The dilemma of Jesus as God

[Bahman]

Lets put fact together:

A) God knows future
B) Free will is the ability to decide freely knowing the options
C) Lets assume that God has free will

Now lets bring God/Jesus on the board. The key question is that how Jesus could be free for eternity? Jesus is of course was aware of future and he could not do contrary since that is against divine knowledge. This means that God has put himself in a situation which cannot do otherwise for eternity which is problematic since he will be powerless for eternity. In simple word, he cannot pick up a stone if the stone is supposed to be there hence he does not have any power and any ability.

 

[Sandraaustin]

Probably not a satisfactory answer, but the nature of the Holy Trinity as that the Three in One-- Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all in perfect conformity and unity with each other. One of them cannot have a separate will from the other(s). As Sister Mary used to say, it’s a mystery.

 

[meltzerboy]

Lets put fact together:

A) God knows future
B) Free will is the ability to decide freely knowing the options
C) Lets assume that God has free will

Now lets bring God/Jesus on the board. The key question is that how Jesus could be free for eternity? Jesus is of course was aware of future and he could not do contrary since that is against divine knowledge. This means that God has put himself in a situation which cannot do otherwise for eternity which is problematic since he will be powerless for eternity. In simple word, he cannot pick up a stone if the stone is supposed to be there hence he does not have any power and any ability.

Isn’t this dilemma also one concerning G-d even if He was not Incarnate in the Person of Jesus? That is, can a Being Who has free will also be One Who knows the future? There are some answers to this, but why do you think the dilemma is specific to Jesus?

 

[Tomdstone]

Isn’t this dilemma also one concerning G-d even if He was not Incarnate in the Person of Jesus? That is, can a Being Who has free will also be One Who knows the future? There are some answers to this, but why do you think the dilemma is specific to Jesus?

Because according to Catholic teaching Jesus is God, but Scripture indicates that Jesus wanted not his will but the will of the Father to be done:
Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
Also,
Jesus does not know the day or hour, but the Father does:
Mark 13:32
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

 

[St_Francis]

Probably not a satisfactory answer, but the nature of the Holy Trinity as that the Three in One-- Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all in perfect conformity and unity with each other. One of them cannot have a separate will from the other(s). As Sister Mary used to say, it’s a mystery.

Each Person in the Holy Trinity has His own will, but because They love Each Other infinitely, Their wills coincide.

 

[St_Francis]

Lets put fact together:

A) God knows future
B) Free will is the ability to decide freely knowing the options
C) Lets assume that God has free will

Now lets bring God/Jesus on the board. The key question is that how Jesus could be free for eternity? Jesus is of course was aware of future and he could not do contrary since that is against divine knowledge. This means that God has put himself in a situation which cannot do otherwise for eternity which is problematic since he will be powerless for eternity. In simple word, he cannot pick up a stone if the stone is supposed to be there hence he does not have any power and any ability.

God knows the future because He sees it, not because it’s pre-ordained. It’s kind of like watching a movie you’ve seen before and know the end of: you didn’t ordain the end but you know the end. Nevertheless, one might still comment as they see the main character about to make a huge mistake, No, no! Don’t do it! even tho they’ve already seen the movie.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Lets put fact together:

A) God knows future
B) Free will is the ability to decide freely knowing the options
C) Lets assume that God has free will

Now lets bring God/Jesus on the board. The key question is that how Jesus could be free for eternity? Jesus is of course was aware of future and he could not do contrary since that is against divine knowledge. This means that God has put himself in a situation which cannot do otherwise for eternity which is problematic since he will be powerless for eternity. In simple word, he cannot pick up a stone if the stone is supposed to be there hence he does not have any power and any ability.

