The dilemma of Jesus as God

[Linusthe2nd]

Who says that ONLY one act defines the theist G-d? And, according to your logic, why even ONE act if the act is outside of time since it is eternal? That is, if it is eternal, what kind of ACT are we talking about? Going back to the idea of only one act, even if there is only one, might it not incorporate ALL the changes we observe due to G-d’s intervention and humans’ interventions in the form of their behavior and prayers? How do we know all which that “one act,” which is eternal, may consist of?

He is right you know. The future is ’ fixed, ’ but it is ’ fixed ’ having taken into account all our actions, prayers, etc. God is just waiting for us to read the rest of the book. And of course only God know how it turns out. But you see it is we who are writing the book! We are writing and reading at the same time. Or maybe I should say that God has written large and we are writing small and he is the only one who has read the whole book.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

He is right you know. The future is ’ fixed, ’ but it is ’ fixed ’ having taken into account all our actions, prayers, etc. God is just waiting for us to read the rest of the book. And of course only God know how it turns out. But you see it is we who are writing the book! We are writing and reading at the same time. Or maybe I should say that God has written large and we are writing small and he is the only one who has read the whole book.

Linus2nd

By the way, did God know the content of book before creation or after? He couldn’t make the right creation not knowing the content otherwise he decided about content of the book hence free will is a delusion.

 

[Tomdstone]

Are you aware of the Lord, Liar, Lunatic Logic? If not, here’s a link to it:
existence-of-god.com/lord-liar-lunatic.html

Jehovah’s Witnesses and others believe that Jesus is Lord, not divine, and not liar or lunatic. Their interpretation of the Scriptural passages differ from what is given in the link.

 

[CrossofChrist]

True freedom consists of being able to do what is right, what is true. So everything Jesus did had a purpose in God’s plan, he lived entirely according to the will of God.

 

[St_Francis]

That is incorrect. Each of the Three Persons fully possesses the Divine Nature, which includes the Divine Intellect and the Divine Will.

Pax
Linus2nd

Thank you for the correction. I guess I was confused by Christ’s saying, “But Thy will, not Mine be done.”

 

[St_Francis]

The question is then how God could make further intervention in the future. He is helpless anyway. That is the price for knowing the future.

He is not helpless. He can intervene whenever He wants to. He just can see from His position outside time that He will do so.

Remember that God is not like us–He can do things we can not really imagine.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

It is not about whether he has to intervene or not. He cannot change things at all.

I just explained, God changes nothing he has caused, it only appears so from the human point of view. To God, everything happens Now. he has planned every contingency, every miracle. He just waits for us to carry out what he already know what we will do, for everything to happen as he planned it to happen.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

By the way, did God know the content of book before creation or after? He couldn’t make the right creation not knowing the content otherwise he decided about content of the book hence free will is a delusion.

He planned the whole book, its idea existed eternally in his mind. You are anthropromorphizing God. He is not like us, he knows and wills eternally, he has willed eternally what the contents of the book will be. And he freely willed to carry out his plan, he is not forced to. Your problem is that you don’t want God to be who he is, to be able to do the things he does. You just don’t want an Omnipotent, Omniscient God to exist, so you try to find all kinds of excuses to get rid of him. But you can’t do that, he is Who he is whether or not you like it, he has the power to do what he does whether or not you like it.

Linus2nd

 

[Bahman]

True freedom consists of being able to do what is right, what is true. So everything Jesus did had a purpose in God’s plan, he lived entirely according to the will of God.

Hence he was not a human since he did not have any will.

 

[Tomdstone]

I just explained, God changes nothing he has caused,

I don’t think so. In the Old Testament, there was no Savior, even though Adam and Eve had sinned and passed on original sin to everyone. But God changed all that with the Incarnation and the birth of Christ. After the Incarnation, we were able to wash away original sin by Baptism and we have the Catholic Church.

