order to experience the joy of Heaven, namley the vision of His glory, we must be able to love Him. To love Him is to love His ways. In order to love we must make a choice. c.f. “If you love me you will obey my commands.” Because we need to make a choice in order to love, we need free will. Because we have free will there is the possibility that we will not choose God and His way but rather say not your will but mine be done.

Do you own any gold jewelry? Do you know that pure gold does not exist in nature? Only in mining it and purifying it in a fire and removing slag are we able to appreciate the beauty of pure gold. In the same way, holiness is the ends for which we were created. I can only speak for myself and I am not holy. However, through the pain of life, my mistakes and failures, the suffering I experience for no reason whatsoever, etc., if I cooperate with God’s grace, I will grow and become a better person. These trials in life are like fire. They purify us. They strengthen us.

Our faith is not irrational.

Your reasoning goes awry here:
  1. If God is omnibenevolent, God wants to correct a possible evil.
I will come back to this alter and explain why.tune in.
 
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Anonymous_1:
so I restate my previous questions.“What is your motivation for posting this thread?”
From ridicule God to show his hatred of God.
Remember Matt 27, 41-43?
“Likewise the chief priests with the scribes and elders mocked him and said, “He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’””
 
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Hitetlen:
What is your solution to this dilemma?
Hey Hitetlen-

I will second the sentiment that your posting here is an improvement.

As I understand your statement of the dilemma, how can the appropriate amount of “necessary evil” be regulated- without interfering with our free will- while simultaneously accomplishing the precise amount of “good” that was intended.

My first reaction is that -even theoretically - to be able to quantify good and evil in a balance as you have described is impossibly complex and our attempt to reduce it to levels which we can understand in all likelihood simply draws us further from the reality of how it is actually achieved. In addition, it is this very reduction and oversimplification which produces the apparent dilemma.
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Hitetlen:
Suppose that the raping, torturing and killing of 100 women brings along some greater good. If the perpertrators would stop at 99, this greater good would not be achieved. If they would go and commit these acts to 101 women, the greater good would still materialize, but the one extra rape would not be necessary.
You have attempted to fix the earthly good achieved with a specific necessary earthly evil when, in fact, we have no idea in the fullness of time which evils will be matched to which goods and at what point in time and what the “offsetting” relationship is. It appears you have assumed(when you say that stopping at 99 tortures a greater good would not be achieved) that there is a quantitatively fixed good - rather than several - to result. Again, this is more than likely a gross oversimplification which we are forced to employ due to our relatively infinitessimal intellect.

In addition, your claim at not having a dilemma due to being an atheist is not entirely accurate either. Among other things, to recognize the existence of an unnatural entity such as evil while not recognizing the source of it is a bit of a dilemma in itself.
 
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Hitetlen:
Here is a purely logical analysis:
Beginning a “logical” analysis with a false premise is never a good way to start things off.
  1. If God is omnibenevolent, God wants to correct a possible evil.
And your “logic” comes crashing to the ground right here.

Inserting your own “wants” into the Divine plan is neither logical nor supportable.
Believers, however, do not wish to accept it, and bring up all sorts of “explanations” to refute it.
Of course. The atheist, sensing the threat to the self-worship of his intellect, immediately denounces any challenge to his non-authority and garbage argument as “irrational.” Your set of proofs above takes the cake where irrationality is concerned. One wonders where you remain incapable of seeing it.
Another one tries to prove that human free will is very important. God does not want “robots” and thus he is willing to tolerate some evil, because it is the corollary of free will. This attempt is bogus, the existence of free will does not explain the existence of evil, only the possibility of evil.
Not bogus at all.

A world full of free human beings and lacking moral evil post-Fall is an intrinsic impossibility. C.S. Lewis mentioned this long ago. You’ve tried to reinvent the wheel several times here and it still is not working. Just as God “making a rock so heavy He cannot lift it” is one of those infantile atheistic outbursts desperately searching for arguments that cannot be made, so is your “refutation” above the only thing here that can be classified as bogus.
There is the “soul-building” explanation, which I refuted just above. I doubt that it will do a whole lot of good. People simply want to believe, no matter how irrational it is.
And here we come, yet again, * ad nauseam*, to the famous Freudian psychoanalytic standby of the atheist who has exhausted his previously insufficient means to convey his irrational philosophy.