God know the future.
God does not make choices, he freely wills to do what is good. ( Summa Theologiae, Part 1, ques 19, article 3;
dhspriory.org/thomas/english/summa/FP/FP019.html#FPQ19OUTP1

Jesus, as man, came in to the world at a given moment in time, he has not existed for all eternity. At the moment of his conception, he freely and irrevocably united his will to the Divine Nature of the Son of God who had assumed his human nature. So whatever he did as a man was willed by God. As a man he could have changed his mind, but this is only a hypothetical. But it is probably true that he puzzled over the same questions that normal men puzzle over. The Divine Nature didn’t compel him to do the mundane things of life one way or another. He was however committed to obey the Divine Nature in the Spiritual things related to God’s Nature and man’s salvation. The mundane things of this world are important only to this world and we can assume that God is always guiding everything toward its proper end, which is Himself. Even those things Jesus did as a man.

Once he had died and risen from the dead, there would be no question of changing his mind. I really don’t see a problem here. Perhaps you could cite an example where it would be a problem.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Each Person in the Holy Trinity has His own will, but because They love Each Other infinitely, Their wills coincide.

That is incorrect. Each of the Three Persons fully possesses the Divine Nature, which includes the Divine Intellect and the Divine Will.

Pax
Linus2nd

 

[Kurisu35712]

God know the future.
God does not make choices, he freely wills to do what is good. ( Summa Theologiae, Part 1, ques 19, article 3;
dhspriory.org/thomas/english/summa/FP/FP019.html#FPQ19OUTP1

Jesus, as man, came in to the world at a given moment in time, he has not existed for all eternity. At the moment of his conception, he freely and irrevocably united his will to the Divine Nature of the Son of God who had assumed his human nature. So whatever he did as a man was willed by God. As a man he could have changed his mind, but this is only a hypothetical. But it is probably true that he puzzled over the same questions that normal men puzzle over. The Divine Nature didn’t compel him to do the mundane things of life one way or another. He was however committed to obey the Divine Nature in the Spiritual things related to God’s Nature and man’s salvation. The mundane things of this world are important only to this world and we can assume that God is always guiding everything toward its proper end, which is Himself. Even those things Jesus did as a man.

Once he had died and risen from the dead, there would be no question of changing his mind. I really don’t see a problem here. Perhaps you could cite an example where it would be a problem.

Linus2nd

You may want to clarify that Jesus, as the Word and Son of God, has existed for all eternity, if your point was that Jesus had not always existed as a man.

 

[Bahman]

These are very good questions. I have to confess that I haven’t thought that far.

Isn’t this dilemma also one concerning G-d even if He was not Incarnate in the Person of Jesus?

This dilemma has theological and philosophical consequences.

That is, can a Being Who has free will also be One Who knows the future?

This depends on how you define free will but to me knowing future not only affects free but will as well. Theist God however is in state of timeless hence he could only perform one eternal act so he cannot perform any act afterward, hence no will and no free will. This God however cannot sustain creation as I discuss it in another thread meaning that we are dealing with another problem too. So it seems that there are several problems with theist God.

There are some answers to this, but why do you think the dilemma is specific to Jesus?

You might be correct in your observation but I have to think about your question further.

 

[Bahman]

God knows the future because He sees it, not because it’s pre-ordained. It’s kind of like watching a movie you’ve seen before and know the end of: you didn’t ordain the end but you know the end. Nevertheless, one might still comment as they see the main character about to make a huge mistake, No, no! Don’t do it! even tho they’ve already seen the movie.

The question is then how God could make further intervention in the future. He is helpless anyway. That is the price for knowing the future.

 

[Bahman]

God know the future.
God does not make choices, he freely wills to do what is good. ( Summa Theologiae, Part 1, ques 19, article 3;
dhspriory.org/thomas/english/summa/FP/FP019.html#FPQ19OUTP1

Jesus, as man, came in to the world at a given moment in time, he has not existed for all eternity. At the moment of his conception, he freely and irrevocably united his will to the Divine Nature of the Son of God who had assumed his human nature. So whatever he did as a man was willed by God. As a man he could have changed his mind, but this is only a hypothetical. But it is probably true that he puzzled over the same questions that normal men puzzle over. The Divine Nature didn’t compel him to do the mundane things of life one way or another. He was however committed to obey the Divine Nature in the Spiritual things related to God’s Nature and man’s salvation. The mundane things of this world are important only to this world and we can assume that God is always guiding everything toward its proper end, which is Himself. Even those things Jesus did as a man.

