The dilemma of Jesus as God

[hasantas]

Lets put fact together:

A) God knows future
B) Free will is the ability to decide freely knowing the options
C) Lets assume that God has free will

Now lets bring God/Jesus on the board. The key question is that how Jesus could be free for eternity? Jesus is of course was aware of future and he could not do contrary since that is against divine knowledge. This means that God has put himself in a situation which cannot do otherwise for eternity which is problematic since he will be powerless for eternity. In simple word, he cannot pick up a stone if the stone is supposed to be there hence he does not have any power and any ability.

The propblem is the assuming Jesus to have two natures. I cannot understand that. If God has incarnated then how can that human nature be free from divine nature. And ıf a divine nature can be change how can that nature stay as divine? If that human nature is the part of divine nature then there is no mean to assume a free will apart from divine will. If that human nature is realy a humanbeing hence there is no mean to say that nature is Holy or Son of God. To assume Three God in one person and additionally to assume one Son in two persons as Divine nature and Human nature… That is getting problematic. I want only one God whom I will know invoke.

 

[Bahman]

Now that is silly. God’s eternal act is eternal, he does not change. So what he does in his eternal act does not change.
Linus2nd

No, that is not silly. Future is fixed isn’t it? We are free since we don’t know it. God however knows the future hence his only eternal act can only manifest itself in one way. Isn’t it?

 

[Bahman]

He knows whatever you did, are doing, or will do. But you have to live out your life, making all the good and bad choices you are to make. You are entirely free. I am writing this freely, nothing compels me to write or to say one thing rather than another. It is just that God knows what I will do, what I will write - but I have to do it and I have to do it the way God wants. I am more than an actor playing a part, I am playing for an eternal reward, it is just that God knows what will happen - right down to the last minute.

Psalm 138

LORD, you have probed me, you know me:

2you know when I sit and stand;
you understand my thoughts from afar.

3You sift through my travels and my rest;

with all my ways you are familiar.

4Even before a word is on my tongue,

LORD, you know it all.

5Behind and before you encircle me

and rest your hand upon me.

6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,

far too lofty for me to reach.
7Where can I go from your spirit?

From your presence, where can I flee?

8If I ascend to the heavens, you are there;

if I lie down in Sheol, there you are.
9If I take the wings of dawn*
and dwell beyond the sea,*
10Even there your hand guides me,

your right hand holds me fast.

11If I say, “Surely darkness shall hide me,

and night shall be my light”*—

12Darkness is not dark for you,

and night shines as the day.

Darkness and light are but one.
II13You formed my inmost being;

you knit me in my mother’s womb.
14I praise you, because I am wonderfully made;

wonderful are your works!

My very self you know.

15My bones are not hidden from you,

When I was being made in secret,

fashioned in the depths of the earth.*
16Your eyes saw me unformed;

in your book all are written down;
my days were shaped, before one came to be.

III17How precious to me are your designs, O God;

how vast the sum of them!

18Were I to count them, they would outnumber the sands;

when I complete them, still you are with me.
19When you would destroy the wicked, O God,

the bloodthirsty depart from me!
20Your foes who conspire a plot against you

are exalted in vain.

IV21Do I not hate, LORD, those who hate you?

Those who rise against you, do I not loathe?
22With fierce hatred I hate them,

enemies I count as my own.

23Probe me, God, know my heart;

try me, know my thoughts.
24See if there is a wicked path in me;

Linus2nd

This was pretty long. I think we both understand what we mean. Still there exist a problem I cannot crack it in and open it up to you. Lets see what is your answer to this question: Did God had a plan for creation? How much of this plan was related to what he knows in details? How we could be free if plan exactly match knowledge?

 

[hasantas]

God know the future.
God does not make choices, he freely wills to do what is good. ( Summa Theologiae, Part 1, ques 19, article 3;
dhspriory.org/thomas/english/summa/FP/FP019.html#FPQ19OUTP1

Jesus, as man, came in to the world at a given moment in time, he has not existed for all eternity. At the moment of his conception, he freely and irrevocably united his will to the Divine Nature of the Son of God who had assumed his human nature. So whatever he did as a man was willed by God. As a man he could have changed his mind, but this is only a hypothetical. But it is probably true that he puzzled over the same questions that normal men puzzle over. The Divine Nature didn’t compel him to do the mundane things of life one way or another. He was however committed to obey the Divine Nature in the Spiritual things related to God’s Nature and man’s salvation. The mundane things of this world are important only to this world and we can assume that God is always guiding everything toward its proper end, which is Himself. Even those things Jesus did as a man.

Once he had died and risen from the dead, there would be no question of changing his mind. I really don’t see a problem here. Perhaps you could cite an example where it would be a problem.