 

[Bahman]

I just explained, God changes nothing he has caused, it only appears so from the human point of view. To God, everything happens Now. he has planned every contingency, every miracle. He just waits for us to carry out what he already know what we will do, for everything to happen as he planned it to happen.
Linus2nd

We exist hence God has not any eternal act available anymore.

 

[Bahman]

He planned the whole book, its idea existed eternally in his mind. You are anthropromorphizing God. He is not like us, he knows and wills eternally, he has willed eternally what the contents of the book will be. And he freely willed to carry out his plan, he is not forced to. Your problem is that you don’t want God to be who he is, to be able to do the things he does. You just don’t want an Omnipotent, Omniscient God to exist, so you try to find all kinds of excuses to get rid of him. But you can’t do that, he is Who he is whether or not you like it, he has the power to do what he does whether or not you like it.
Linus2nd

I used the same analogy you were using and I am very well aware of what I am writing.

How detailed was the idea in his mind? For example did exist a being like Bahman which does X at Y etc. How I could have free will then?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

We exist hence God has not any eternal act available anymore.

Now that is silly. God’s eternal act is eternal, he does not change. So what he does in his eternal act does not change.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I used the same analogy you were using and I am very well aware of what I am writing.

How detailed was the idea in his mind? For example did exist a being like Bahman which does X at Y etc. How I could have free will then?

He knows whatever you did, are doing, or will do. But you have to live out your life, making all the good and bad choices you are to make. You are entirely free. I am writing this freely, nothing compels me to write or to say one thing rather than another. It is just that God knows what I will do, what I will write - but I have to do it and I have to do it the way God wants. I am more than an actor playing a part, I am playing for an eternal reward, it is just that God knows what will happen - right down to the last minute.

Psalm 138

LORD, you have probed me, you know me:

2you know when I sit and stand;
you understand my thoughts from afar.

3You sift through my travels and my rest;

with all my ways you are familiar.

4Even before a word is on my tongue,

LORD, you know it all.

5Behind and before you encircle me

and rest your hand upon me.

6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,

far too lofty for me to reach.
7Where can I go from your spirit?

From your presence, where can I flee?

8If I ascend to the heavens, you are there;

if I lie down in Sheol, there you are.
9If I take the wings of dawn*
and dwell beyond the sea,*
10Even there your hand guides me,

your right hand holds me fast.

11If I say, “Surely darkness shall hide me,

and night shall be my light”*—

12Darkness is not dark for you,

and night shines as the day.

Darkness and light are but one.
II13You formed my inmost being;

you knit me in my mother’s womb.
14I praise you, because I am wonderfully made;

wonderful are your works!

My very self you know.

15My bones are not hidden from you,

When I was being made in secret,

fashioned in the depths of the earth.*
16Your eyes saw me unformed;

in your book all are written down;
my days were shaped, before one came to be.

III17How precious to me are your designs, O God;

how vast the sum of them!

18Were I to count them, they would outnumber the sands;

when I complete them, still you are with me.
19When you would destroy the wicked, O God,

the bloodthirsty depart from me!
20Your foes who conspire a plot against you

are exalted in vain.

IV21Do I not hate, LORD, those who hate you?

Those who rise against you, do I not loathe?
22With fierce hatred I hate them,

enemies I count as my own.

23Probe me, God, know my heart;

try me, know my thoughts.
24See if there is a wicked path in me;

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I used the same analogy you were using and I am very well aware of what I am writing.

How detailed was the idea in his mind? For example did exist a being like Bahman which does X at Y etc. How I could have free will then?

Yes, he knows all you will do. And you will do all he knows; not because he knows it but because it is your life to live. The fact that he knows what you will do does not deprive you of your freedom, you are always free to do what is right and good or wrong and evil.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

We exist hence God has not any eternal act available anymore.

God’s action is eternal, but he wills it in our time. It is we who are in time not God.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

It is not about whether he has to intervene or not. He cannot change things at all.