When in doubt, when your “refutations” have failed miserably that is hard to pick out where your “logic” was begun (because the whole of it was illogical), when you have nothing more of substance to say, return to that standby, which is, simply, that you must convince yourself that the Christian is an idiot, a child in an adult’s body, incapable of reason, lacking sense, a pitiable piece of emotional wreckage clinging to vestiges of fairy tales.

You might toss some references to Oedipal complexes or Kinseyan sexual deviancy into the anti-Catholic cake you’ve baked yourself, just for consistency’s sake.

But, that we might stop the bandwidth-wasting campaign you’ve waged, you should be disabused of this mistaken notion at least.

The Catholic, far from being irrational, has selected the supremely rational course, having recognized the Supreme Good, identified Him as the End towards which the short life on Earth must be directed, and having opted to pursue the path that brings him to this End.

The atheist, ignoring clear metaphysical logic and irrefutable supernatural evidence, opts for the irrational course, convinces himself of its rationality “just because,” thinks himself possessive of a bulbous, superior intellect that dwarfs those “irrational” theists, and carries on with his delusions. What a sad mode of existence. Memory failing me at the moment, whoever it was that said that the atheist’s methodology requires more blind faith than any other has spoken truly.

The only thing you have succeeded in refuting in the course of your corrosive outbursts is any charitable attempt on the part of the posters to consider you someone worthy of rational exchange, you having laid quite a convincing claim to the irrational sector by now.
 
Mike O:
Beginning a “logical” analysis with a false premise is never a good way to start things off.

And your “logic” comes crashing to the ground right here.

Inserting your own “wants” into the Divine plan is neither logical nor supportable. Of course. The atheist, sensing the threat to the self-worship of his intellect, immediately denounces any challenge to his non-authority and garbage argument as “irrational.” Your set of proofs above takes the cake where irrationality is concerned. One wonders where you remain incapable of seeing it. Not bogus at all.

A world full of free human beings and lacking moral evil post-Fall is an intrinsic impossibility. C.S. Lewis mentioned this long ago. You’ve tried to reinvent the wheel several times here and it still is not working. Just as God “making a rock so heavy He cannot lift it” is one of those infantile atheistic outbursts desperately searching for arguments that cannot be made, so is your “refutation” above the only thing here that can be classified as bogus.

And here we come, yet again, * ad nauseam*, to the famous Freudian psychoanalytic standby of the atheist who has exhausted his previously insufficient means to convey his irrational philosophy.

When in doubt, when your “refutations” have failed miserably that is hard to pick out where your “logic” was begun (because the whole of it was illogical), when you have nothing more of substance to say, return to that standby, which is, simply, that you must convince yourself that the Christian is an idiot, a child in an adult’s body, incapable of reason, lacking sense, a pitiable piece of emotional wreckage clinging to vestiges of fairy tales.

You might toss some references to Oedipal complexes or Kinseyan sexual deviancy into the anti-Catholic cake you’ve baked yourself, just for consistency’s sake.

But, that we might stop the bandwidth-wasting campaign you’ve waged, you should be disabused of this mistaken notion at least.

The Catholic, far from being irrational, has selected the supremely rational course, having recognized the Supreme Good, identified Him as the End towards which the short life on Earth must be directed, and having opted to pursue the path that brings him to this End.

The atheist, ignoring clear metaphysical logic and irrefutable supernatural evidence, opts for the irrational course, convinces himself of its rationality “just because,” thinks himself possessive of a bulbous, superior intellect that dwarfs those “irrational” theists, and carries on with his delusions. What a sad mode of existence. Memory failing me at the moment, whoever it was that said that the atheist’s methodology requires more blind faith than any other has spoken truly.

The only thing you have succeeded in refuting in the course of your corrosive outbursts is any charitable attempt on the part of the posters to consider you someone worthy of rational exchange, you having laid quite a convincing claim to the irrational sector by now.
Hitetlen,

I’m sorry to say that he appears right. Please reconsider these arguments that you might understand them. Prove him wrong by being faithful reason.

Adam
 
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