Linus2nd

Is human nature of Jesus so important and divine which could be reason of salvation? If that nature ıs only a human nature what make that different and more important from other human natures? If you say divine nature of Jesus assumed that human nature then ı have some questions. Divine nature of God is out of time and place so we cannot assume that the divine nature of God incarnated in object! There is no where in which there is no God but God is not in anywhere. I mean God effects and acts in every point and atoms but indeed God is not in that. If we assume that God incarnated in time and matter that conflicts with eternal attributes of God as Bahman points a bit.

 

[Bahman]

This is not true. A will is truly free only if it is united with God’s will, God being the source of all freedom.

Another thing: united =/= absorbed. You are suggesting a Christian heresy known as Monothelitism.

Benedict XVI on the agony of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2012/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20120201_en.html

Will is the the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action. He knows future hence he knows exactly that he cannot do X at moment t. There is only one future and he knows hence he has to act accordingly.

 

[meltzerboy]

The propblem is the assuming Jesus to have two natures. I cannot understand that. If God has incarnated then how can that human nature be free from divine nature. And ıf a divine nature can be change how can that nature stay as divine? If that human nature is the part of divine nature then there is no mean to assume a free will apart from divine will. If that human nature is realy a humanbeing hence there is no mean to say that nature is Holy or Son of God. To assume Three God in one person and additionally to assume one Son in two persons as Divine nature and Human nature… That is getting problematic. I want only one God whom I will know invoke.

The Trinitarian Christian view of G-d does seem a bit complicated: Three distinct but not separate Persons equal to One G-d, G-d’s becoming Incarnate in the human Person of Jesus, and Jesus’ being both fully divine and fully human at the same time. It is quite a lot to absorb, and hence is considered to be not fully understandable by humans. But that is the Christian theology: take it or leave it. I suppose that is one of the reasons why both Islam and Judaism reject Christianity. As a Muslim student of mine once told me, G-d would not want humans to struggle so much determining the nature of His Being by making Himself appear so complex to our mind.

 

[hasantas]

This was pretty long. I think we both understand what we mean. Still there exist a problem I cannot crack it in and open it up to you. Lets see what is your answer to this question: Did God had a plan for creation? How much of this plan was related to what he knows in details? How we could be free if plan exactly match knowledge?

Everyhuman has a free will. God has will and also God has all knowing knowledge which knows what human’s will chooses. Knowing of God is timelessly that mean God is not related to time as human is. That means God does not force and impose human to make choices but God knows all choices as timelessly which did/doing/will be done by free will of humans.

God allow human whatever he wants and choose and then God create that. The life is an exam to seperate the good and bad. So every one is free to choose the bad or good.

God knows all things because all attributes of God are eternal so knowledge of God is eternal.

There is a perfect order and laws in universe so ıf God had not gaven a free will to human then there would not be any justice. But God is not unjust.

 

[hasantas]

The Trinitarian Christian view of G-d does seem a bit complicated: Three distinct but not separate Persons equal to One G-d, G-d’s becoming Incarnate in the human Person of Jesus, and Jesus’ being both fully divine and fully human at the same time. It is quite a lot to absorb, and hence is considered to be not fully understandable by humans. But that is the Christian theology: take it or leave it. I suppose that is one of the reasons why both Islam and Judaism reject Christianity. As a Muslim student of mine once told me, G-d would not want humans to struggle so much determining the nature of His Being by making Himself appear so complex to our mind.

Islam does not reject Christianity totaly but Islam says some wrong thoughts got into Christianity by time. Otherwise Christianity is religion of Jesus whom Islam respect/confirm as a prophet like Moses.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

We exist hence God has not any eternal act available anymore.

You are wrong but you don’t seem able to understand why. If you want to believe God acts separately for everything that happens that is O.K. I think it is wrong, but no one has to hold that position. God is still the cause of everything that happens, he still keeps everything going, he still directs the universe.

Are you refusing to agree because you think this would violate thee " science " of evolution? It doesn’t.

Linus2nd

 

[pacloc]

What is being missed is that God’s word without interpretation from the Church seems to contradict itself about the topic of “predestination.” In some places, mostly in Paul’s letters, God’s plan in Christ was known from the beginning and the elect were chosen in the beginning. In other places in scripture we are told the fall into sin was our own, that God had made us perfect, we are told to hold on to the faith for fear we could lose it, etc.

What wise men in the early Church have realized is that the scriptures that seem to predestine us, really are not meant to be thought of as a plan that God has set in place with or without us, but are simply a way of explaining his power and wisdom in reconciling us from the beginning. It really is purely foreknowledge because of the way in which he created us in his image. His will, whether we fell or not, was for us to learn to be holy and enter into the divinity. (2 Peter 1:4) So from the human standpoint, one should never think that God is not free to do what he wills, but rather has perfectly brought divine life to those that want it.