Once he had died and risen from the dead, there would be no question of changing his mind. I really don’t see a problem here. Perhaps you could cite an example where it would be a problem.

Linus2nd

The question is not about free will but will. Could Jesus have any will? No. Theist God by definition can only perform one eternal act hence he is not able to intervene further in creation since future is fixed.

 

[Tomdstone]

God knows the future because He sees it, not because it’s pre-ordained.

Jesus is God, but He does not know the day or the hour.
Mark 13:32
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

 

[DMITRIYL]

My only thought here is that God created logic, therefore it does not apply to Him.

 

[meltzerboy]

The question is not about free will but will. Could Jesus have any will? No. Theist God by definition can only perform one eternal act hence he is not able to intervene further in creation since future is fixed.

Who says that ONLY one act defines the theist G-d? And, according to your logic, why even ONE act if the act is outside of time since it is eternal? That is, if it is eternal, what kind of ACT are we talking about? Going back to the idea of only one act, even if there is only one, might it not incorporate ALL the changes we observe due to G-d’s intervention and humans’ interventions in the form of their behavior and prayers? How do we know all which that “one act,” which is eternal, may consist of?

 

[KidCatholic1]

Lets put fact together:

A) God knows future
B) Free will is the ability to decide freely knowing the options
C) Lets assume that God has free will

Now lets bring God/Jesus on the board. The key question is that how Jesus could be free for eternity? Jesus is of course was aware of future and he could not do contrary since that is against divine knowledge. This means that God has put himself in a situation which cannot do otherwise for eternity which is problematic since he will be powerless for eternity. In simple word, he cannot pick up a stone if the stone is supposed to be there hence he does not have any power and any ability.

Are you aware of the Lord, Liar, Lunatic Logic? If not, here’s a link to it:
existence-of-god.com/lord-liar-lunatic.html

 

[Bahman]

Who says that ONLY one act defines the theist G-d?

1. God is not subject to time
2. Two distinct acts means that the second act follows the first one hence time is involved
3. From (1) and (2) we can conclude that God can only perform one act

And, according to your logic, why even ONE act if the act is outside of time since it is eternal?

Please read previous comment.

That is, if it is eternal, what kind of ACT are we talking about?

An act which contain everything. I however wonder how one act can manifest itself in all changes we observe. To me it seems impossible.

Going back to the idea of only one act, even if there is only one, might it not incorporate ALL the changes we observe due to G-d’s intervention and humans’ interventions in the form of their behavior and prayers?

That is the way they think. The key question is however is that how one single act could manifest itself to such a diverse quality we observe? To me it is logically impossible.

How do we know all which that “one act,” which is eternal, may consist of?

I don’t understand your question.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

You may want to clarify that Jesus, as the Word and Son of God, has existed for all eternity, if your point was that Jesus had not always existed as a man.

If I didn’t make that clear, you just have. But to be precise, until he assumed a human nature the Son of God was not called Jesus.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

The question is not about free will but will. Could Jesus have any will? No. Theist God by definition can only perform one eternal act hence he is not able to intervene further in creation since future is fixed.

We are not dealing with Wikipedia definitions here but with the way the Catholic Church and Catholic philosophers and theologians have defined the issue.

He does not need to interfer, he does all things in one act of the will, he fulfills all contingencies with one act of the will, nothing is left to chance. So he does not have to ’ intervene ’ in anything. He seems to ’ intervene ’ only in our human way of thinklng. As far as God is concerned, the Plan of Creation and of salvation has been completed, he awaits only for us to do our part and read the rest of the book.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

We are not dealing with Wikipedia definitions here but with the way the Catholic Church and Catholic philosophers and theologians have defined the issue.

He does not need to interfer, he does all things in one act of the will, he fulfills all contingencies with one act of the will, nothing is left to chance. So he does not have to ’ intervene ’ in anything. He seems to ’ intervene ’ only in our human way of thinklng. As far as God is concerned, the Plan of Creation and of salvation has been completed, he awaits only for us to do our part and read the rest of the book.

Linus2nd

It is not about whether he has to intervene or not. He cannot change things at all.