Right. But from our vantage point he seems at times to change things. He foresees all in his eternal act.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I don’t think so. In the Old Testament, there was no Savior, even though Adam and Eve had sinned and passed on original sin to everyone. But God changed all that with the Incarnation and the birth of Christ. After the Incarnation, we were able to wash away original sin by Baptism and we have the Catholic Church.

That is all true, we have to live our lives - and he knows what we will do and has provided ( in his eternal act ) for every contingency so that his will will be done.

All these events in the history of his Revelation are indeed miraculous, but he did them in his one eternal act. It is only from our time bound perspective that he seems to be changing things, to be intervening. And from our perspective he is intervening. But even so, he does all things, from the beginning of the world to its end by his one eternal act.

Its a very interesting thought and of course I welcome any corrections. But I think my perspective is correct. I wish Imelhan would jump in on this.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Who says that ONLY one act defines the theist G-d? And, according to your logic, why even ONE act if the act is outside of time since it is eternal? That is, if it is eternal, what kind of ACT are we talking about? Going back to the idea of only one act, even if there is only one, might it not incorporate ALL the changes we observe due to G-d’s intervention and humans’ interventions in the form of their behavior and prayers? How do we know all which that “one act,” which is eternal, may consist of?

You can blame me for that. And of course I welcome correction. Read what I have said to Bahman and see if it doesn’t make sense. God does intervene in our lives but it is by his one eternal act. He has provided for every contingency by that act. God’s eternal act provides for everything.

He knows whatever you did, are doing, or will do. But you have to live out your life, making all the good and bad choices you are to make. You are entirely free. I am writing this freely, nothing compels me to write or to say one thing rather than another. It is just that God knows what I will do, what I will write - but I have to do it and I have to do it the way God wants. I am more than an actor playing a part, I am playing for an eternal reward, it is just that God knows what will happen - right down to the last minute.

Psalm 138

LORD, you have probed me, you know me:

2you know when I sit and stand;
you understand my thoughts from afar.

3You sift through my travels and my rest;

with all my ways you are familiar.

4Even before a word is on my tongue,

LORD, you know it all.

5Behind and before you encircle me

and rest your hand upon me.

6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,

far too lofty for me to reach.
7Where can I go from your spirit?

From your presence, where can I flee?

8If I ascend to the heavens, you are there;

if I lie down in Sheol, there you are.
9If I take the wings of dawn*
and dwell beyond the sea,*
10Even there your hand guides me,

your right hand holds me fast.

11If I say, “Surely darkness shall hide me,

and night shall be my light”*—

12Darkness is not dark for you,

and night shines as the day.

Darkness and light are but one.
II13You formed my inmost being;

you knit me in my mother’s womb.
14I praise you, because I am wonderfully made;

wonderful are your works!

My very self you know.

15My bones are not hidden from you,

When I was being made in secret,

fashioned in the depths of the earth.*
16Your eyes saw me unformed;

in your book all are written down;
my days were shaped, before one came to be.

III17How precious to me are your designs, O God;

how vast the sum of them!

18Were I to count them, they would outnumber the sands;

when I complete them, still you are with me.
19When you would destroy the wicked, O God,

the bloodthirsty depart from me!
20Your foes who conspire a plot against you

are exalted in vain.

IV21Do I not hate, LORD, those who hate you?

Those who rise against you, do I not loathe?
22With fierce hatred I hate them,

enemies I count as my own.

23Probe me, God, know my heart;

try me, know my thoughts.
24See if there is a wicked path in me;

Linus2nd

 

[CrossofChrist]

Hence he was not a human since he did not have any will.

This is not true. A will is truly free only if it is united with God’s will, God being the source of all freedom.

Another thing: united =/= absorbed. You are suggesting a Christian heresy known as Monothelitism.

Benedict XVI on the agony of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2012/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20120201_en.html