 

[Bahman]

Islam does not reject Christianity totaly but Islam says some wrong thoughts got into Christianity by time. Otherwise Christianity is religion of Jesus whom Islam respect/confirm as a prophet like Moses.

Can we say this very same thing about Islam? How passage of God cannot get through?

 

[Bahman]

Everyhuman has a free will. God has will and also God has all knowing knowledge which knows what human’s will chooses. Knowing of God is timelessly that mean God is not related to time as human is. That means God does not force and impose human to make choices but God knows all choices as timelessly which did/doing/will be done by free will of humans.

God allow human whatever he wants and choose and then God create that. The life is an exam to seperate the good and bad. So every one is free to choose the bad or good.

God knows all things because all attributes of God are eternal so knowledge of God is eternal.

There is a perfect order and laws in universe so ıf God had not gaven a free will to human then there would not be any justice. But God is not unjust.

I am very aware of that position. My question was however about whether God could have a plan and whether that exactly match to what should happen?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This was pretty long. I think we both understand what we mean. Still there exist a problem I cannot crack it in and open it up to you. Lets see what is your answer to this question: Did God had a plan for creation? How much of this plan was related to what he knows in details? How we could be free if plan exactly match knowledge?

I don’t see a problem. He was free to create or not. He did so because he does whatever is good. And he knows everthing ahead of time. That is what he has Revealed, and he does not lie.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I used the same analogy you were using and I am very well aware of what I am writing.

How detailed was the idea in his mind? For example did exist a being like Bahman which does X at Y etc. How I could have free will then?

I don’t know how, I just know that is the way it is. We aren’t God. If we were God, we would know how.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I am very aware of that position. My question was however about whether God could have a plan and whether that exactly match to what should happen?

Yes, everything happens according to plan, at least in the broad outlines. His plan takes into account our free actions.

Linus2nd

 

[pacloc]

You do understand that if God makes all things in a predetermined manner, a fallen world serves no purpose, he could easily just give you the lessons learned in your life at the moment he created you and not create those that will not be in Heaven. Although it may not sound correct, our actions do make God respond, not the other way around. Otherwise you would make God the creator of sin and evil. That is why in response to the 1st Adam’s fall, God sent His son. It is a response. But in God’s power He foreknows all of these actions/responses.

 

[Bahman]

You are wrong but you don’t seem able to understand why. If you want to believe God acts separately for everything that happens that is O.K. I think it is wrong, but no one has to hold that position. God is still the cause of everything that happens, he still keeps everything going, he still directs the universe.

Are you refusing to agree because you think this would violate thee " science " of evolution? It doesn’t.

Linus2nd

Science? Huh. :bounce:

Are you replying to another post? God is allowed to do one eternal act which can manifest itself in all diverse thing we observe. How?

 

[tonyrey]

The Trinitarian Christian view of G-d does seem a bit complicated: Three distinct but not separate Persons equal to One G-d, G-d’s becoming Incarnate in the human Person of Jesus, and Jesus’ being both fully divine and fully human at the same time. It is quite a lot to absorb, and hence is considered to be not fully understandable by humans. But that is the Christian theology: take it or leave it. I suppose that is one of the reasons why both Islam and Judaism reject Christianity. As a Muslim student of mine once told me, G-d would not want humans to struggle so much determining the nature of His Being by making Himself appear so complex to our mind.

Anyone who claims to fully understand the nature of God is being presumptuous but we do know that love is more important than everything else. Nor is it complicated! It is the source of the greatest joy and fulfilment we can imagine. God’s nature is not determined by a need for simplicity and false economy. A multitude of gods would certainly be complicated but a solitary God would be the apotheosis of egoism.

We don’t have to struggle to understand the concept of a divine family. In our violent, shattered world we can all grasp the importance of peace and harmony. The truth is not to be found in extremes but in the simplicity of co-existence - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit eternally united by perfect love:

“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

John 14:25-26

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

John 17 20-26

 

[tonyrey]

Everyhuman has a free will. God has will and also God has all knowing knowledge which knows what human’s will chooses. Knowing of God is timelessly that mean God is not related to time as human is. That means God does not force and impose human to make choices but God knows all choices as timelessly which did/doing/will be done by free will of humans.

God allow human whatever he wants and choose and then God create that. The life is an exam to seperate the good and bad. So every one is free to choose the bad or good.

God knows all things because all attributes of God are eternal so knowledge of God is eternal.

There is a perfect order and laws in universe so ıf God had not gaven a free will to human then there would not be any justice. But God is not unjust.

Free will is part of God’s plan. There is no contradiction whatsoever unless an arbitrary limit is imposed on divine omnipotence.

 

[Bahman]

I don’t know how, I just know that is the way it is. We aren’t God. If we were God, we would know how.

Linus2nd

So you agree that there is a problem we both cannot understand. That is a good progress. We however could understand that far. Doesn’t this mean that the concept of God as it is constructed is wrong.